Vedas and Gurbani. Whats the truth and what is not?

[SheikhFareed]

This is not a thread about Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji.

I have respect for them. But you cannot say his rehat was better than anyones. Sri Maan Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale had impeccable rehat, he was a full larrivarr paati with Shudd pronunciation of guroobani and did the utmost repsect for guroo shabad. It is unbelievable when i see this, moves me to tears when I hear their katha and sant Giani Kartar Singh Ji khalsa bhindranwales. dhan gursikhs like this i am the dust of their feet. if i could even be a little like them, my life would be worthwhile.

[Consciousness]

This is not a thread about Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji.

I have respect for them. But you cannot say his rehat was better than anyones. Sri Maan Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale had impeccable rehat, he was a full larrivarr paati with Shudd pronunciation of guroobani and did the utmost repsect for guroo shabad. It is unbelievable when i see this, moves me to tears when I hear their katha and sant Giani Kartar Singh Ji khalsa bhindranwales. dhan gursikhs like this i am the dust of their feet. if i could even be a little like them, my life would be worthwhile.

Thanks for this gurmukho. Just out of curiosity did giani gurbachan singh keep sarbloh bibek and did giani kartar singh keep sarbloh pehra?

[SheikhFareed]

Thanks for this gurmukho. Just out of curiosity did giani gurbachan singh keep sarbloh bibek and did giani kartar singh keep sarbloh pehra?

Yes 100% they did.The following I have read from elsewhere::::

Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee all their life kept a Strong Bibeki Pehra. Daas had the chance to Talk to a few of Sant Jee's students, one being Bhagat Jaswant Singh Jee . I asked them if Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee kept Sarbloh Bibek. What Bhagat Jee said was originally Sant Jee did keep Sarbloh Bibek and did so for a while. They only stopped when they got really old but still went all over India to do parchar. With an old body and the amount of travelling they did it became hard for them to keep Sarbloh Bibek, but nonetheless they still kept a strong Bibeki Pehra. They would only eat food made by Amrit Dhari Singhs that was made while they recited Bani. Bhagat Jee said the entire Jatha was bibeki and only ate from Amrit Dharis. Infact the Laangri Singhs and Degh Sevadaars were very strict Bibeki Singhs. When they were doing Seva they never spoke anything but recited Gurbani and did jaap of vaahigurooo vaahigurooo vaahigurooo.

Sant Gurbachan Singh in their writings and Katha make it clear how important Bibek is in Sikhi. Sant Kartar Singh writes about Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee's Bibeki Pehra:

ਜੇਕਰ ਮੋਨੇ ਜਾਂ ਸਿਗਰਟ ਪੀਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੇ ਹਥੋਂ ਲੰਗਰ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਮਠਿਆਈ ਆਦਿਕ ਬਣਦੀ ਤਾਂ ਨਾ ਆਪ ਛਕਦੇ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਹੀ ਜਥੇ ਨੂੰ ਛਕਣ ਦਿੰਦੇ। ਆਪ ਜੀ ਸੁਚਮ ਪਵਿੱਤਰਤਾ ਬਹੁਤ ਰਖਦੇ ਨਾ । ਕਦੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਦਾ ਜੂਠਾ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਹੀ ਖੁਵਾਉਂਦੇ। ਚਾਹ, ਅਫੀਮ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਸ਼ੀਲੀ ਚੀਜ਼ ਦੇ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਦੇ ਸਖਤ ਵਿਰੋਧੀ ਸਨ ।

If a Mona, or someone that smoked made any langar, sweets, etc. Sant Jee would not eat it or let any of the Jatha eat it. They kept a lot of cleanliness. They would never eat any Joot or let anyone else in the Jatha eat any Joot. Sant Jee were against the usage of Cha (Tea), Opium and other intoxicating drugs.

Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee keeping the importance of Sarbloh says that during an Amrit Sanchar all utensils used should be of Sarbloh. The Baltee, Garva, Bate, Karahee,Khanda, Kirpan etc. everything that is used to make Degh and Amrit should be of Sarbloh. Degh should always be made in Sarbloh, with a Sarbloh Karaahee, Sarbloh Karshee. When Bhog is done the Kirpaan should be of Sarbloh.

[N30S1NGH]

Here is my take on it below..take whatever you will..its more of general observation on how gurbani are being interpreted and their approach, which ultimately relates to this topic as well.

