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I did this write up of sorts on why Ram Chandar, is not the Guru Sahibaan's Ram:


Over time Right-Wing Hindu politicians have come up with the argument that the name of Ram is mentioned more than any other name in Gurbani. No other Sikh source supports this 'hyped-up' claim, nor have these right-wing extremists provided any proof except books published by them or the teachings of self-styled theologians.

This has obviously lead to a heated debate as to who Ram is according to Gurbani. Guru Sahiban have u

sed the name of Ram in Gurbani to mean Waheguru. Out of the many shabads which prove this claim we chose the following from Gurbani, to prove our point:

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥

Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.

Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥

So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190||

Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥

Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek.

Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥

Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||

One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

Bhagat Kabir here has made a distinction for himself as to who the real Ram is. One Ram, the son of Dasrath and incarnation of Vishnu is contained only within himself. The other Ram, Bhagat Kabir's Ram is all pervading and everywhere. He is the one who Guru Sahiban termed as Akal Purakh, Waheguru Hari etc.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji states:

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਰਵਾਲ ॥

ਕੇਤੀਆ ਕੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥

"The Formless alone, Nanak, is without fear, many are Ramas as the dust of His Feet, many Krishnas. Many are their stories and many are the Vedas."

(SGGS - Ang 464).

There are many Ramas who are the dust of his feet. The 'his' in this question again is Akal Purakh.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is often stated as having worshipped Ram, due to him writing Ram Avtar. It is stated that Guru Sahib deviated from the path of the following Gurus by writing Ram avtar but lets see what the Guru has to say about Ram, in Ram avtar:

"Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else.

I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran.

The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them.

O God, the Sword-bearer (of justice)! With Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command.


I have shunned every door and have entered Your door

Please hold my arm and keep my honour, Gobind is ever Your slave." (Raam Avtar, Guru Gobind Singh).

Ram Chander was born of a woman. His mother's name was Kaushalya. Puranic sources relate that Dasrath, Ram's father, had no son but three wives. He performed a yajna to have his wife beget sons. Kaushalya gave birth to Ram. Ram cannot be God if we look at Gurmat because he was born of a woman:

ਸੋ ਮੁਖੁ ਜਲਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਹਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜੋਨੀ ॥੩॥

ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੧॥

"Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3|| He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere. ||4||1||"

(SGGS - Ang 1136).

Many other aspects of Ram are rejected outright by Gurbani. Ram is often accepted as being an incarnation of Vishnu. The seventh to be exact. Gurbani says:

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥

"O Formless Lord God, You are eternally intact; no one can say how You came into being. You created countless Brahmas and Vishnus; their minds were intoxicated with emotional attachment."

(Ang 1403).

Countless Vishnus who themselves are attached to creation but not the creator. Whats the point of worshipping one when there are countless more?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji clearly states:

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥

ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

“I do not seek blessings or hail Ganesh before I start any task. (In old times, often Ganesh would be hailed before starting any task). Nor do I worship Krishan or Vishnu etc. I have heard of them but I do not recognise any of them. I am engrossed in the loving devotion of my Lord (Waheguru) alone.”

(DG – P. 733, Krishan Avtar.

How could the Gurus have worshipped Rama when they did not believe in his source Vishnu? Our Gurus were the one and same jot from beginning till end they would not have contradicted their actions in the predecessor's form. How hard is all this for Hindus to understand? They can understand flying apes, ten-headed demi-gods but not a soul being the same yet with different bodies.

A Sikh is required by the Guru to place his faith only in the Guru:

:ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ॥

Saṯgur merā saḏā saḏā nā āvai na jā▫e.

My True Guru, forever and ever, does not come and go.

ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧੩॥

Oh abẖināsī purakẖ hai sabẖ mėh rahi▫ā samā▫e. ||13||

He is the Imperishable Creator Lord; He is permeating and pervading among all. ||13||

What else does Gurbani say about the devte?

A:ਰਾਮੁ ਗਇਓ ਰਾਵਨੁ ਗਇਓ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਵਾਰੁ ॥

रामु गइओ रावनु गइओ जा कउ बहु परवारु ॥

Rām ga▫i▫o rāvan ga▫i▫o jā ka▫o baho parvār.

Raam Chand passed away, as did Raawan, even though he had lots of relatives.


ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬਿਸਨ ਸਚੀਪਿਤ ਅੰਤ ਫਸੇ ਜਮ ਫਾਸਿ ਪਰੈਂਗੇ ॥

ब्रहम महेसर बिसन सचीपित अंत फसे जम फासि परैंगे ॥

Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu and Consort of Sachi (Indra) would ultimately fall in the noose of death.(Sri Dasam Granth Sahib)

Even Ram Chand passed away, yet God never takes birth nor dies according to Gurmat; so Ram cannot be God.

ਏਕ ਸਿਵ ਭਏ ਏਕ ਗਏ ਏਕ ਫੇਰ ਭਏ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਕੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਭੀ ਅਨੇਕ ਹੈਂ ॥

Ek Siv Bhae Ek Gae Ek Pher Bhae, Raamchanndra Krishan Ke Avtaar Bhee Anek Hain||

एक सिव भए एक गए एक फेर भए रामचंद्र क्रिसन के अवतार भी अनेक हैं ॥

There was one Shiva, who passed away and another one came into being; there are many incarnations of Ramchandra and Krishna.

66810 ਦਸਮ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਪੰਨਾ ੪੮ ਪੰ.

The Guru's Ram on the other hand is Waheguru Akal Purakh as proved by Bhagat Kabir Ji's Shabad. Of course many Hindus argue that thats only Bhagat Kabir Ji's thinking. But we have to remember that the Gurus, Bhagats, Bhatts, Gursikhs in reality all had one Guru and that was God, Waheguru. It is him they tell man to worship not any son of Dasrath who couldn't protect even his own wife!

Now let us look at some facts about Ram Chandar, is he really an embodiment of Gurmat?

1.) Bali, the king of Kishkindha was at war with Raksash named Mayavi. Bali pursued Mayavi deep into a cave in the earth. Before going he asked his brother, Sugriva to wait outside the cave. Sugriva however had other plans. He returned to Kishkindha and declared himself King. As prime minister he appointed Hanuman, the simian demi-God. In this grab of power he derived Angad, the son of Bali of kingship.

When Bali came out of the cave, after killing his nemesis he did not find Sugriva there. After coming to know of what had transpired he raised an army and drove Sugriva out of Kishkindha. The two brothers were now openly at war and had become enemies. Knowing fully well the deception of Sugriva and his greed Ram Chandar (the so-called king of Dharma) still decided to help him against forth righteous Bali. In one of the battles fought between the two brothers, Ram 'Ji' hid behind a tree and through deception gave orders to kill Bali. After Bali's death he appointed Sugriva as the king of Kishkindha. The kingship belonged to the next of kin Angad, yet Angad was forgotten in all this. Sugriva had already proven his colours once so could not have been appointed as the boy's supervisor, yet what did Ram 'Ji' do though? He helped in the demise of an innocent king and that too through deception. It was due to this incident that Sugriva offered to help Ram 'Ji' in attacking Ravan.

