Vedas and Gurbani. Whats the truth and what is not?

[Singh559]

Why should we ask such questions? I personally haven't even understood Guru Granth Sahib Ji or even close to it, so why do we need to read vedas when Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Sampooran and everything a Sikh needs?

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Maaroo on Pannaa 1077

mwrU mhlw 5 ]

sUriq dyiK n BUlu gvwrw ]

imQn mohwrw JUTu pswrw ]

jg mih koeI rhxu n pwey inhclu eyku nwrwiexw ]1]

gur pUry kI pau srxweI ]

mohu sogu sBu Brmu imtweI ]

eyko mMqRü idRVwey AauKDu scu nwmu ird gwiexw ]2]

ijsu nwmY kau qrsih bhu dyvw ]

sgl Bgq jw kI krdy syvw ]

AnwQw nwQu dIn duK BMjnu so gur pUry qy pwiexw ]3]

horu duAwrw koie n sUJY ]

iqRBvx DwvY qw ikCU n bUJY ]

siqguru swhu BMfwru nwmu ijsu iehu rqnu iqsY qy pwiexw ]4]

jw kI DUir kry punIqw ]

suir nr dyv n pwvih mIqw ]

siq purKu siqguru prmysru ijsu Bytq pwir prwiexw ]5]

pwrjwqu loVih mn ipAwry ]

kwmDynu sohI drbwry ]

iqRpiq sMqoKu syvw gur pUry nwmu kmwie rswiexw ]6]

gur kY sbid mrih pMc DwqU ]

BY pwrbRhm hovih inrmlw qU ]

pwrsu jb BytY guru pUrw qw pwrsu pris idKwiexw ]7]

keI bYkuMT nwhI lvY lwgy ]

mukiq bpuVI BI igAwnI iqAwgy ]

eykMkwru siqgur qy pweIAY hau bil bil gur drswiexw ]8]

gur kI syv n jwxY koeI ]

guru pwrbRhmu Agocru soeI ]

ijs no lwie ley so syvku ijsu vfBwg mQwiexw ]9]

gur kI mihmw byd n jwxih ]

quC mwq suix suix vKwxih ]

pwrbRhm AprMpr siqgur ijsu ismrq mnu sIqlwiexw ]10]

jw kI soie suxI mnu jIvY ]

irdY vsY qw TMFw QIvY ]

guru muKhu Alwey qw soBw pwey iqsu jm kY pMiQ n pwiexw ]11]

sMqn kI srxweI piVAw ]

jIau pRwx Dnu AwgY DirAw ]

syvw suriq n jwxw kweI qum krhu dieAw ikrmwiexw ]12]

inrgux kau sMig lyhu rlwey ]

kir ikrpw moih thlY lwey ]

pKw Pyrau pIsau sMq AwgY crx Doie suKu pwiexw ]13]

bhuqu duAwry BRim BRim AwieAw ]

qumrI ik®pw qy qum srxwieAw ]

sdw sdw sMqh sMig rwKhu eyhu nwm dwnu dyvwiexw ]14]

Bey ik®pwl gusweI myry ]

drsnu pwieAw siqgur pUry ]

sUK shj sdw Awnµdw nwnk dws dswiexw ]15]2]7] Maaroo, Fifth Mehla:

Do not be fooled by appearances, you fool.

This is a false attachment to the expanse of an illusion.

No one can remain in this world; only the One Lord is permanent and unchanging. ||1||

Seek the Sanctuary of the Perfect Guru.

He shall eradicate all emotional attachment, sorrow and doubt.

He shall administer the medicine, the Mantra of the One Name. Sing the True Name within your heart. ||2||

So many gods yearn for the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

All the devotees serve Him.

He is the Master of the masterless, the Destroyer of the pains of the poor. His Name is obtained from the Perfect Guru. ||3||

I cannot conceive of any other door.

One who wanders through the three worlds, understands nothing.

The True Guru is the banker, with the treasure of the Naam. This jewel is obtained from Him. ||4||

The dust of His feet purifies.

