Shastar vidiya vs gatka

[Singh559]

There is no written evidence, yes, but travelling all the way to Mecca and beyond it would seem logical Guru Sahib probably kept shastar as well. Guru Nanak Dev ji tells about comparing spirituality an love for waheguru with shastar and tells of battled of Mughals with Pathans. Painting Sat Guru Nanak Dev ji as only one way and being separate from the message of Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is part of the shiv sheba and rss agenda. Though Guru Nanak Dev Jo didn't need to use the kirpan or shastar he still had it and knew how to use them.

Guru Nanak Dev ji is antar jaami and thus passed Gurgaddi knowing all that is to come. There was a reason for everything even if we don't understand it.

[Guest]

He wore a blue chola sahib when he went to Mecca madina according to bhai gurdas ji vaars.

[akalinihang96]

Whether Bhai Bala really existed or not is open to question. Just read the posts on Bhai Bala janamsakhi on this forum. Sikhi is not some ancient mystery cult with some adherents only allowed some knowledge and other full knowledge. You are playing a dangerous game if you try and go that route. Tomorrow someone will turn you said and quoting some oral source will state something new which was never known before. Are you going to accept this? As for oral tradition, who is the oldest Nihang living today? Only he can confirm whether something was a part of oral tradition when he first heard it, whereas if something is written down we know that that was a belief known at the time of writing. You can claim that I hate Nihangs all you like, but if an Udasi or Singh Sabha follower were to come on her and make statement which could not be verified then I would write the same about their belief.

I never said or implied (you did) that Sikhi is a mystery cult where some knowledge is only given to some. What I wrote was when the time was right, upon instruction of Guru Arjan Dev Ji maharaj Baba Buddha Ji taught shaster vidya to Guru Hargobind Sahib. The oral traditions held by Nihangs, nirmala, udasi and sevapanthi samparyde date back to times of our Guru Sahiban, these are not no man made jathebandis or cults formed in the glorification of an individual, these were orders started by the hands and blessings of mahraj themselves. some stuff could not be recorded due to hostile times being faced, such as when the Khalsa lived on horse back in jungles. It was common practice (still is in the dal) for traditions to be passed on orally. If missionaries or cultist people have a problem with that then tough. The original true Khalsa know what's what

[acsap]

Yes, let’s keep on making our own history via "oral tradition". I am glad that the Guru Sahibs ensure that the Guru Granth Sahib was in a written form, even though oral tradition existed at that time. Otherwise, everything will be nihung history.

[Singh559]

Yes, let’s keep on making our own history via "oral tradition". I am glad that the Guru Sahibs ensure that the Guru Granth Sahib was in a written form, even though oral tradition existed at that time. Otherwise, everything will be nihung history.

How does knowing how to use a sword have anything to that?

[akalinihang96]

Yes, let’s keep on making our own history via "oral tradition". I am glad that the Guru Sahibs ensure that the Guru Granth Sahib was in a written form, even though oral tradition existed at that time. Otherwise, everything will be nihung history.

You obviously have a problem with Nihangs. Realise one thing, there is no difference between the Khalsa and Nihangs! Nihangs are the original Khalsa as ordained by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, they are sampooran form of a khalsa and those who know their history know this to be true. Nihang is a spiritual state as well as explained

In bani. I refuse to use bani as a means to get across a point of view so will let you do your own khoj.

[N30S1NGH]

Two Forms of Vidiya - Gatka and Shastarvidiya - Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale

The following passage is from 'Gurbani Paat Darpan' written by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranvale. Baba Ji is explaining two forms of vidiya [science/learning], the first being for show and the second being the real vidiya. Baba Ji uses the example of one performing exhibition Gatka as the false vidiya, whereas the real soorma [warrior] vidiya is where there is no show/exhitibtion.

From Gurbani Paat Darpan, page 37-38.

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ਵਿਦਿੱਆ ਦੋ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ।

There are two forms of 'Vidiya' [science]

(੧) ਇਕ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ੳਹ ਦਿਖਾਵੇ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾਉਣਾ, ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ 'ਤੇ, ਛਾਤੀ, ਪੱਟ ਆਦਿਕ ਤੇ ਆਲੂ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਖਾ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਖੂਬੀ ਇਹੋ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਹੜੀ ਚੀਜ ਉਪਰ ਪਈ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਆਲੂ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਗਾਜਰ, ਜਾਂ ਮੂਲੀ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਰੋਮ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ੳਹ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਹੁਨਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰਕੇ, ਆਪ ਦਾ ਪੇਟ ਤੋਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

The first is called Pate Baaz [swinging a stick], that form is done for show, and to display their performance, placing potatos on someones face, chest, back etc and covering their eyes, that is their skills. Whatever is placed on top [of someone], whether it is potatos, carrots, or radish, they cut that without cutting that person. This form [of vidiya] is done to show their own performance and accomplishment in order to make the viewers happy and to fill their own belly's [acquiring money for it], this is the 'vidiya' [science/learning] of Pate Baaz [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

ਏਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪੰਡਤ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਸ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪ ੳਹ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਦਾਰਥ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਆਪ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ, ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ੳਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

[similar to this] form is a one who becomes a Pandit scholar who performs discourse as preaching to get people to praise him, yet he himself cannot enshrine [what he preaches], he gets them to praise them, and gets material wealth, but he himself cannot attain what he preaches, and still for people preaches sermons of wisdom. That type of vidiya [science/learning] is like that of the Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

(੨) ਦੂਸਰੀ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ, ਸੂਰਮਾ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੋ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਨ ਕੇ ਜੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

The second type of Vidiya [science/learning] is that of a warrior, a courageous warrior adorns weapons and goes to war, giving the enemies martyrdom and attaining victory, or getting martyrdom themselves.

ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । ਸੂਰਮਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਕੇਵਲ ਦਿਖਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਤਲੀ ਚੀਜ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਹੇਠਾਂ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਗਣ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਗਾ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਾਖਿਆਤ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

In this way the way of the warrior is like Brahm Vidiya. A warrior kills with his weapons, where as a Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj] merely only does a exhibition, they only break the top [item] and do not hit any limbs. A [real] warrior breaks all the limbs of ignorance and attains great bliss while living in the visible [sargun] form.

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The teachings of Real Shastar Vidiya are essential to learn as a Singh. As Giani Gian Singh Ji writes in his Naveen Panth Prakash, page 1571, Vol. 3:

ਸਿਖ੍ਯਾ ਜੰਗ ਕਰਨ ਕੀ ਦੱਈਏ । ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਮ ਇਨਿ ਕੇ ਰਖਵੱਈਏ ।

Give the teachings of how to wage war, in this way you shall retain the name Singh

[PAL 07]

It is a well known fact that Baba Buddah Ji gave Sri Hargobind Ji the miri piri talwars and were there Ustad. Also Gurbani clearly states that Guru Nanak Dev Ji came to the world with knowledge of all the arts wheras previous avtars had limited knowledge i.e. Krishan had 16 guns and Ram Chandra had 14 and previous to him they all had less Gun. So to suggest Guru Nanak Dev Ji had no knowledge of shahstar vidiya would be incorrect.

My opinion is that the term shastar vidiya is a generic term referring to many styles of martial arts. For example the term percussion can refer to Tabla, Pakhavaj, Mridang, Dhol etc. Gatka is the term referring to the Sikhi martial art form but this is derived from kalaripayattu which is an ancient martial form (see below) It is important to remember that a lot of Sikhism is infact been in existence since ancient times. For example the sangeet vidiya in Gurbani has been in existence way before the Guru's times.

When you say Gatka today - the showbiz chopping up of melons comes to mind. But i believe that this is the result of years and years of decay of the true vidiya.

In terms of gatka v shastar vidiya well first of all what exactly does shastar vidiya mean ?? martial arts taught in the army, jeet kun do, shaoilin martial arts? Personally if you look at good Gatka Ustads like Bhai Harjinder Singh or Bhai Gurtej Singh (resident s of UK) you will see that they are extremely formidable people and highly respected by other martail artists/formsand that they have worked hard and risen up to the top, the high end of gatka is an eccelectic form incorporating techniques from all other styles with the view to kill asap.

[Cisco_Singh]

If Gatka is the traditional Khalsa martial art...why does it have no concept of unarmed combat ? What do you do if you havent got any weapons ? Why does Gatka have no concept of formation fighting, battle formations,etc? Why are all the weapons used in Gatka the wrong weight, length etc..Puratan shaters have specific weights, lengths etc.,.. Why does Gaka have no conept of how different weapons are used in different ways..not just swung around for no reason. Why does Gakta always have choerographed wepon on shield strikes...proper swordsmen...would NEVER seek to strike their wepons on shields puroposely...

Gatka is a very very basic art at best..maybe good for introducing very yound children to basic footwork and sticks, it's definitely cannot be considered a complete martial art, yet alone a battlefield art. Which high level martial artists have praised Gatka as a high loevel martial art ??

At least Shastar Vidiya s gaining recongnition amingst high profile martial artists..Pat O Malley, Mauil Mornie to name a couple...

[Singh559]

If Gatka is the traditional Khalsa martial art...why does it have no concept of unarmed combat ? What do you do if you havent got any weapons ? Why does Gatka have no concept of formation fighting, battle formations,etc? Why are all the weapons used in Gatka the wrong weight, length etc..Puratan shaters have specific weights, lengths etc.,.. Why does Gaka have no conept of how different weapons are used in different ways..not just swung around for no reason. Why does Gakta always have choerographed wepon on shield strikes...proper swordsmen...would NEVER seek to strike their wepons on shields puroposely...

Gatka is a very very basic art at best..maybe good for introducing very yound children to basic footwork and sticks, it's definitely cannot be considered a complete martial art, yet alone a battlefield art. Which high level martial artists have praised Gatka as a high loevel martial art ??

At least Shastar Vidiya s gaining recongnition amingst high profile martial artists..Pat O Malley, Mauil Mornie to name a couple...

Real shaster are meant to be used and not practice, they are meant for flesh only, but can take a good practical beating in warfare. Gatka is just a small part of the knowledge of shaster.

If for example I have a firangi (a real one), I can't use it like a Khanda, now can I? I can't spin it like I do in gatka, now can I? If I were to find out how to use this you can use common sense and if you have a background in swordsmanship you will understand the angles and how the firangi is supposed to be used (can be used similar to a rapier and long sword - both attributes).

As for warfare formations, we can examine historical texts from Sikh and non Sikh sources to examine what kind of battles Sikhs fought in. In a book I read called Siques, Tigers or Thieves it talks about Sikhs used to part take in guerrilla warfare and would do something they would call "two and a half strikes) and then retreat. It was a kind of psychological warfare meant to allow small numbers fight against thousands. Martial ability, horsemanship, fearlessness and mastery of the sword and musket combined with this art of two and a half "vaars" scared the Mughal fauj to bits.

As for actual battle formations, there is no specific "list" that Sikhs made for what was best. If the time arose that we needed to go into jungles and fight against the Mughals, we would develop such formations again...

Don't confuse advertising a product called shastar vidiya with someone's personal agenda/opinion.