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How is the reading going? How far have you gone? Or are you here only to educate us on Pakistan's defense achievements? What exactly is your purpose on here? Why do you keep elating yourself by putting India/Indians down? Trust me, we don't give a damn, because the same Indian defenses (army-air force-navy) was used against the Sikhs during Operation Bluestar. You are wasting your time trying to prove anything. We've told you several times before that your folks didn't stand a chance against the Sikh soldiers, you can twist and turn it any way you like or want to. Your cricketers like Aaquib Javed have also confessed the same about Sikhs being in the Indian cricket team being an issue/concern for them. Read Jangnama by Qazi Nur Mohammad to erase all doubts. Your facts, figures and stats don't scare us one single bit, so chill. We know what we're made of and deep down you do too.

Jonny veer, I'd be nice if this guy didn't sound subtly obnoxious in his posts. He doesn't make direct insulting comments, yet presumes that everyone on here is dumb. If you see the kind of remarks he makes in between his messages, you can sense that he considers Sikhs to be fools, for which I don't blame him. Several (not all) Paki Punjabis tend to believe that even though they themselves may not have finished high school (saying that based on experience). In the past whenever we've had Hindus/Muslims on here posting the same kind of stuff he has, we (including myself) have responded maturely with facts/statistics, our references have been researches and write ups by scholars and even Gurbani tuks. Even this time I haven't been the one to initiate any sort of harsh comments, it has been this dude's tone in his posts where he does his best in humiliating whoever he doesn't agree with.

There is a way to conduct a discussion/debate/conversation. There is a way to respectfully disagree. I have always followed it in the past but this one time I couldn't stop myself from letting loose whatever harshness you might have sensed in my replies to him. Not once have I said a word against Islam, or the Quran, or Hazrat Muhammad Sahib, and he has complimented that as well, which is appreciable. That is the sole reason you can still see him being able to post. If he can try hard to communicate his disagreement in a civilized manner and in a tone that is more of an educative/informative one rather than a degrading/humiliating one, I don't see any reason why anyone would go after him. No one on this forum is as stupid as he likes to think and big himself up. If he thinks he knows more than us, not a problem, feel free to share with us and we are glad to learn as long as you don't try to talk down the other person. But if the same is done in a way that sounds more like a mockery towards the person you're trying to teach, then thats not teaching, its pure insult. He has brought out the worst in me, all that you call harshness is NOT the real me, but just a response to a rude person who comes on a Sikh forum, looks down upon Sikhs as fools and claims his level of knowledge above that of others. If the same knowledge/information was passed onto us in a more "mature" manner, our response would be the same. We have had several other Muslims on here who did have disagreeing views. We exchanged our views, somethings they learnt, and we learnt somethings as well. None was so severely rude as this guy. It just goes to show that knowledge doesn't guarantee wisdom or maturity, it just adds to one's arrogance and vanity. I am the last person to be sensitive to the kind of language he uses, but if someone expects respect, one has to take the first step to give it. As they say in Punjabi, "ijjat karo, ijjar kraao". Besides, we don't need to beg for respect from such folks, but just wanted to get the point across that you can't come on a Sikh forum and indirectly imply that Sikhs are fools. As simple as that.

If going forward he is ready to post in a civilized manner without poking fun at those who "in his opinion" don't know as much as he does, I am ready to reciprocate the same. But if he continues to be rude and post in degrading language, then please forgive me veer, you won't see this guy on here for a very long time.

I am not complaining, because I have the option not to, and veer I am sure you know exactly what I mean :) . I am not warning anyone either because some people just can't change, lol. All I am doing is offering an opportunity to calm down the atmosphere on here. So the wise thing to do would be to make use of it while the offer is still open, and before its too late ;) .