Many anti-Panthic forces have the cheek to compare this incident with Guru Gobind Singh Ji's helping of Bahadur Shah. One fact straight away destroys this comparision, and that fact is that Bahadur Shah was the rightful heir to Aurangzeb's throne. Secondly he had himself gone to Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a supplicant. Guru Sahib helped him, irregardless of his (Bahadur Shah's father's misdeeds). Nor did Guru Ji fear the mughals, who at this stage had given up pursuing him and after Aurangzeb's fanatic policies were beginning to crumble. The very fact that Bahadur Shah had to ask Guru Ji for assistance in helping crush rebellion against him by various members of his families shows the weakness of the mughals. Furthermore the mughal records at the time can prove this.

2.) According to the 'Balmik Sarg' (6-115) after the deaths of Ravan, and his son Inderjeet; Hanuman brought Seeta to Ram 'Ji'. Great king Ram 'Ji' however couldn't care less at this stage.

taaM tu paarshve sthitaaM prahvaaM raamaH saMprekShye maithiliim |

hR^idayaantargataM bhaavaM vyaahartumupachakrame || 6-115-1

1. samprekShya= seeing; taam maithiliim= that Seetha; sthitaam= who stood; paarshve= at his vicinity; prahvaam= bowing low; raamaH= Rama; upachakrame= began; vyaahartum= to tell; bhaavam= his feeling; hR^idayaantargatam= hidden in his heart (as follows).

Seeing that Seetha, who stood at his vicinity bowing low, Rama began to tell his feeling hidden in his heart (as follows):

eShaasi nirjitaa bhadre shatruM jitvaa raNaajire |

pauruShaadyadanuShTheyaM mayaitadupapaaditam || 6-115-2

2. bhadre= my dear lady!; eShaa= you; asi= are; nirjitaa= won back (by me); jitvaa= after conquering; shatrum= the enemy; raNaajire= in the battle-field; tat yat= that which; anuShTheyam= is to be done; pauruShaat= through human effort; upapaaditam= has been accomplished; mayaa= by me.

"You are won back by me, after conquering the enemy in the battle-field, my dear lady! That which is to be done through human effort, has been accomplished by me."

gato.asmyantamamarShasya dharShaNaa saMpramaarjitaa |

avamaanashcha shatrashcha yugapannihatau mayaa || 6-115-3

3. gataH asmi= I have come to; antam= the end; amarShasya= of my indignation; dharShaNaa= and my outrage; sampramaarjitaa= has been completely requited; shatrushcha= and the enemy; anumaanashcha= as well as the contempt; nihatau= have been wiped out; yugavat= all at once; mayaa= by me.

"I have come to the end of my indignation and my outrage has been completely requited as also the contempt against the enemy have been wiped out, all at once, by me."

adya me pauruShaM dR^iShTamadya me saphalaH shramaH |

adya tiirNapratijJNo.ahaM prabhavaamyadya chaatmanaH || 6-115-4

4. adya= now; me= my; pauruSham= manly strength; dR^iShTam= has been seen (by all); adya= today; me= my; shramaH= toil; saphalaH= has borne fruit; adya= now; aham= I; tiirNa pratijJNaH= have fulfilled my promise; adya= today; prabhavaami= I am the master; aatmanaH= of myself.

"Now, my manly strength has been seen by all. Today, my toil has borne fruit. Now, I have fulfilled my promise. Today, I am the master of myself."

yaa tvaM virahitaa niitaa chalachittena rakShasaa |

daivasaMpaadito doSho maanuSheNa mayaa jitaH || 6-115-5

5. yaa tvam= you, who; virahitaa= became deserted from me; niitaa= was taken away; chalachittena rakShasaa= by a ficle-minded demon; doShaH= the wrong; daivasampaaditaH= brought about by the destiny jitaH= has been corrected; mayaa= by me; maanuSheNa= a human being.

"The wrong done to you, when you were deserted from me, in that you were taken away by a fickle-minded demon, which was ordained by the destiny, has been corrected by me as a human being."

saMpraaptamavamaanaM yastejasaa na pramaarjati |

kastasya pauruSheNaartho mahataapyalpachetasaH || 6-115-6

6. kaH arthaH= what is the use; pauruSheNa= of a prowess; tasya mahataapi alpachetasH= of a weak-minded man, even if it is mighty; yaH na pramaarjati= who does not wipe out; sampraaptam avamaanam= the insult fallen to his lot; tejasaa= by means of his energy?

"What is the use of a prowess, however great, of that weak-minded man who does not wipe out, by his energy, the insult fallen to his lot?"

laN^ghunaM samudrasya laN^kaayaashchaapi mardanam |

saphalaM tasya cha shlaaghyamadya karma hanuumataH || 6-115-7

7. shlaaghya= the praise-worthy; karma= act; tasya hanuumataH= of that Hanuma; laN^ghanam= (namely) the crossing; samudrasya= of the ocean; mardanam cha= and the destroying; laN^kaayaaH= of Lanka; the destroying; laNKaayaaH= of Lanka; adya= today; saphalam= has borne fruit.

"The praise-worthy act of Hanuma in the form of crossing of the ocean and the destroying of Lanka, has borne fruit today."

yuddhe vikramatashchaiva hitaM mantrayatastathaa |

sugriivasya sasainyasya saphalo.adya parishramaH || 6-115-8

8. parishramaH= the endeavour; sugriivasya= of Sugreeva; sa sainyashcha= together with his army; vikramataH= for his attack; yuddhe= in the battle; tathaa= and; mantrayataH= his counsel; hitam= of a good advice; saphalah= is fruitful; adya= today.

"The endeavour of Sugreeva, who exhibited his prowess on the battle-field with his army and tendered a good advice, is fruitful today."

vibhiiSaNasya cha tathaa saphalo.adya parishramaH |

viguNaM bhraataraM tvaktvaa yo maaM svayamupasthitaH || 6-115-9

9. tathaa= furthermore; parishramashcha= the exertion; vibhiiShaNashcha= of Vibhishana; yaH= who; tyaktvaa= after abandoning; bhraataram= his brother; viguNam= who was void of good qualities; svayam= andpersonall; upasthitaH= reached; maam= me; saphalaH= is fruitful; adya= today.

"Furthermore, the exertion of Vibhishana, who after deserting his brother who was void of good qualities, sought my presence, is fruitful today.

ityevaM vadataH shrutvaa siitaa raamasya tadvachaH |

mR^igiivotphullanayanaa babhuuvaashrupariplutaa || 6-115-10

10. shrutvaa= hearing; tat= those; vachaH= words; vadataH= spoken; tiyevam= thus; raamasya= by Rama; siitaa= Seetha; utphullanayanaa= her eyes wide open; mR^igiiva= like those of a female-deer; babhuuva was; ashrupariplutaa= filled with tears.

