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13Mirch

Vedas and Gurbani. Whats the truth and what is not?

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Thanks for this. But I am going to take a heads up from here and start my own research. After all our veechars all differ. And so do our ultimate goals regarding this topic.

Sorry to disappoint, but Guru Sahib is very clear. Veechars can differ, but not in the way you're trying to insinuate.

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Sorry to disappoint, but Guru Sahib is very clear. Veechars can differ, but not in the way you're trying to insinuate.

All I am trying to find is the final saying on the matter. And what do you mean the way I am trying to insinuate?

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Guest dasguruka

I came across this website which states that Sikh Gurus believe in Vedas. I cannot find the interpretations of the shabads in relation to it's comments.

http://agniveer.com/sikh-gurus-and-vedas/

On the other hand I came across this booklet which says Sikh Gurus did not believe in Vedas.

http://agniveer.com/sikh-gurus-and-vedas/

Can anyone explain what Guru Sahibaans take on Vedas was and why there are pro-Veda shabds and anti-Veda shabds in Gurbani? And how would you refute someone saying Sikh is a branch of Vedic dharam?

As far as I can recall from the collection of Kathas that I have heard Vedas have 80,000 saloks that only pertain to karam kaand. Such as rituals, ceremonies, or the one that is really common that happens in every household ...pausing for a while before going out if someone sneezes. Only 16,000 saloks refer to the soul/atma adhyatmik jeevan. Sant Hari Singh Ji said that's where the taksali vidya begins where the Vedas end and thats why its called Vedanta where Vedas are ended.

Hindus refer to Vedas as Gods, however, according to Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj we NEED a Guru that can lead us to God.

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I found two digitised books on the net which answer this question. One book is by Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha 'Hum Hindhu nahin'. The other book is by Gurbax Singh Sidhu M.A. London. It can be read/ downloaded from:

http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smspublications/SikhReligionAndHinduism.pdf

Waheguru.....

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source: japji sahib teeka by sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale likhak sant kartar singh bhindranwale

Found very interesting commentary on gurbani/gurmat position on vedas by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale as mentioned in japji sahib teeka pdf page- 72 below and also post by tsingh on sikhawareness.com ( http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/10748-a-requested-clarification-about-gurmat/ ) . Please see-attached photos from the japji sahib teeka which can be downloaded from link http://gurmatveechar.com/books/Steeks_and_Teekas/Sant_Kartar_Singh_(Bhindrawale)/

post-24251-0-97845100-1406728644_thumb.j

post-24251-0-93830600-1406728652_thumb.j

post-24251-0-98427700-1406728662_thumb.j

post-24251-0-81580800-1406728669_thumb.j

post-24251-0-74252400-1406728676_thumb.j

Edited by N30S1NGH
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Here is more commentary on compatible mahavaks(pointing towards absolute reality/truth) in both vedas (4 out of 16000 indirect/4000 shaloks/surti in vedas) and gurbani pdf page- 510

post-24251-0-55572000-1406730932_thumb.j

More info on definition of mahavaks and commentary on them:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/74815-deep-gnosis-behind-mahavak-in-gurbani/

Edited by N30S1NGH
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good find N30..




the above attached file is from Guru Granth Sahib history pothi from gursevak.com



in this pothi (point 92) from page 239-to mid 242 has the ved and gurbani position..
Edited by curious_man

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All I am trying to find is the final saying on the matter. And what do you mean the way I am trying to insinuate?

Isn't Guru ji's Bachan enough for you?

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good find N30..
the above attached file is from Guru Granth Sahib history pothi from gursevak.com
in this pothi (point 92) from page 239-to mid 242 has the ved and gurbani position..

Here are the pages from pothi above

post-24251-0-13359100-1406736918_thumb.j

post-24251-0-03225600-1406736927_thumb.j

post-24251-0-20301900-1406736934_thumb.j

post-24251-0-25888100-1406736944_thumb.j

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Guest dasguruka

I remember hearing that Vedas began as only 4 saloks given to Brahma and later on holy men added on and on over generations. Vedas are definitely not Gurbani. Over 80,000 saloks of Vedas are related to karam kaand.

Vedanta, however, touches the concepts that Gurbani explains in great detail. We still cannot put them in the same league.