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How is the reading going? How far have you gone? Or are you here only to educate us on Pakistan's defense achievements? What exactly is your purpose on here? Why do you keep elating yourself by putting India/Indians down? Trust me, we don't give a damn, because the same Indian defenses (army-air force-navy) was used against the Sikhs during Operation Bluestar. You are wasting your time trying to prove anything. We've told you several times before that your folks didn't stand a chance against the Sikh soldiers, you can twist and turn it any way you like or want to. Your cricketers like Aaquib Javed have also confessed the same about Sikhs being in the Indian cricket team being an issue/concern for them. Read Jangnama by Qazi Nur Mohammad to erase all doubts. Your facts, figures and stats don't scare us one single bit, so chill. We know what we're made of and deep down you do too.

Jonny veer, I'd be nice if this guy didn't sound subtly obnoxious in his posts. He doesn't make direct insulting comments, yet presumes that everyone on here is dumb. If you see the kind of remarks he makes in between his messages, you can sense that he considers Sikhs to be fools, for which I don't blame him. Several (not all) Paki Punjabis tend to believe that even though they themselves may not have finished high school (saying that based on experience). In the past whenever we've had Hindus/Muslims on here posting the same kind of stuff he has, we (including myself) have responded maturely with facts/statistics, our references have been researches and write ups by scholars and even Gurbani tuks. Even this time I haven't been the one to initiate any sort of harsh comments, it has been this dude's tone in his posts where he does his best in humiliating whoever he doesn't agree with.

There is a way to conduct a discussion/debate/conversation. There is a way to respectfully disagree. I have always followed it in the past but this one time I couldn't stop myself from letting loose whatever harshness you might have sensed in my replies to him. Not once have I said a word against Islam, or the Quran, or Hazrat Muhammad Sahib, and he has complimented that as well, which is appreciable. That is the sole reason you can still see him being able to post. If he can try hard to communicate his disagreement in a civilized manner and in a tone that is more of an educative/informative one rather than a degrading/humiliating one, I don't see any reason why anyone would go after him. No one on this forum is as stupid as he likes to think and big himself up. If he thinks he knows more than us, not a problem, feel free to share with us and we are glad to learn as long as you don't try to talk down the other person. But if the same is done in a way that sounds more like a mockery towards the person you're trying to teach, then thats not teaching, its pure insult. He has brought out the worst in me, all that you call harshness is NOT the real me, but just a response to a rude person who comes on a Sikh forum, looks down upon Sikhs as fools and claims his level of knowledge above that of others. If the same knowledge/information was passed onto us in a more "mature" manner, our response would be the same. We have had several other Muslims on here who did have disagreeing views. We exchanged our views, somethings they learnt, and we learnt somethings as well. None was so severely rude as this guy. It just goes to show that knowledge doesn't guarantee wisdom or maturity, it just adds to one's arrogance and vanity. I am the last person to be sensitive to the kind of language he uses, but if someone expects respect, one has to take the first step to give it. As they say in Punjabi, "ijjat karo, ijjar kraao". Besides, we don't need to beg for respect from such folks, but just wanted to get the point across that you can't come on a Sikh forum and indirectly imply that Sikhs are fools. As simple as that.

If going forward he is ready to post in a civilized manner without poking fun at those who "in his opinion" don't know as much as he does, I am ready to reciprocate the same. But if he continues to be rude and post in degrading language, then please forgive me veer, you won't see this guy on here for a very long time.

;) .

Well I read 4 articles from your resources ( 2 from Sikhsearch , 2 from whyIchosesikhi site ) ---ALL of them were lies , propaganda , and agenda pushing. Quoting Qur'an out of context...Quoting verses of battle with Quraish as if they were 'general' commands for Muslims (which they are not , if you read the context) ..and many more such things. One article was EXACT copy-paste of Christian missionary sites..I've already read these articles long time ago...and Muslim responses to these articles as well.... One of the rebuttal to one of Sikhsearch article "Contradicting Allah" is here

http://islamic-repli...ting_Allah.html

My request/suggestion from Sikhs would be to stay away from this dirty game. Let Christians and Muslims do this. Islam and Christianity are competiting with eachother for CENTURIES! All these so called 'hidden faults in Islam' you see were discussed by Christians in 10th century too!!! And Islamic scholars replied are also from this era. There are 100s of websites , youtube video content , forums etc doing this back-and-forth ping pong b/w Islam and Christianity! I don't know why Sikhs are indulging in it. Do you want Islamic Apologists to come after your faith too?