Hearing those words spoken thus by Rama, Seetha with her eyes wide open like those of a female-deer, was bathed in tears.

pashyatastaaM tu raamasya samiipe hR^idayapriyaam |

janavaadabhayaadraajJNo babhuuva hR^idayaM dvidhaa || 6-115-11

11. hR^idayam= the heart; raajJNaH raamasya= of King Rama; pashyataH= as he saw; taam= Seetha (hR^idaya priyaam= the beloved of his heart); samiipe= near him; babhuuva dvidha= was torn; janavaada bhayaat= for fear of the talk of the public.

The heart of King Rama, as he saw Seetha, (the beloved of his heart) near him, was torn for fear of public scandal.

siitaamutpalapatraakShiiM niilakuJNchitamuurdhajaam |

avadadvai varaarohaaM madhye vaanararakShasaam || 6-115-12

12. madhye= in the midst; vaanara raakShasaam= of monkeys and demons; avadat vai= Rama spoke; siitaam= to Seetha; utpala patraakShiim= whose eyes resembled the petals of a lotus; niila kuN^jitu muurdhajaam= hair, dark in hue as also curled; vanaarohaam= and hips, excellent.

In the midst of monkeys and demons, Rama spoke (as follows) to Seetha, whose eyes resembled the petals of a lotus, who wore dark curly hair and was endowed with fine hips.

yatkartavyaM manuShyeNa dharSaNaaM pratimaarjataa |

tatkR^itaM raavaNaM hatvaa mayedaM maanakaaN^kkShiNaa || 6-115-13

13. mayaa= by me; maanakaaN^kShiNaa= wanting for an honour; tat idam= this particular act; yat= which; kartavyam= ought to be done; manuShyeNa= by a man; kR^itam= has been done; hatvaa= in killing; raavaNam= Ravana; pratimaarjitaa= and thus wiping away; dharShaNaam= the insult.

"I, wanting for an honour, have done this particular act, which ought to be done by a man, in killing Ravana and thus wiping away the insult meted out to me."

nirjitaa jiivalokasya tapasaa bhaavitaatmanaa |

agastyena duraadharShaa muninaa dakShiNeva dik || 6-115-14

14. nirjitaa= (you have been) won by me; bhaavitaatmanaa= whose mind stands purified; tapasaa= by asceticism; dakShiNaa dik iva= as the southern quarter; duraadharShaa= which was difficult to be approached; jiivalokasya= by the world of mortals; (was conquered by) agastyena= by the Sage Agastya.

"You have been won by me, whose mind stands purified by asceticism as the southern quarter, which was difficult to be approached by the world of mortals, was conquered by the Sage Agastya."

viditashchaastu bhadraM te yo.ayaM raNaparishramaH |

sutiirNaH suhR^idaaM viiryaanna tvadarthaM mayaa kR^itaH || 6-115-15

rakShataa tu mayaa vR^ittamapavaadam cha sarvataH |

prakhyaatasyaatmavaMshasya nyaN^gaM cha parimaarjataa || 6-115-16

15-16. viditaH astu= let it be known (to you); ayam yuddhaparishramaH= that this endeavour in the shape of war; sutiirNaH= which has been successfully carried through; viiryaat= due to the strength; suhR^idaam= of my friends; na kR^itaH= was not undertakne; tvadartham= for your sake; te bhadram astu= let there be happiness to you!; mayaa= (this was done) by me; rakShataa= in order to keep up; vR^itam= my good conduct; parimaarjitaa= and wipe off; apavaadam cha= the evil-speaking; sarvataH= from all sides; nyaNgam= as well as the insinuation; prakhyaatasya aatmavamshasya= on my own illustrious dynasty.

"Let it be known to you that this endeavor in the shape of war, which has been successful carried through, due to the strength of my friends was not undertaken for your sake. Let there be prosperity to you! This was done by me in order to keep up my good conduct and to wipe off the evil-speaking from all sides as well as the insinuation on my own illustrious dynasty."

praaptachaaritrasaMdeha mama pratimukhe sthitaa |

diipo netraaturasyeva pratikuulaasi me dR^iDham || 6-115-17

17. praapta chaaritra sandehaa= (You) with a suspicion arisen on your character; sthitaa= standing; pratimukhe= in front of; mama= me; dR^iDham pratikuulaa api= are extremely disagreeable; me= to me; diipaH iva= even as a light; netraaturasya= to one, who is suffering from a poor eye-sight.

"You, with a suspicion arisen on your character, standing in front of me, are extremely disagreeable to me, even as a light to one, who is suffering from a poor eye-sight."

tadgachchha tvaanujaane.adya yatheShTaM janakaatmaje |

etaa dasha disho bhadre kaaryamasti na me tvayaa || 6-115-18

18. janakaatmaje= O Seetha!; tat= that is why; anujaane= I am permitting; tvaa= you; adya= now; gachchha= go; yatheShTam= wherever you like; tetaaH dasha dishaH= to any of these ten directions; naasti= there is no; kaaryam= work to be done; me= to me; tvayaa= by you; bhadre= my dear lady!

"O Seetha! That is why, I am permitting you now. Go wherever you like. All these ten directions are open to you, my dear lady! There is no work to be done to me, by you."

kaH pumaaMstu kule jaatah striyaM paragR^ihoShitaam |

tejasvii punaraadadyaat suhR^illekhyena chetasaa || 6-115-19

19. kaH tejasvii pumaan= which noble man; jaataH= born; kule= in an illustrious race; aadadyaat= will take; punaH= back; striyam= a woman; paragR^ihoShitaam= who lived in another's abode; suhR^illekhyena chetasaa= with an eager mind?

"Which noble man, born in an illustrious race, will take back a woman who lived in another's abode, with an eager mind?"

raavaNaaN^kaparikliShTaaM dR^iShTaaM duShTena chakShuShaa |

kathaM tvaaM punaraadadyaaM kulaM vyapadishan mahat || 6-115-20

20. vyapadishan= while mentioning about; mahat kulam= my great lineage; katham= how; aadadyaam= can I accept; punaH= again; tvaam= you; raavaNaaN^ka parikliShTaan= who were harassed in Ravana's lap while being borne away by him) dR^iShTaam= and who were seen (by him) duShTena chakShuShaa= with evil looks?