But in today's generation I see that my Sikh brothers get really offended when Vedanta is mentioned. That's a bit too extreme in my opinion. A lot of great kathavachaks sometimes reference Vedas and Vedanta and what ive seen is that that particular kathavachak is seen differently. It shouldn't be that way. Guru Sahib personally sent Singhs to Kanshi so they could learn and later on preach it to Sikh Sangat. I had this Sant come to our place once and he had Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 4 Vedas, Geeta all memorised and it didn't seem that he had any friction with Gurus beloved Singhs.

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According to my research, end portion of vedas text is known as vedant(knowledge of vedant later taken out as seperate text just like upanishads, asthavakara gita etc), has 4000 direct /16000 indirect spiritual gnosis knowledge of absolute reality- paratma which has unity framework of jiv atma and paratma ..it talks, point, advises to connect one towards absolute reality/truth-parbhram. Hence, why sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale points out in his japji sahib teeka (screenshot attached in previous page) where vedas talks about gyan-bhramgyan unity framework of jiv atma and paratma, its indeed is compatible with Gurmat positon, where it talks about karam kaands its not compatible.. Gurmat rejects them. Hence, vedas knowledge cannot be completed rejected but only portion of karam kaands. Those who totally reject it totally including end portion of vedas or even vedanta are doing so in totally ignorance, knee je rk reaction, hindu parnioa/phobia they never read it or researched the deep spiritual gnosis, purposely ignore in insecurity.

Mind you, most western, other non duality school of thoughts propagated by western spiritual teachers, zen buddhism, mahakaya buddhism etc also shares same spiritual gnosis with vedas ( base framework gyan of atma-paratma/end of vedas- vedanta), western non hindu teachers- echkart tolle,adyashanti, robert adams many others have no problem giving references from vedas/upanishads/non duality teachers propents of vedant. One does not become hindu by giving few references of non duality or absolute reality from vedas/vedant which is framework shared amongst eastern dharma.

Sri guru gobind singh ji had compatible text of upanishads(portion of vedas)/gita translated in 52 court of kavi-

For example-

https://www.facebook.com/CourtJewelsOfGuruGobindSingh?ref=br_tf

The Mundakya Upanishad is one of the most fascinating upanishads ever written. It deals with the four states of being and was translated in Anandpur in 1689 under the patronage of Guru Gobind SIngh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandukya_Upanishad

Regarding vedas/vedant written by someone else- please read this uthanka of kirtan sohila:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/74757-conversation-between-satguru-nanak-dev-ji-and-spiritual-seeker-in-kirtan-sohila/

Edited by N30S1NGH

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I have not read or even seen the Vedas, and I am at no level to fully comprehend agaadh bodh Gurbani. So I cannot really compare. But I think the problem arises when we use terms like "compatible", "sharing" etc. anything that tries to put forth an impression that Gurbani and the Vedas propagate the same message. This is not really in accordance with what Bhai Gurdas ji said, "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya". I've come across many Hindus and even some shameless Sikhs who go to the extent of even saying that the Guru Sahibaan did not start anything new, and they say it solely based on their own created myth that the message in Gurbani was already contained in Vedas and Upanishads.

Again, when we say that certain portions of the Vedas are "similar" to Gurbani, and others, i.e. karam kaand sections are not, we give these guys another chance to claim (which they already do) that the Gurus "picked and chose" pre-existing gyaan to start Sikhi. Muslims then find things from the Quran and claim those to be similar to certain Shabads in Gurbani, and this is when we find the distorted notion that Sikhi is a mix of Hindu and Islamic philosophies.

I guess other brothers/sisters on here have read the Vedas? I am interested to know if there is anything in them that resounds the message of the following Shabad:

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥

This human body has been given to you.

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥

This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥

Nothing else will work.

ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥

Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. ||1||

Edited by Mehtab Singh

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Spiritual gnosis which talks about aspects of vahiguroo of all major faiths(christianity-gnostic-talks about soul/supreme soul knowledge, tenth door, islam-sufism-zikr - seven layers of truth-buddhism-mahayana/tibetan zen buddhism, hinduism-vedas-advaita vedanta, qualified advaita) are pointing towards same reality towards vahiguroo, such pure gnosis are there in other faiths scriptures but its heavily clouded/hidden by dogma, modified, other sects, internal bickering.. sikhi is supreme because absolute reality its not clouded its evident right way in gurbani mool mantra, its start from Ikongkar no question on duality, enshrined in mool mantar and besides talks about all aspects of vahiguroo evidently right away not just one or few whereas others one has to spend 20-30 years of researching then eventually get to final message-absolute truth if lucky.