So quit this cut-paste , out of context , and maligning Islam game

And oh yeah...after these four articles...I stopped reading because who wants to read lies , myths , agenda-pushing , and Christian missionary rhetorics?

I am not complaining, because I have the option not to, and veer I am sure you know exactly what I mean :) . I am not warning anyone either because some people just can't change, lol. All I am doing is offering an opportunity to calm down the atmosphere on here. So the wise thing to do would be to make use of it while the offer is still open, and before its too late

Well how awesome of you! I reported some guys again and again and again and again and again and again...who were literally abusing Islam for no reason..yet you didn't put them into moderation...but just because my "tone" is not right...You have a problem with me? Guess what caused this tone to become hardened? MODS inaction against trollers! BAH.

And just my 'tone' became hard..if you were on my place...you would've broke your keyboard.

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We have not just moderated but infact banned individuals very recently after they were reported for posting anti-Islamic hate comments. It depends on which posts of which users you reported. If this is what caused your tone to get hardened, then I don't think that is a good enough reason. Anyways, we will keep a look out for those who insult any faith as it goes against the rules of this forum. But since the mods cannot read every post in every thread, a lot of the responsibility is on users to report what they deem as offensive. Reported posts are always looked into, it just depends what is the nature of the post and if it really required to be reported in the first place. Don't find an excuse to justify your rude messages.

And trust me, I wouldn't break my keyboard over an internet forum. I do have a life outside the Internet :) .

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By the way, what about the recording I posted? Here is a text as well...

One day Baba Ji was in deep meditation when Jesus Christ,

Mohammed Sahib and Bhrigu Rishi Ji together, appeared before him.

Their faces were radiant and had spiritually bright auras around their

heads. After blessing Baba Ji with this vision Hazrat Mohammed Sahib

Ji spoke, “You are blessed and truly fortunate to whom Guru Nanak

Dev Ji has shown the direct and easy method to attain enlightenment of

Almighty God especially in this age of kalyug. The followers of the

Great Guru Nanak Dev are not deriving the full benefit of his teachings.”

After this, Bhrigu Rishi Ji spoke, “In our times, we had to undergo

hard penance and rigorous spiritual austerities in order to achieve

enlightenment. The whole life of a man was spent in meditation and

making offerings to God and even then, union with God was hard to

achieve. The true nectar of naam which great Guru Nanak Dev Ji has

brought for his Sikhs is remarkable; even we could not obtain this boon

of naam. No doubt we amassed great spiritual and miraculous powers

through rigorous meditation and penance, including powers to curse or

bless anyone, but we were still deprived of the nectar of naam.”

Jesus Christ just said simply, “It is my inner desire that my followers

one day adopt the path shown by great Guru Nanak Dev Ji.” Saying

these words, all three prophets disappeared.

http://www.sikhvibes...-%20English.pdf

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Exactly. Sikh sites that Mehtab quoted are just spewing lies/fabrications ...and that too...by copy-pasting christian sites (don't even have own brain to criticize? lol) .. So whats the point , eh?

Would you care what some anti-Sikh propaganda site is lying about sikhi? No right? Same goes for Muslims...Nobody even gives a tiny sh!t about these laughable lies....

I have been reading some other posts of yours on differents topics and you need to realise that this site is about SIKHI. Any faith is welcome on here to research and ask questions BUT do not try to prove our way of living to be false (i.e. your post comments on another topic about how eating meat is supposed to be natural etc etc ). But yet again when someone questions islam ( which i am not saying is right) you through your toys out the pray...