"While mentioning greatly about my lineage, how can I accept again, you who were harassed in Ravana's lap (while being borne away by him) and who were seen (by him) with evil looks?"

tadarthaM nirjitaa me tvaM yashaH pratyaahR^itaM mayaa |

naasth me tvayyabhiShvaN^go yatheShTaM gamyataamitaH || 6-115-21

21. tvam nirjitaa= you were won; me= by me; tadartham= for that end (viz. retrieval of my lost honour); yashaH= the honour; pratyaahR^itam= has been restored; mayaa= by me; me= for me; na asti= there is no; abhiShvaN^gaH= intense attachment; tvayi= in you; gamyataam= you may go; yatheShTam= wherever you like; itaH= from here.

"You were won by me with that end in view (viz. the retrieval of my lost honour). The honour has been restored by me. For me, there is no intense attachment in you. You may go wherever you like from here."

Seeta's reply was one of sorrow and supplication. She begged Ram 'Ji' to let her prove her innocence. Hence an agni pariksha, or test of fire was decided upon. Agni,^ the God of fire appeared and himself told Ram 'Ji' Seeta was innocent. Agni commanded Ram 'Ji' to take her back. But more suffering was still in store for Seeta.

Ram 'Ji' back in Ayodhya became king, yet he did not treat Seeta like his wife or queen and tongues started to wage. Especially when Seeta became pregnant. The court jester reported this to Ram 'Ji' and Ram 'Ji' ordered brother Lakshman to take Seeta to the Ganges and leave her there alone and friendless. Lakshman completed the task left up to him and a heavily pregnant woman was left to the mercy of nature. Yet there is one even above the Hindu Gods* who smiled upon her, and soon his devotee Balmik found her and took her in. In time Seeta gave birth to two boys, Luv and Khush who became deadly archers like their fickle-minded father.

Even Ram 'Ji' had heard of Balmik and invited him to a Yajna. Alongwith Balmik went the two boys. At Ayodhya they sang songs about their mother and Ram 'Ji' asked to their background. They told him they were the sons of a woman who was banished to the forest by an unworthy and weak minded husband, on hearing this Ram ‘Ji’ realised that these boys were talking about none other than him. After revealing to the duo who he really was he asked Seeta to come back to Ayodhya in an assembly of saints and prove her innocence. Seeta presented herself and gave testimony saying, she had never thought about any other man than Ram. Even in her dreams. But Seeta was not ready to forgive Ram Ji herself. She said that let the earth swallow her, and it is said that the earth opened and she fell in the fissure. Clearly she had had enough of a fickle-minded and suspicious husband.

According to Gurmat a woman is pure and equal to man in all respects.** Hence her opinion should be asked on all matters. The Gurus did not definitely worship such a figure who was so stone-hearted that he left his wife at the mercy of the elements. Ram ‘Ji’ would definitely have taken the seven vows of marriage (according to Hindu tradition) in the presence of fire which bound him to fidelity and life-long companionship. Yet he broke this vow, another sign of non-Gurmat as a Gurmukh is one who does not break his word.***

3.) The description of Ram ‘Ji’s’ lifestyle is one totally rejected by Gurmat. According to Balmik Ji (Read Uttra Khand) Ram 'Ji'‘used to watch Apasaras (beautiful women) dancing and enjoyed liquor of the finest quality. Ram ‘Ji’s’ drinking bouts lasted well into the night and many beautiful women were brought for him from China and Manchuria. It is for this lavish lifestyle that Balmik Ji has rightly labelled Ram ‘Ji’ as a “prince among ladies’ men.” He was even a consumer of meat. All these actions do not tally with any figure of dharma (religion) or righteousness and is very far from the course of Gurmat.

4.) Over the course of time, it has been said many times that Ram Chander was a just man/demi-god. Let us look at the truth of this statement. A Brahman’s son died a premature death and a Shudra named Shambhuk was blamed. Shambhuk’s only sin was that he undertook religious rituals. The Brahmin conveyed his news and distress to Ram ‘Ji’ and asked for justice. According to Gurmat all the four varnas or castes have the right to seek God and perform religious rituals,

ਬ੝ਰਹਮਨ ਬੈਸ ਸੂਦ ਅਰ੝ ਖ੝ਯ੝ਯਤ੝ਰੀ ਡੋਮ ਚੰਡਾਰ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਨ ਸੋਇ ॥

ਹੋਇ ਪ੝ਨੀਤ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਜਨ ਤੇ ਆਪ੝ ਤਾਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਕ੝ਲ ਦੋਇ ॥੧॥

Barahman bais sūḝ ar kẖa­yṯarī dom cẖandĝr malėcẖẖ man so­ė.

Ho­ė punīṯ bẖagvanṯ bẖajan ṯė ĝp ṯĝr ṯĝrė kul ḝo­ė. ॥1॥

Whether he is a Brahmin, a Vaishya, a Soodra, or a Kh'shaatriya;

whether he is a poet, an outcaste, or a filthy-minded person, he becomes pure,

by meditating on the Lord God. He saves himself,

and the families of both his parents. ॥1॥

(SGGS p858).

According to Ram ‘Ji’ howver, this was not the case, he immediately reached the spot where Shambhuk was doing religious practices and without warning cut of his head. A great deed on the part of a God. And as if to justify this deed, many Brahmins say that the prematurely expired son came back to life after this deed of Ram ‘Ji’. Furthermore to give the episode more religious significance it is said that the other Gods hailed this act of Ram ‘Ji’.

5.) Ravan needed no bridge to come to the Indian mainland from Lanka, but Ram Ji needed a bridge to go to him. Furthermore such a vast bridge was completed in only 5 days? Who was more powerful? The bridgeless or the one who needed the bridge? All this in the face of Ram Ji having many flying chariots. It is mentioned in Uttra Khand: “Countless chariots were flying in the sky. Their shadows on earth looked like the multitudes of locusts.” All these chariots belonged to Ram Ji yet he still needed a bridge.

6.) Ravan having more than one head. We believe this is a symbolisation of Ravan’s strength and/or bhagti which has been wrongly misinterpreted.

In all this let us conclude as to the imperfections of Ram ‘Ji’ in the terms of Gurmat:

1.) The slaying of innocent Bali.

2.) The mistreatment of Seeta.

3.) The slaying of an innocent Shudra.

4.) Ram ‘Ji’s’ birth.