Even the angelic beings and gods cannot obtain it, O friend.

The True Guru is the True Primal Being, the Transcendent Lord God; meeting with Him, one is carried across to the other side. ||5||

O my beloved mind, if you wish for the 'tree of life';

if you wish for Kaamadhayna, the wish-fulfilling cow to adorn your court;

if you wish to be satisfied and contented, then serve the Perfect Guru, and practice the Naam, the source of nectar. ||6||

Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the five thieves of desire are conquered.

In the Fear of the Supreme Lord God, you shall become immaculate and pure.

When one meets the Perfect Guru, the Philosopher's Stone, His touch reveals the Lord, the Philosopher's Stone. ||7||

Myriads of heavens do not equal the Lord's Name.

The spiritually wise forsake mere liberation.

The One Universal Creator Lord is found through the True Guru. I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan. ||8||

No one knows how to serve the Guru.

The Guru is the unfathomable, Supreme Lord God.

He alone is the Guru's servant, whom the Guru Himself links to His service, and upon whose forehead such blessed destiny is inscribed. ||9||

Even the Vedas do not know the Guru's Glory.

They narrate only a tiny bit of what is heard.

The True Guru is the Supreme Lord God, the Incomparable One; meditating in remembrance on Him, the mind is cooled and soothed. ||10||

Hearing of Him, the mind comes to life.

When He dwells within the heart, one becomes peaceful and cool.

Chanting the Guru's Name with the mouth, one obtains glory, and does not have to walk on the Path of Death. ||11||

I have entered the Sanctuary of the Saints,

and placed before them my soul, my breath of life and wealth.

I know nothing about service and awareness; please take pity upon this worm. ||12||

I am unworthy; please merge me into Yourself.

Please bless me with Your Grace, and link me to Your service.

I wave the fan, and grind the corn for the Saints; washing their feet, I find peace. ||13||

After wandering around at so many doors, I have come to Yours, O Lord.

By Your Grace, I have entered Your Sanctuary.

Forever and ever, keep me in the Company of the Saints; please bless me with this Gift of Your Name. ||14||

My World-Lord has become merciful,

and I have obtained the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of the Perfect True Guru.

I have found eternal peace, poise and bliss; Nanak is the slave of Your slaves. ||15||2||7||

[13Mirch]

Why should we ask such questions? I personally haven't even understood Guru Granth Sahib Ji or even close to it, so why do we need to read vedas when Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Sampooran and everything a Sikh needs?

This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Maaroo on Pannaa 1077

mwrU mhlw 5 ]

sUriq dyiK n BUlu gvwrw ]

imQn mohwrw JUTu pswrw ]

jg mih koeI rhxu n pwey inhclu eyku nwrwiexw ]1]

gur pUry kI pau srxweI ]

mohu sogu sBu Brmu imtweI ]

eyko mMqRü idRVwey AauKDu scu nwmu ird gwiexw ]2]

ijsu nwmY kau qrsih bhu dyvw ]

sgl Bgq jw kI krdy syvw ]

AnwQw nwQu dIn duK BMjnu so gur pUry qy pwiexw ]3]

horu duAwrw koie n sUJY ]

iqRBvx DwvY qw ikCU n bUJY ]

siqguru swhu BMfwru nwmu ijsu iehu rqnu iqsY qy pwiexw ]4]

jw kI DUir kry punIqw ]

suir nr dyv n pwvih mIqw ]

siq purKu siqguru prmysru ijsu Bytq pwir prwiexw ]5]

pwrjwqu loVih mn ipAwry ]

kwmDynu sohI drbwry ]

iqRpiq sMqoKu syvw gur pUry nwmu kmwie rswiexw ]6]

gur kY sbid mrih pMc DwqU ]