His interpretation is always based on one main principle: Gurbani is not contradictory. Hence, any interpretation that violates this principle is false.

This point is well understood that gurbani is never contradictory, but the limited approach or method of interpreting gurbani only by vikayaran to ensure - Gurbani is never contradictory. That method itself is highly questionable should be put under scrutiny, after all we are dealing with dhur ki bani - infinite nirgun gyan saroop not kavita of some poet or some tool to fight rss only or some soccer match where its all about scoring goals by hook or crook...!!

We start off by discussing the basic frame work of both thoughts (modern day thoughts and traditional thought) to ensure gurbani is not contradictory.

Modern day approach- interpret gurbani only by using grammar, some people with modern day approach pick up their favorite shabad and use guru sahib position held in that shabad of subject (be it on vedas or avtars) and make that position held in that shabad as "primary" and go to extreme lengths to apply that position held all across the board by making position held in various shabad align them with the first (their favorite shabad) without taking into context of various shabad of same subject.

Gurmat traditional approach: To ensure gurbani is not contradictory it lays out three main frame work in interpretating gurbani- a) uthanka-historical context of shabad- sankalap(thought) behind guru sahib reciting an respective shabad b) bhav arth- provided outer layer of shabad where some level of vikayaran is used c) antriv arth- inner layer of shabad which could be interpretating both from sargun and nirgun aspect of Vahiguroo. Hence you will find multiple meanings of same shabad. This is no way to be seen as contradictory quite the opposite rather because gurbani connects to our human consciousness which all have different perceptions and sitting on different stages.

Agami Gurbani speaks to every human consciousness/perception at different avastha and different perception. Think about it logically- you have glass (half empty and half full). I perceive the glass rightly so half full (because thats the only thing i see), my fellow human being perceives the glass rightly so half empty (because thats the only thing he sees). These are two different perception of same glass...how could one claim one's perception is wrong regarding the glass and other is right or vice versa. both perceptions are correct but whats important is to see full view of glass to understand the glass instead of seing only half full or half empty.!! Gurbani regarding vedas topic along with other important topics shows full glass in its totality (half full and half empty- ) to readers to draw an conscultion from it. Those who provides interpretation of important subjects such as -gurbani relationship with avtars, vedant/vedas etc must provide readers full glass view in its totality rather than providing half glass or half empty.

Agami Gurbani speaks to every human consciousness at different stage or avastha. Hence rightly so, no sampardaie teekakar claim that their arths of gurbani are sampooran(complete). Claiming to have full interpretation of agami gurbani is like individual claiming that they have found end of nirgun chaitan bhram Vahiguroo..!!..All though bhramgyani interpretation of gurbani is pretty much gives you tat gyan of gurbani but they themselves don't claim- this is it as their own consciousness is experiencing Agami Gurbani in its own unique and diverse way as there are many endless aspects (eg-sargun nirgun) of Vahiguroo.!!

It's usually bhramgyani over zealous chelas who misses the big picture or plot and confine themselves to their mahapursh or bhramgyani interpretation of gurbani which is also somewhat an road block in one's spiritual growth, the real message of bhramgyani to an student is to focus on message or work towards your own spirituality to actually experience gurbani yourself rather than typically imitating the teacher. No bhramgyani or sampardaaie teekakar will claim, follow my teeka. They have made attempts to present agami gurbani in most profound manner - even sant gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale did 35 kathas of sri guru granth sahib all slightly different from each other but at the end, all work- teeka, interpretation etc along with themselves looses themselves in Agami Gurbani..thats the beauty of agami gurbani..!!

There is nothing wrong with using teekas to help us understand gurbani but the real profound experience of gurbani comes from nirgun paratma via one own's spiritual growth in stages...defining agami gurbani exactly in its pure original total form is like defining Nirgun all prevading Vahiguroo which our own guru sahiban didn't put any defining limit or end to it !!..

At the end, one must come to terms and all bhramgyanis naturally have that its not about defining gurbani so much so in teeka or steek form but rather loosing your self in agami Gurbani and becoming part of ~~ IK ONGKAR ~~..!!!!!!!!!

[Consciousness]

Here is my take on it below..take whatever you will..its more of general observation on how gurbani are being interpreted and their approach, which ultimately relates to this topic as well.