To sum up Ram ‘Ji’ was neither the perfect king or husband. Neither was he virtuous or loving towards all his subjects. He was bound by the mentality of stratification and lead an anti-Gurmat life. Guru-Sahibaan definitely do not mean this Ram when they say:

ਬਿਲਾਵਲ੝ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

ਭੂਲੇ ਮਾਰਗ੝ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਬਤਾਇਆ ॥ ਝਸਾ ਗ੝ਰ੝ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥

ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ੝ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥ ਬਸਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗ੝ਰ ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੝ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨ੝ ਲੀਨਾ ॥ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟਿ ਮ੝ਕਤਿ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਕੀਨਾ ॥੨॥

ਦ੝ਖ ਸ੝ਖ ਕਰਤ ਜਨਮਿ ਫ੝ਨਿ ਮੂਆ ॥ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗ੝ਰਿ ਆਸ੝ਰਮ੝ ਦੀਆ ॥੩॥

ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂਡਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਹ ਪਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗ੝ਰਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੮॥

Bilaaval, Fifth Mehla:

He places the one who strays back on the Path; such a Guru is found by great good fortune. ||1||

Meditate, contemplate the Name of the Lord, O mind. The Beloved Feet of the Guru abide within my heart. ||1||Pause||

The mind is engrossed in sexual desire, anger, greed and emotional attachment. Breaking my bonds, the Guru has liberated me. ||2||

Experiencing pain and pleasure, one is born, only to die again. The Lotus Feet of the Guru bring peace and shelter. ||3||

The world is drowning in the ocean of fire. O Nanak, holding me by the arm, the True Guru has saved me. ||4||3||8||

bilaaval mehalaa 5 ||

bhoolae maarag jinehi bathaaeiaa || aisaa gur vaddabhaagee paaeiaa ||1||

simar manaa raam naam chithaarae || bas rehae hiradhai gur charan piaarae ||1|| rehaao ||

kaam krodhh lobh mohi man leenaa || ba(n)dhhan kaatt mukath gur keenaa ||2||

dhukh sukh karath janam fun mooaa || charan kamal gur aasram dheeaa ||3||

agan saagar booddath sa(n)saaraa || naanak baah pakar sathigur nisathaaraa ||4||3||8||


^ It seems Agni is more superior than Ram ‘Ji.’

* God. According to Gurbani Bhagat Balmik was a worshipper of Akal Purakh. In terms of Gurmat the Ramayan or tale of Ram ‘Ji’ is only a record by him not a scripture.

ਬਾਲਮੀਕੁ ਸੁਪਚਾਰੋ ਤਰਿਓ ਬਧਿਕ ਤਰੇ ਬਿਚਾਰੇ ॥

Baalameek Supachaaro Thariou Badhhik Tharae Bichaarae ||

बालमीकु सुपचारो तरिओ बधिक तरे बिचारे ॥

Baalmeek the outcaste was saved, and the poor hunter was saved as well.

42735 ਮਾਰੂ (ਮ: ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੯੯ ਪੰ. ੫

Raag Maaroo Guru Arjan Dev

(Maru Mahala 5, pg. 999).

** From woman, man is born;

within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

Guru Nanak, Raag Aasaa Mehal 1, Page 473.

Bhai Gurdas pays further tributes to a woman in his vaar:

“A woman is the favourite in her parental home loved dearly by her father and mother. In the home of her in-laws, she is the pillar of the family, the guarantee of its good fortune. Sharing in spiritual wisdom and enlightenment and with the noble qualities, with which (the Creator) has endowed her, a woman, the other half of man, escorts him to the door of liberation."


***According to various rehatnamas Gurmukh is one who never goes back on his word.


Many Hindus say that Ram is not a God but someone who embodies perfection. A virtuous and noble figure. However Ram’s legend does not hold true to this claim.

Sikhs are forbidden from drinking and looking at a women (immorally) other than their own rightful spouse. Ram ‘Ji’ however was the opposite of this. It is said in the Balmik Ramayan, Sarg 125, Shalok 44: “He offered him (Hanuman) villages, 100 cows and 16 beautiful virgins.” Clearly a man who gave women away in this manner would not have stopped at the thought of treating them as sexual objects.

In the Rehatnames it has been written: ‘Par nari ki sej, bhul supne hun na jayo' (never enjoy, even in dream, the bed of a woman other than your own wife) (A supplementary ordinance was issued that any one who did not observe any of the four directives, must be re- baptized, pay a fine, and promise not to offend any more; or he must be excommunicated from the Khalsa).

Concerning intoxicants:

ਸ੝ਆਦ ਲ੝ਭਤ ਇੰਦ੝ਰੀ ਰਸ ਪ੝ਰੇਰਿਓ ਮਦ ਰਸ ਲੈਤ ਬਿਕਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਭਾਗ ਸੰਤਨ ਸੰਗਾਨੇ ਕਾਸਟ ਲੋਹ ਉਧਾਰਿਓ ਰੇ ॥੩॥

Su▫ĝḝ lubẖaṯ inḝrī ras pareri▫o maḝ ras laiṯ bikĝri▫o re. Karam bẖĝg sanṯan sangĝne kĝsat loh uḝẖĝri▫o re. (3)

Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, who are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine are corrupt.

But those who, through destiny and good karma, join the Society of the Saints, float over the ocean, like iron attached to wood.(3)

(SGGS p335).

More shabads can be found.

An immoral man such as Ram ‘Ji’ cannot be the Ram which the Guru’s taught about. He is clearly a mortal ingrossed in himself.

Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji fought for religion. He battled the Mughals four times and achieved a stunning victory over them in each battle. Through his battles he expounded the need of weapons for a religion under persecution. Guru Gobind Singh Ji also fought 14 battles in the same spirit against Hindu and muslim fanatics. Ram ‘Ji’ only fought a battle for his own personal slight. Nor did he leave any Granth or teachings as his legacy. Clearly he is not a religious figure.

Although it is agreed Balmik composed original Ramayana it is today a matter of debate as to the verses prevalent in the epic. Originally thought to be 24,000, today it consists of 40,000. Hindu extremists have no explanation to this.

Many historians believe that Balmik Ji borrowed Ramayana from the Buddhist Dasrath Jatka and changed the storyline. The Buddhist version states that Sita was the sister of Ram 'Ji.' Hence he committed incest by marrying her.

Mahatma Gandhi never condemned caste-ism, he only condemned untouchability as a physical act.

Ayodhya is described as a city with sky scrapers and infrastructure embedded with gems. Archaeologists are yet to find all this.

Ram Chandar is not found in the Vedas.

Now I want to do one on how Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not an incarnation of Krishna and how Krishna differs from Gurmat. Can anyone provide me with info that is shabads from Gurbani and Dasam Granth to start me off please?

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Best thing to do to fight rss propaganda is present sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale write up on of avtars and satguru nanak dev ji with uthanka sakhi during sri guru maharaj time, this is arguably best reply without going to extreme lengths of khandan mandan against avtars that our sikhs are goes to to the point that they are going contary to gurmat to fight rss.

Here is the translations by kam1825 from japji sahib tika by sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale :


One day while Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji were holding a congregation one of the Sikhs asked “What type of incarnation was the first Sikh Guru, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and were they independent and complete?â€

According to Hindu belief there are many types of incarnations but for God there are six. These are the following; -

- Ansa Avtar

- Avesha Avtar

- Nit Avtar

- Namitak Avtar

- Pooran Avtar

- Pooran Tam Avtar

To this question Guru Gobind Singh Ji answered the following; -

1) Ansa Avtar is an incarnation of the Lord in the form of a righteous king who rules the people of his kingdom in accordance to the will of God. The people of the kingdom revere their ruler as God

2) Avesha Avtar is an incarnation or a divine form of God, which appears in order to please its devotee such as that of a statue drinking milk from Bhagat Namdev Ji. It is also the form of Parasram who was born without divine powers but acquired them later on in his life through devotion to God.