BY pwrbRhm hovih inrmlw qU ]

pwrsu jb BytY guru pUrw qw pwrsu pris idKwiexw ]7]

keI bYkuMT nwhI lvY lwgy ]

mukiq bpuVI BI igAwnI iqAwgy ]

eykMkwru siqgur qy pweIAY hau bil bil gur drswiexw ]8]

gur kI syv n jwxY koeI ]

guru pwrbRhmu Agocru soeI ]

ijs no lwie ley so syvku ijsu vfBwg mQwiexw ]9]

gur kI mihmw byd n jwxih ]

quC mwq suix suix vKwxih ]

pwrbRhm AprMpr siqgur ijsu ismrq mnu sIqlwiexw ]10]

jw kI soie suxI mnu jIvY ]

irdY vsY qw TMFw QIvY ]

guru muKhu Alwey qw soBw pwey iqsu jm kY pMiQ n pwiexw ]11]

sMqn kI srxweI piVAw ]

jIau pRwx Dnu AwgY DirAw ]

syvw suriq n jwxw kweI qum krhu dieAw ikrmwiexw ]12]

inrgux kau sMig lyhu rlwey ]

kir ikrpw moih thlY lwey ]

pKw Pyrau pIsau sMq AwgY crx Doie suKu pwiexw ]13]

bhuqu duAwry BRim BRim AwieAw ]

qumrI ik®pw qy qum srxwieAw ]

sdw sdw sMqh sMig rwKhu eyhu nwm dwnu dyvwiexw ]14]

Bey ik®pwl gusweI myry ]

drsnu pwieAw siqgur pUry ]

sUK shj sdw Awnµdw nwnk dws dswiexw ]15]2]7] Maaroo, Fifth Mehla:

Do not be fooled by appearances, you fool.

This is a false attachment to the expanse of an illusion.

No one can remain in this world; only the One Lord is permanent and unchanging. ||1||

Seek the Sanctuary of the Perfect Guru.

He shall eradicate all emotional attachment, sorrow and doubt.

He shall administer the medicine, the Mantra of the One Name. Sing the True Name within your heart. ||2||

So many gods yearn for the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

All the devotees serve Him.

He is the Master of the masterless, the Destroyer of the pains of the poor. His Name is obtained from the Perfect Guru. ||3||

I cannot conceive of any other door.

One who wanders through the three worlds, understands nothing.

The True Guru is the banker, with the treasure of the Naam. This jewel is obtained from Him. ||4||

The dust of His feet purifies.

Even the angelic beings and gods cannot obtain it, O friend.

The True Guru is the True Primal Being, the Transcendent Lord God; meeting with Him, one is carried across to the other side. ||5||

O my beloved mind, if you wish for the 'tree of life';

if you wish for Kaamadhayna, the wish-fulfilling cow to adorn your court;

if you wish to be satisfied and contented, then serve the Perfect Guru, and practice the Naam, the source of nectar. ||6||

Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the five thieves of desire are conquered.

In the Fear of the Supreme Lord God, you shall become immaculate and pure.

When one meets the Perfect Guru, the Philosopher's Stone, His touch reveals the Lord, the Philosopher's Stone. ||7||

Myriads of heavens do not equal the Lord's Name.

The spiritually wise forsake mere liberation.

The One Universal Creator Lord is found through the True Guru. I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan. ||8||

No one knows how to serve the Guru.

The Guru is the unfathomable, Supreme Lord God.

He alone is the Guru's servant, whom the Guru Himself links to His service, and upon whose forehead such blessed destiny is inscribed. ||9||

Even the Vedas do not know the Guru's Glory.

They narrate only a tiny bit of what is heard.

The True Guru is the Supreme Lord God, the Incomparable One; meditating in remembrance on Him, the mind is cooled and soothed. ||10||

Hearing of Him, the mind comes to life.

When He dwells within the heart, one becomes peaceful and cool.

Chanting the Guru's Name with the mouth, one obtains glory, and does not have to walk on the Path of Death. ||11||

I have entered the Sanctuary of the Saints,

and placed before them my soul, my breath of life and wealth.

I know nothing about service and awareness; please take pity upon this worm. ||12||

I am unworthy; please merge me into Yourself.

Please bless me with Your Grace, and link me to Your service.

I wave the fan, and grind the corn for the Saints; washing their feet, I find peace. ||13||

After wandering around at so many doors, I have come to Yours, O Lord.