This point is well understood that gurbani is never contradictory, but the limited approach or method of interpreting gurbani only by vikayaran to ensure - Gurbani is never contradictory. That method itself is highly questionable should be put under scrutiny, after all we are dealing with dhur ki bani - infinite nirgun gyan saroop not kavita of some poet or some tool to fight rss only or some soccer match where its all about scoring goals by hook or crook...!!

We start off by discussing the basic frame work of both thoughts (modern day thoughts and traditional thought) to ensure gurbani is not contradictory.

Modern day approach- interpret gurbani only by using grammar, some people with modern day approach pick up their favorite shabad and use guru sahib position held in that shabad of subject (be it on vedas or avtars) and make that position held in that shabad as "primary" and go to extreme lengths to apply that position held all across the board by making position held in various shabad align them with the first (their favorite shabad) without taking into context of various shabad of same subject.

Gurmat traditional approach: To ensure gurbani is not contradictory it lays out three main frame work in interpretating gurbani- a) uthanka-historical context of shabad- sankalap(thought) behind guru sahib reciting an respective shabad b) bhav arth- provided outer layer of shabad where some level of vikayaran is used c) antriv arth- inner layer of shabad which could be interpretating both from sargun and nirgun aspect of Vahiguroo. Hence you will find multiple meanings of same shabad. This is no way to be seen as contradictory quite the opposite rather because gurbani connects to our human consciousness which all have different perceptions and sitting on different stages.

Agami Gurbani speaks to every human consciousness/perception at different avastha and different perception. Think about it logically- you have glass (half empty and half full). I perceive the glass rightly so half full (because thats the only thing i see), my fellow human being perceives the glass rightly so half empty (because thats the only thing he sees). These are two different perception of same glass...how could one claim one's perception is wrong regarding the glass and other is right or vice versa. both perceptions are correct but whats important is to see full view of glass to understand the glass instead of seing only half full or half empty.!! Gurbani regarding vedas topic along with other important topics shows full glass in its totality (half full and half empty- ) to readers to draw an conscultion from it. Those who provides interpretation of important subjects such as -gurbani relationship with avtars, vedant/vedas etc must provide readers full glass view in its totality rather than providing half glass or half empty.

Agami Gurbani speaks to every human consciousness at different stage or avastha. Hence rightly so, no sampardaie teekakar claim that their arths of gurbani are sampooran(complete). Claiming to have full interpretation of agami gurbani is like individual claiming that they have found end of nirgun chaitan bhram Vahiguroo..!!..All though bhramgyani interpretation of gurbani is pretty much gives you tat gyan of gurbani but they themselves don't claim- this is it as their own consciousness is experiencing Agami Gurbani in its own unique and diverse way as there are many endless aspects (eg-sargun nirgun) of Vahiguroo.!!

It's usually bhramgyani over zealous chelas who misses the big picture or plot and confine themselves to their mahapursh or bhramgyani interpretation of gurbani which is also somewhat an road block in one's spiritual growth, the real message of bhramgyani to an student is to focus on message or work towards your own spirituality to actually experience gurbani yourself rather than typically imitating the teacher. No bhramgyani or sampardaaie teekakar will claim, follow my teeka. They have made attempts to present agami gurbani in most profound manner - even sant gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale did 35 kathas of sri guru granth sahib all slightly different from each other but at the end, all work- teeka, interpretation etc along with themselves looses themselves in Agami Gurbani..thats the beauty of agami gurbani..!!

There is nothing wrong with using teekas to help us understand gurbani but the real profound experience of gurbani comes from nirgun paratma via one own's spiritual growth in stages...defining agami gurbani exactly in its pure original total form is like defining Nirgun all prevading Vahiguroo which our own guru sahiban didn't put any defining limit or end to it !!..

At the end, one must come to terms and all bhramgyanis naturally have that its not about defining gurbani so much so in teeka or steek form but rather loosing your self in agami Gurbani and becoming part of ~~ IK ONGKAR ~~..!!!!!!!!!

You are right ji. We can't just confine gurbani only by grammar rules etc. How can we apply rules to something that is infinite and indescribable. All rules and interpretations fall short.