When i ask questions to my muslim friends i am respectful to them as they are to me (not trying to prove each other to be wrong) You just concentrate on being the best Muslim you can be and leave Sikhi to us Sikhs. Please feel free to question and enquire about Sikhi but do not try to prove our way of living to be false !!!! Sri Guru Granth Shaib Ji is accomidating to ALL humans without any need to convert to Sikhi so Guru Shaib does not have any faults what so ever !!!!!!!!!!!

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE KHALSA BELONGS TO GOD AND VICTORY IS TO GOD !!!!!!!!!!!!

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Oh yeah..Iran , Turkey , Malaysia , Indonesia , Qatar etc are behind in women education while Indian Punjab is ahead? LMAO! Please , spare me this bullsh!t .... Iran alone beats WHOLE INDIA (not just Indian punjab) in women higher education enrollement (by percentage) .... I know you guys can just blabber but can never give any facts.....

So much so...that in come fields..Iran had to put 'ban' on further women enrollement...you know why? Because 70% of whole field were women! So Iran prefered guys and is trying to 'balance' ... and this is just one country...

And before making a fool outa yourself again...even Pakistan is ranked ahead of India in women-equality index!!!!!!!! LOL... now what?

This is where you go wrong once again as i never compared the two i said a lot of practising muslims arent highly educated, pakistan/bangladesh/afghanistan literacy rate all under 40% thats shockingly bad. I agree with you india is worse than pakistan in many aspects but sikhi teaches equality of women and in western countries sikh women are more succesful than pakistani women!

Would you say islamic countries are accomodating of other faiths? would you say that despite this lack of accomodation muslims in the west push for as much religious freedom without pushing for other faiths in there homeland?

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p.s the iranians are incredibly intelligent highest rate of literacy and graduate workforce in that part of the world, yet they continue the practice of bacha bazi and such?

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This is where you go wrong once again as i never compared the two i said a lot of practising muslims arent highly educated, pakistan/bangladesh/afghanistan literacy rate all under 40% thats shockingly bad. I agree with you india is worse than pakistan in many aspects but sikhi teaches equality of women and in western countries sikh women are more succesful than pakistani women!

Would you say islamic countries are accomodating of other faiths? would you say that despite this lack of accomodation muslims in the west push for as much religious freedom without pushing for other faiths in there homeland?

Again wrong. I know about a guy who is a professor at Yale University and he even has its own mosque (thats how practicing he is) ...He funds it etc...And there are TONS of such examples.... Turks are more practicing than even Iranian..and they are highly educated! Malaysians , Indonesians etc are the same.

Lack of education and poverty is the unfortunate fact of subcontinet...it doesn't have anything to do with religion.

Plus : In Islam , getting education on men and women is obligatory. So yeah , Islam also has equality that you talk about in Sikhi...

And it depends what Islamic country you talk about.... Turkey is secular and accomodate all faiths...Indonesia and Malaysia are Islamic states but yet deal with minorities pretty well... But if you compare with the West..yes , Muslim world has still a longgggg way to go in terms of pluralism..

p.s the iranians are incredibly intelligent highest rate of literacy and graduate workforce in that part of the world, yet they continue the practice of bacha bazi and such?

Evil practices are present in every society/culture. Secondly , you are mixing Afghanistan with Iran.

I have been reading some other posts of yours on differents topics and you need to realise that this site is about SIKHI. Any faith is welcome on here to research and ask questions BUT do not try to prove our way of living to be false (i.e. your post comments on another topic about how eating meat is supposed to be natural etc etc ).

I never tried to put Sikhi down...never. Also I didn't say that eating meat is natural...my question was something else..but anyways leave it.

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Sorry but i find your manner and tone of questions offensive. It's clear to see you are trying to justify why you shouldn't live a SIkhi life style !!

We have no issues with any questions you have but the tone and manner below is not the right way to go about it !!

Specifically your comments on the following topic :

http://www.sikhsangat.com/Index.php?/topic/68093-how-sikhs-explain-this/

YOUR POST : Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:02 AM: Same argument can be made "Well , God also gave us poop...should we not clean it ....should we keep it? Similarly , hairs can also be trimmed/cut ..." ...See your argument falls on its face.

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