By Your Grace, I have entered Your Sanctuary.

Forever and ever, keep me in the Company of the Saints; please bless me with this Gift of Your Name. ||14||

My World-Lord has become merciful,

and I have obtained the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of the Perfect True Guru.

I have found eternal peace, poise and bliss; Nanak is the slave of Your slaves. ||15||2||7||

I agree but (I know this sounds anti-Sikhi and stupid) I get wound up when people go around saying Guru Granth Sahib is a copy of Vedas or offshoot I just want to establish the differences. Thats what I see as seva. I have no knowledge of such stuff and this is a good learning experience for me.

[Balbir Singh]

Some search God in scriptures. Some search difference in scriptures.

The search is going on and on . . .

[taran0]

Jin Ki Liv har charnee laagee, teh bedan teh pey tyagee

those who were devoted to the feet of the lord, they abandoned the vedas

jin mat bed kateban tyagi, parbrahm keh pey anuragi

those who abandoned the path of the vedas and katebs, they became the devotees of the lord.

Guru Gobind Singh ji(Bachittar Natak)

[13Mirch]

Jin Ki Liv har charnee laagee, teh bedan teh pey tyagee

those who were devoted to the feet of the lord, they abandoned the vedas

jin mat bed kateban tyagi, parbrahm keh pey anuragi

those who abandoned the path of the vedas and katebs, they became the devotees of the lord.

Guru Gobind Singh ji(Bachittar Natak)

Thanks for this. But I am going to take a heads up from here and start my own research. After all our veechars all differ. And so do our ultimate goals regarding this topic.

[Singh559]

Thanks for this. But I am going to take a heads up from here and start my own research. After all our veechars all differ. And so do our ultimate goals regarding this topic.

Sorry to disappoint, but Guru Sahib is very clear. Veechars can differ, but not in the way you're trying to insinuate.

[13Mirch]

Sorry to disappoint, but Guru Sahib is very clear. Veechars can differ, but not in the way you're trying to insinuate.

All I am trying to find is the final saying on the matter. And what do you mean the way I am trying to insinuate?

[Guest dasguruka]

I came across this website which states that Sikh Gurus believe in Vedas. I cannot find the interpretations of the shabads in relation to it's comments.

http://agniveer.com/sikh-gurus-and-vedas/

On the other hand I came across this booklet which says Sikh Gurus did not believe in Vedas.

http://agniveer.com/sikh-gurus-and-vedas/

Can anyone explain what Guru Sahibaans take on Vedas was and why there are pro-Veda shabds and anti-Veda shabds in Gurbani? And how would you refute someone saying Sikh is a branch of Vedic dharam?

As far as I can recall from the collection of Kathas that I have heard Vedas have 80,000 saloks that only pertain to karam kaand. Such as rituals, ceremonies, or the one that is really common that happens in every household ...pausing for a while before going out if someone sneezes. Only 16,000 saloks refer to the soul/atma adhyatmik jeevan. Sant Hari Singh Ji said that's where the taksali vidya begins where the Vedas end and thats why its called Vedanta where Vedas are ended.

Hindus refer to Vedas as Gods, however, according to Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj we NEED a Guru that can lead us to God.

[MokhamSingh]

I found two digitised books on the net which answer this question. One book is by Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha 'Hum Hindhu nahin'. The other book is by Gurbax Singh Sidhu M.A. London. It can be read/ downloaded from:

http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smspublications/SikhReligionAndHinduism.pdf

Waheguru.....

[N30S1NGH]

source: japji sahib teeka by sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale likhak sant kartar singh bhindranwale

Found very interesting commentary on gurbani/gurmat position on vedas by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale as mentioned in japji sahib teeka pdf page- 72 below and also post by tsingh on sikhawareness.com ( http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/10748-a-requested-clarification-about-gurmat/ ) . Please see-attached photos from the japji sahib teeka which can be downloaded from link http://gurmatveechar.com/books/Steeks_and_Teekas/Sant_Kartar_Singh_(Bhindrawale)/