One can still easily hold Sikhi supreme while accepting elements or aspects of truth/vahiguroo, eventual absolute truth in other faiths instead of new disturbing trend of totally rejecting other faiths or spiritual school of thoughts and undermining other faiths (which make us no different or unique than others) ,holding bias against other faiths, totally undermining other spiritual traditions without any deep research on it rather just by quoting outer layers.

I wrote this not long ago, hopefully this helps not tended to start a debate just sharing my research"

Gurbani essence is pure pristine absolute truth which connects to all aspects of divine all included in non dual Ik0ngkar- One absolute Truth/reality as creator is fully engaged in creation. Gurbani intertwines absolute reality/truth aspects of nirgun and sargun in Ikongkar and offers full awakening of absolute reality of all aspects.
Whilst other spiritual gnosises eventually points towards absolute truth as well. However, most often they point towards fragmented aspects of absolute truth may potentially cause dualism in seeker head, its not whole and direct like Gurbani
Also most often we also see other traditions is obscured by many outside rituals which does not resonate or help one's inner expereince. Gurmat outright condemns those rituals which ultimately does not resonate or help in one's help inner experience or one spiritual development process which in return causes spiritual hindrances as one can gets easily caught up.
Edited by N30S1NGH

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The Vedas are written in very archaic ancient Sanskrit. Owing to this, the Vedas are open to differing interpretations. On the one hand, many 'Hindu' scholars lay claim that the scriptures are 'holy' and the basis of all gyan and all 'Dharma'. On the other hand, there are scholars who claim that there is nothing 'holy' about the Vedas, and as such show the scriptures as obscene literature.

Gurbachan Singh Sidhu M.A.(London) claims that the Vedas contain instructions towards women fornicating with a horse, women were hired and sold as prostitutes, married women were offered to the 'gods' to indulge in fornication, became pregnant and then returned to their husbands. According to Gurbachan Singh, incest, rape, and debauchery was accepted as the norm. He goes on to say that many of the worshipped folk married their mother or sister.

Despite the above, Gurbachan Singh states that the greatest contribution of the Vedas is the 'vedant' aspect, i.e the metaphysics. One of the other Vedas also makes a huge contribution towards sangeet/ music.

Even the western scholars concede that the Vedas depict an account of ancient life, but there isn't any teaching of morality or socialism. The vedas are responsible for creating social divisions such as 'untouchable' and 'unseeable'. The vast majority of the hymns are geared towards animal sacrifices.

The Vedas or the subsequent ancient scriptures cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be compared to SGGS. Just because SGGS talks about Atma, the after life, and worship does not mean that the scriptures are one of the same.

When we read the history of India, that that defines the Vedic period, we see: deceit, sexual misconduct, seduction, anger, and immorality being performed by those who were worshipped as 'gods'.

Some people claim the Vedas to be the root of the Hindu faith. The most striking fact is that none of the ancient scriptures use the word 'Hindu'. The old Persian dictionary defines the word 'Hindu' in their own language, but the definition has nothing to do with Dharam or the Vedas.

SGGS uses the word 'Hindu' to differentiate the Vedic followers from the other faiths.

Considering Guru Nanak's definition of God, the highest standards of morality, and equality, then we have to accept that SGGS is the only faith that preaches 'Dharam'....

Waheguru....

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Another note, reason words like "compatible", "sharing" is used its quite simple. Sikhi is absolute truth if other spiritual school of thoughts are pointing towards that absolute truth, share same absolute truth, then its compatible we are not against their gyan spiritual gnosis spiritually speaking* We are and should be happy for them as thats one of our uniqueness of sikhi compare to other faiths which considers their own faiths are sole custodians of truth very black and white approach.

*

ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮ ਮਹਿ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟ ਧਰਮੁ ॥

Of all religions, the best religion
ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕਰਮੁ ॥
is to chant the NAAM and maintain pure conduct.
Edited by N30S1NGH

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