Yes 100% they did.The following I have read from elsewhere::::

Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee all their life kept a Strong Bibeki Pehra. Daas had the chance to Talk to a few of Sant Jee's students, one being Bhagat Jaswant Singh Jee . I asked them if Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee kept Sarbloh Bibek. What Bhagat Jee said was originally Sant Jee did keep Sarbloh Bibek and did so for a while. They only stopped when they got really old but still went all over India to do parchar. With an old body and the amount of travelling they did it became hard for them to keep Sarbloh Bibek, but nonetheless they still kept a strong Bibeki Pehra. They would only eat food made by Amrit Dhari Singhs that was made while they recited Bani. Bhagat Jee said the entire Jatha was bibeki and only ate from Amrit Dharis. Infact the Laangri Singhs and Degh Sevadaars were very strict Bibeki Singhs. When they were doing Seva they never spoke anything but recited Gurbani and did jaap of vaahigurooo vaahigurooo vaahigurooo.

Sant Gurbachan Singh in their writings and Katha make it clear how important Bibek is in Sikhi. Sant Kartar Singh writes about Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee's Bibeki Pehra:

ਜੇਕਰ ਮੋਨੇ ਜਾਂ ਸਿਗਰਟ ਪੀਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਦੇ ਹਥੋਂ ਲੰਗਰ ਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਮਠਿਆਈ ਆਦਿਕ ਬਣਦੀ ਤਾਂ ਨਾ ਆਪ ਛਕਦੇ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਹੀ ਜਥੇ ਨੂੰ ਛਕਣ ਦਿੰਦੇ। ਆਪ ਜੀ ਸੁਚਮ ਪਵਿੱਤਰਤਾ ਬਹੁਤ ਰਖਦੇ ਨਾ । ਕਦੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਦਾ ਜੂਠਾ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਤੇ ਨਾ ਹੀ ਖੁਵਾਉਂਦੇ। ਚਾਹ, ਅਫੀਮ ਆਦਿਕ ਨਸ਼ੀਲੀ ਚੀਜ਼ ਦੇ ਵਰਤੋਂ ਦੇ ਸਖਤ ਵਿਰੋਧੀ ਸਨ ।

If a Mona, or someone that smoked made any langar, sweets, etc. Sant Jee would not eat it or let any of the Jatha eat it. They kept a lot of cleanliness. They would never eat any Joot or let anyone else in the Jatha eat any Joot. Sant Jee were against the usage of Cha (Tea), Opium and other intoxicating drugs.

Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee keeping the importance of Sarbloh says that during an Amrit Sanchar all utensils used should be of Sarbloh. The Baltee, Garva, Bate, Karahee,Khanda, Kirpan etc. everything that is used to make Degh and Amrit should be of Sarbloh. Degh should always be made in Sarbloh, with a Sarbloh Karaahee, Sarbloh Karshee. When Bhog is done the Kirpaan should be of Sarbloh.

That may be a subjective truth. I have spoken to other gursikhs that have said they didn't always keep sarbloh bibek.

[SheikhFareed]

That may be a subjective truth. I have spoken to other gursikhs that have said they didn't always keep sarbloh bibek.

You are correct, it is subjective truth that Bhai randhir singh kept sarbloh. I have spoken to existing people who met bhai sahib and they have told me a number of sakhis on a number of times he didnt use an sarbloh panda. This is well known. You are just young and would not know of the depths of the old jatha.

[Consciousness]

You are correct, it is subjective truth that Bhai randhir singh kept sarbloh. I have spoken to existing people who met bhai sahib and they have told me a number of sakhis on a number of times he didnt use an sarbloh panda. This is well known. You are just young and would not know of the depths of the old jatha.

ਭੁਲਣ ਓੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਓਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ]

bhulan a(n)dhar sabh ko abhul guroo karathaar ||

Everyone makes mistakes; only the Guru the Creator are infallible.

[JasSinghKhalsa]

Please see the translation / meaning around minute 3:27, I never thought RigVeda mentioned racial discrimintation of Brahmins/Kshyatrias etc. I always thought it was Smritis/Manu-theory.

[sikhreality]

Giani Inderjit Singh Ji, student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, does a small 5min katha on this topic here. Be sure to listen, he quotes gurbani backing up his claims.

http://www.manglacharan.com/2011/05/vedas-and-gurbani-sakhi-guru-amar-daas.html

[13Mirch]

I cannot see the katha/ video can u tell me whats it called on youtube etc.?