3) Nit Avtar is the form of God as a saint on earth. These are Sants, Mahapurkh, Brahmgiani, etc.

4) Namitak Avtar is the form of God that was assumed by Narsingh and Bawan. Narsingh came to the earth in order to protect his devotee Prahlad while Bawan came in order to deceive King Bali. After both had done their respected tasks they went back to heaven and never actually took birth on the earth.

5) Pooran Avtar is the incarnation that has 16 divine attributes and characteristics. Only Krishna has been born of this form.

6) Pooran Tam Avtar is regarded as that of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji as they came to the earth with the same powers as they had in heaven as the supreme Lord. They also came into the world already with knowledge and did not need to find any teachers, as they were already the one true master.

* According to Bhindra Samparda of Damdami Taksal the six avtars differ. They are written and explained below. These are the following; -

- Ansa Avtar

- Avesha Avtar

- Kalaa Avtar

- Nit Avtar

- Namit Avtar

- Pooran Avtar

To this question Guru Gobind Singh Ji answered the following; -

1) Ansa Avtar is an incarnation of the Lord in the form of a righteous king who rules the people of his kingdom in accordance to the will of God. They treat all of the people of their kingdom as if they were their own children and care for them as a father would do for his offspring. An example of this type of incarnation is that of King Manu or King Prithu.

2) Avesha Avtar is an incarnation or a divine form of God. This is a form of God, which is initially born or created without any powers however through the love devotion and meditation of the Lords name that individual gains powers. An example of this incarnation is one of Vishnu’s incarnation by the name Parasram. When he was initially born he had no powers but through the worship of God he gained spiritual powers.

3) Kalaa Avtar is an incarnation in which for the sake of the world or for a certain need have some types of powers. Such as Vishnu’s first two Avtars of Mach and Kach. In the form of Mach Avtar, which was an incarnation in the form of a fish, he had two powers in order to destroy the demon known and Sankhasar and save the Vedas from the depth of the sea. In the form of the Kach Avtar , which was the incarnation in the form of a tortoise, he had two powers out of the sixteen so that he could balance the Sumer Mountain on his back so that the ocean could be churned. These incarnations are distinct to the rest of the people of the world and are known as Kalaa Avtars.

4) Nit Avtar is the form of God as a saint on earth. These are Sants, Mahapurkh, Brahmgiani, etc. They come to the earth in order to spread the conventional rules, traditions and practices of the meditation of God to the people

5) Namit Avtar is an incarnation, which comes to the earth in order to complete a certain task, and following this disappears. An example of this is when the devotee of God by the name of Prahlad was in danger Vishnu assumed the form of Narsingh and came to protect him. Vishnu also assume the form of Bavan Avtar in order to trick King Bali into giving the control of the Heavens and Earth back to the demi gods. Following both of the incarnations completing their specific tasks they disappeared.

6) Pooran Avtar is the incarnation of Sri Krishna and Sri Ram Chandar out of the 24 incarnations of Vishnu. Sri Ram Chandar had 14 of the 16 powers while Sri Krishna possessed all 16 powers.

The sixteen powers or qualities possessed by the incarnations are the following; -

Knowledge, Attention, Virtuous Acts, Persistence, Moderation, Faith, Charity, Skill, Meditation, Loving Acts, Control over Passion, Spiritualism, Mercy, Solemn Promise, Intelligence and a Clear Mind.

There are another sixteen powers or qualities possessed by the incarnations which are written about. These are the following; -

Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Sky, Vital Air for Breathing, Organs, Name of God, Actions, Faith, Place in Society, Devotion, Incantation, Desire, Semen and Physique

After explaining this the congregation asked, “Are Guru Nanak Dev Ji the same as the Pooran Avtar or do they not possess all of the qualities?â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji replied, “Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not lack any of the qualities. They however were greater for five reasons.â€


Guru Gobind Singh Ji went on to explain the five qualities.

1) Shakti – This means powers.

Sri Ram Chandar showed his powers to his mother Kashuliya. When his mother went to pray to the goddess at that point Sri Ram Chandar replaced the image of the goddess with himself to show her his powers.

Sri Krishna also showed his powers to his mother Devki. He pretended to eat some dirt so when she forced him to open his mouth and see what he had eaten he showed that he had the whole of creation in his mouth. She saw the complete universe. During the Mahabharat war Sri Krishna showed his disciple Arjan a divine form of himself called the Vairat Saroop (explained further on).

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were born in the village of Talwandi and at that moment they showed their mother Mata Tripta Ji and aunt their miracle. At the ambrosial hour all of the demi gods came to worship Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. They sat Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji on a throne and started to worship them and bow to them. They rubbed sandalwood into the skin of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and placed a garland of flowers around their neck. They then made a supplication to Guru Nanak Dev Ji and said, “O protector of the meek and true king. You are the transcendent formless being. You have taken this form and come to the world in order to save the world and all of humanity. You are also the protector of all of the demi gods.†In this way the demi gods were making supplications to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. At that point Mata Tripta awoke and wondered who was around her son and revering him? At that point all of the demi gods disappeared. She saw that her son had marks of saffron and sandalwood all over him and on his forehead and the smell of the sandalwood was overwhelming. At that point Mata Tripta Ji gained full faith that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was indeed the incarnation of the divine Lord. But at that moment in order to conceal the powers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji he covered his mothers mind in the veil of illusion, which is called Maya. Just as a child cries in order to get milk that is what Guru Nanak Dev Ji did, by doing so Mata Tripta Ji forgot what had just occurred and became attached to her child. For this reason they are no less then Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna in the amount of power they possess.

They are greater however due to other miracles. Whilst being asleep a cobra provided Guru Nanak Dev Ji with shade. Another occasion the shade of a tree covered them with shade even though the shade was in a different direction to all the others. They replenished a field with its entire crop when cows had eaten all of the harvest. In Medina the grave of the Islamic prophet paid their salutations to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. In Mecca the Kabba turned in the direction that Guru Nanak Dev Ji faced their feet. It is still in the direction that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had their feet pointing. Guru Nanak Dev Ji made the soap nuts on a tree they were sitting under taste sweet and are still to this day and can be eaten. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took all of the powers away from the Sidhs and then later returned them. Guru Nanak Dev Ji imprinted their palm print in a rock that was being hurled at them. Guru Nanak Dev Ji parted rivers and mountains in order to gain access to the other side when travelling. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to walk on water as if it was land. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to show a person thousands of heavens and underworlds in a second. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to make a boiling cauldron turn cold in a second. These are but a few examples of how great Guru Nanak Dev Ji were and how their powers were superior.

The other incarnations used their powers to increase their popularity and greatness. Guru Nanak Dev Ji used their powers in order to make other people learn the correct path and believe in one God. They did not do it in order to make them more popular.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji showed their powers in order to save others and to destroy their ego. In order to destroy Vali Kandhari’s ego they took his water from him. They prevented Gorakh Nath from having the strength to pick up a piece of wheat to destroy their ego.

For these reasons Guru Nanak Dev Ji have an endless amount of powers. They have no powers less then any other incarnations but have more and are greater. They are the holders of great power.

Sri Krishna was the possessor of 16 powers but Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji had an infinite number of powers and was the incarnation of the divine Lord.

2) Viaktee – This is the name for the form of a being.

The form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is greater then that of all of the other incarnations. Throughout the whole life of Sri Ram Chandar’s life and Sri Krishna’s life they never grew any facial hair. During the youthful years of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s life when they had no facial hair we can say that there form was equal to the other incarnations. Then a beautiful beard grew on the form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji so that other saints would recognise them and their form became greater.

In the treta age when Sri Ram Chandar went to marry Sita they left Ayodhiya to go to Janakpur in order to meet her. All of the of the royal maidens were enchanted by the beauty of Sri Ram Chandar. Due to this Sri Ram Chandar told them that he would satisfy their needs in the Dwaper age.

In the Dwaper age the royal maidens assumed the form of the Gopis and Sri Krishna tended to their physical and sexual needs.

Due to the forms of both Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna they caused lust with the opposite sex and could not eradicate this cardinal sin.

When Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to the area of Sangla Deep, which is now referred to as Sri Lanka all of the beautiful women tried to enchant Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji through the power of the word of God destroyed the lust that was in the heart of the beautiful women. By singing the gospel of the Lord and saying the name of God they were able to bring peace to the hearts of the beautiful women. They no longer lusted and by seeing the Guru they were forever in bliss and were at peace.

Due to being able to dispel the lust in others the form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was greater then that of the other incarnations.

3) Pragya – This is the name of a person’s knowledge of God and the name of God.

Sri Ram Chandar made Rishi Vashisht their spiritual master. They spent 68 days with them in which they learned the Vashisht Puran in order to gain the divine knowledge of God. He then spent 8 days with Rishi Vishwamitar who he adopted as his master in martial arts from who they learned the knowledge of weapons.

Sri Krishna made Rishi Darbasha their spiritual master. They spent 8 days with then in which they learned the scriptures in order to gain the divine knowledge of God. He then spent 64 days with Rishi Sandeepan who he adopted as his master in martial arts from who they learned the knowledge of weapons.

The father of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Baba Kaliyan Chand (Kalu Ji) took their son to the teacher Gopal Pandhay in order to study. They went on the first day in accordance to what his parents wanted and learned the alphabet. The second day they went they just remained silent. Even when Gopal Pandhay told him to read Guru Nanak Dev Ji ignored him. Gopal Pandhay then asked, “All of the other children are reading and learning. Why are you not doing the same?†Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, “ All these things that you are teaching can be erased. One should learn those things that stay with an individual.†The teacher thought to himself and said to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, “I am unable to teach this to you, I only know how to teach mathematics and basic language. With your grace please tell us of this knowledge you want to be taught.â€

Guru Nanak Dev Ji in answer to this sang the word of God. After hearing this divine hymn Gopal Pandhay was reassured about what Guru Ji wanted to hear and it was about the divine Lord. By giving this short discourse Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji exalted and delighted Gopal Pandhay.

On the third day when Baba Kaliyan Chand came to the school with Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, they asked Gopal Pandhay to teach their son.

Gopal Pandhay said, “ Your son is the creator of all of the knowledge. Do not worry about him learning. They are not here to learn but will teach others instead.â€

Due to this Baba Kaliyan Chand took Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Mulla Noor Deen in order to learn Farsi. Again on their first day Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji said a hymn, which was a divine message from God.

By doing this Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught the people they were supposed to learn from rather then gaining knowledge from their teachings. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave the Mulla divine knowledge and exalted them.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji never made any person their spiritual master. Rather the people they were sent to learn from became their disciples and accepted Guru Nanak Dev Ji as their spiritual master.

The other incarnations for a small number of days adopted spiritual masters in order to gain knowledge. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was unique in the way that they already had divine knowledge and never needed to learn from another.

Unlike the other incarnations Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji never had to learn the knowledge of weapons. They used the word of God as a metaphysical weapon to destroy the vices of other people. Due to the greater knowledge of the word of God and using it as a weapon Guru Nanak Dev Ji were greater then any other incarnation. Many philosophers and Sikh writers do suggest that they did have complete knowledge of weapons but never used them. They passed this knowledge onto one of their devotees by the name of Baba Buddha Ji to teach the Sikhs when they needed it. Baba Buddha Ji were later the teacher of marital arts to the sixth Sikh Guru, Sri Guru Hargobind Ji.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not have less intelligence then that of the other incarnations but more. The intelligence that they possessed was infinite and greater then all others. No other incarnation even came close to the intelligence and knowledge possessed by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.


4) Kartab – This is ones show of skill.

In the age of Treta the life of Sri Ram Chandar lasted for 10,000 years. During that time the only time they showed their skill when they were exiled for 14 years. During that time Ravan kidnapped the wife of Sri Ram Chandar. Due to this Ram and Ravan waged war against each other. Ram killed the demon Ravan and freed his wife Sita and the other demi gods that had been captured. After killing Ravan, Ram appointed Bhabhikhan as the new ruler of Sri Lanka. After the 14 years of exile he went back to rule the kingdom of Ayodhiya. Whilst he was ruling he made a promise that no child should die before their mother and father. After making this promise a son of a Brahman who lived in Ayodhiya died. The Brahman came to Sri Ram Chandar and accused him of being a liar. He stated that Sri Ram Chandar had no power as the promise that he made failed. He said if he did have the power then he should make his son come back to life.

Sri Ram Chandar asked the Brahman why this child had died. He was told it was due to a person of a low caste had started to meditate in the jungle, he stated this was the only reason why the child had died.

At that time a male of the low caste by the name of Sanboock was hung upside down in a well meditating on the Lord. Sri Ram Chandar went to that location and beheaded Sanboock and brought the son of the Brahman back to life. This account is written about in both the Balmik Ramayan and the Sri Dasam Granth.

By accident Sri Ram Chandar fought against his sons Love and Kush. His sons injured or killed his entire army including Sri Ram Chandar. Only due to the goodness of Sita he was brought back to life. Still Sri Ram Chandar passed the reign of the kingdom over to his two sons. This was due to his attachment with his family.

Sri Krishna after killing Kans he placed his maternal grandfather named Ugarsain on the throne to rule the kingdom. This showed his attachment to his family.

However Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji for the first 28 years stayed in the city of Sultanpur and worked in the granary. After doing this they went into the Beas River and went to heaven there. Here they adopted God as their only spiritual master. They were given the root incantation here and following which saved all of humanity with the knowledge of the Lord. They travelled far and wide doing this. They did not speak of any other demi god or prophet other then God.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not show any attachment to their sons but showed may feats of skill. Instead of installing one of their sons in their position they appointed one of their disciples.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji met many evil kings such as Devloot, Lajvarad and Babur. Rather then killing them they gave them knowledge in order to make them understand the message of God and to help humanity. The demon Kauda, the thieves Bhumai and Sajjan were made to repent what they were doing and became saints. They made all the evil people good with the teachings they imparted. They saw no difference between social class, gender, age, etc and imparted the same message to all the people of the world.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in order to avoid many troubles showed much skill.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not show any less skill then any other incarnation. They actually showed greater skill then all others.

5) Aayoo – these are acts performed for others good.

Sri Ram Chandar lived for 10,000 years. Due to listening to the Brahmans they killed a person of a low caste. They also handed the reign of the land to his two sons.

Sri Krishna lived for 1,000 years. He believed Jadva to be an egotistical person due to this he got Rishi Darbasha to curse him so that he would die.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a king and a saint at the same time. In order to bring any other being back to life they never killed another. By bringing that person back to life they would give them the name of God so that they could save and bring back to life many other people.

This is the same with the 3rd, 5th, 9th and 10th Sikh Guru’s. The third Guru, Sri Guru Amar Das Ji whilst the spiritual master of the Sikhs for 22 years no one died in the village of Gobindwal. No matter if old or young no one died during the 22 years that Sri Guru Amar Das Ji was in the city of Gobindwal. No one was ill as well. This showed that the Guru’s of the Sikhs were greater then that of the incarnations.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji lived for 70 years and during that time travelled more then Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna did. Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna never travelled further then Indian and Sri Lanka. Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to Kashmir, Nepal, Bhutan, China, Tibet, Sikam, Burma, Africa, Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Russia. They travelled to these countries and more all by foot. In the ballads written by Bhai Gurdas Ji it states the Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji actually travelled the whole world and met all the people of all nations. Guru Nanak Dev Ji saved that many souls that they cannot all be accounted for.

In such a small life Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji helped an infinite number of people. They got the root incantation from heaven and spread it through the seven lands of India and all of the continents throughout the world. They taught all the people to meditate on the name of the one true Lord. They started the faith of Sikhism. They created the true congregation. They made other people meditate on the Lord.

As of all of the good things that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did during such a short span of life none of the other incarnation did.

The examples show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not lack any Shakti, Viaktee, Pragya, Kartab and Aayoo considering they had a shorter life then any of the other incarnations. If they are an incarnation they cannot be seen as any less of an incarnation then a Pooran Avtar. If they are a Pooran Avtar they are not like Vishnu’s incarnations of Sri Ram Chandar or Sri Krishna. Sri Ram Chandar possessed 14 divine qualities while Sri Krishna possessed 16 divine qualities. However in the age of Kaljug having 16 divine qualities was not sufficient. For this reason Guru Nanak Dev Ji possessed an infinite number of divine qualities. This made Guru Nanak Dev Ji greater then the two greatest incarnations of Vishnu. Guru Nanak Dev Ji were themselves God incarnated on the earth and not a demi god.


The congregation heard this and asked Guru Gobind Singh Ji, “ We believe that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are a divine incarnation and a complete one. But tell us what authenticity you have to say that they are complete?â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, “There are three types of authenticity that I can give you. They are the Vedic authenticity, Lokik authenticity and Svai authenticity.â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji went on to explain all three.

1) Vedic authenticity. This is where the proof of the incarnation is written about in the scriptures.

Examples of this are written about in the Gopal Tapnee Upanishad, Surtee Parmaan & the Bhagvat Da Parmaan.

Another example to show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are commonly regarded as God is written about in the Bhavishat Puran. Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s arrival on earth was predicted by Rishi Ved Vyas who wrote in the Bhavishat Puran 12 saloks in the 24th Adhayi (stanza). In this text it is written that in the Dark Age Guru Nanak Dev Ji will be the saviour of the world. These can be found from salok 33 to 44.

2) Lokik authenticity. This is where people from the period of time of the Guru’s wrote their own facts about the messengers of God.

An example of this is the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji who state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji are themselves God incarnate. They state this in // 1 stanza 23, // 28 stanza 1 and // 38 stanza 20.

The bhatts (bards) also wrote in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji also state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji were God themselves incarnate.

Without Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji along with their other forms as Guru’s including with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there would never have been another incarnation or prophet who was equal to God. In the Bihangam Marg book and the Janam Sakhi it states that when Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in heaven God said to them, “Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji I am the transcendent God and you are the non transcendent God. Between us and yourself there is no difference.â€

This story again shows that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the complete incarnation of God and no other.

3) Svai authenticity. This is the authenticity written by the following Gurus after Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Examples of this are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where the other Guru’s have stated Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are God.

The three authenticities show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in fact God and not an incarnation of any demi god. They were a complete incarnation.

Sri Ram Chandar were an incarnation of power and the ideal way of life. They were an incarnation attributed to truth.

Sri Krishna were an incarnation where they were attributed to passion and royalty. They played the role of the king and were filled with passion. Sri Krishna married 16,108 Gopis.

Parasram was an incarnation where they were attributed to the darkness and evil. This is due to him destroying the social class of the Kashatris 21 times during his life.

All three of these are incarnations of the demi god Vishnu and possessed all the three main virtues.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji possessed all of the virtues but were the form of God.

In the first age the incarnations came to look after all of humanity and creation. They destroyed their enemies. In the Bhagvat Gita and the Sri Dasam Granth it is written that at the end of the Dark Age the incarnation of Kalki will appear to destroy the wicked people. When the time is right that incarnation will appear. However Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the 6th and 10th form in order to protect righteousness they had to destroy an endless number of wicked people. Due to their deeds you can still see Hindus in India today, as without the Sikh Guru’s no Hindus would have survived. There is no doubt to the incarnation of the Sikh Gurus. The amount of teachings that the Gurus gave about religion and faith was far more then any other persons have done. No matter how many knowledgeable people there are, devotees of the lord and teachers they will never be equal to the Lord himself.

Many knowledgeable people have come to the world and shared their knowledge but have only done so with a certain social group. The message that was also given is only suitable for that group. The message of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is for all of mankind. Those people who doubt the divine incarnation of God shall be destroyed.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were the incarnation of God. They were the spiritual master of the world. From the beginning they were the true spiritual master.

hopefully that will answer the question posed on this thread. Kam.


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Thank u everyone I will post my write up on Krishna in the coming few months. Please do ardass for me to be blessed with more such seva. If u have any criticism please message it to me or post on the thread. N30S1NGH thank u very much. I will surely store that.

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