Japping Naam - How Important?

[N30S1NGH]

That make sense..thanks reminds me of discussion bijla veer and i had on nirgun and sargun-

http://www.sikhsangat.com/Index.php?/topic/66285-sargun-nirgun-nirankar/

[Consciousness]

That make sense..thanks reminds me of discussion bijla veer and i had on nirgun and sargun-

http://www.sikhsanga...irgun-nirankar/

You and Bijla singh have done those discussions to death LOL

If this helps I agree with you a lot more

Although the problem I saw was this when you two talked about sargun and nirgun:

Some words are impossible to describe as words by themselves are dependent on time so there will be discrepancies when I or anyone describes nirgun and also sargun. How can you define Nirgun and talk about how sargun arose from something timeless - arose itself implies a past tense!! All words get lost.. One gets mute.

[Bijla Singh]

The pankti in Akal Ustat does not condemn Naam jaap of Gurmantar. Gurbani again and again stresses on obtaining Naam and practicing it. It cannot be rejected by Guru Sahib. Gurbani, however, rejects physical external rituals that are empty from within or devoid of any spirituality. Jaap in the pankti refers to uttering mantras of vedas which Hindus recite to attain some type of reward. Certain mantras in the Vedas (especially Rig Veda) are recited for particular purpose and to a particular deity. Indra is the main deity in the Rig Veda but other deities are also invoked by some mantras. These are purely ritualistic. Further, there is no personal God assumed in the Vedas who should be worshipped. No union is sought with God. Hence, Guru Sahib rejected repetition of such mantras because they are devoid of God’s love or prema bhagti. Anytime in Gurbani or Dasam Granth, repetition of mantras is rejected; it refers to Vedas and Hindu mantras. If you read the rest of the shabad, you will realize that it rejects all external rituals like taap (making the body suffer) and sati (immolation) etc.

Repetition of Gurmantar is recommended for many reasons. It is obtained from Satguru. It is Naam. It refers to worshipping One Supreme Reality. It makes the devotee God-oriented and purifies the inner-self. Gurmantar is revealed whereas mantras of Vedas are not revelatory. Practicing Gurmantar is the highest of all deeds and it washes away our filth. Those who do not obtain it from Satguru but still recite it will also obtain bliss and experience peace and tranquility. But they will have to practice more and the benefits will be less. They also will not get salvation or union with Waheguru. Guru Rakha

[SheikhFareed]

Anytime in Gurbani or Dasam Granth, repetition of mantras is rejected; it refers to Vedas and Hindu mantras.

Veerji, thanks for taking the time to reply

But this above point, how can you say that as a whole? Surely gurmantar is also a mantar. How can you say when mantar jap is rejected it refers to hindu mantars, and when accpeted it menas gurmantar?

Also in the thukh above it says 'Thuhi, thuhi'.. This mantar is not a Hindu mantar, so that wont fit what you said. as guru gobind singh said thuhi 16,000 times when reciting akal ustat sahib, but was cut down to 16 when written.

Daasan daas.

[Only five]

When a person reads Gurbani with pyare, there is a constant awareness that builds up in a person and to increase the divine experience a person needs to do simran. Simran inside a person starts when Gurbani is sung for long hours or over many days with an intense desire to keep going.

There are thousands of shabads that tell us to do simran. If you don't listen to, read Gurbani with pyare, then simran will not start in you. You can surely keep repeating Vaheguru, but there will be no deep growth to experience the divine.

[Bijla Singh]

But this above point, how can you say that as a whole? Surely gurmantar is also a mantar. How can you say when mantar jap is rejected it refers to hindu mantars, and when accpeted it menas gurmantar?

Because Gurbani is not contradictory. Dhur Ki Bani cannot be rejecting its own teachings. Whenever Gurmantar is mentioned, it refers to being obtained from Satguru. It is also referred to as Naam. Whereas mantras of vedas are rejected along with tantra and jantra. You can study Gurbani to find this fact yourself. Gurbani says:

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ॥ ਮਿਟੇ ਵਿਸੂਰੇ ਉਤਰੀ ਚਿੰਤ ॥੨॥

ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੜਾ ਚਿਤਾਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਥੀਵਈ ॥੨॥

This means reciting Gurmantar is a mandatory. Sure, Gurmantar is a mantar but it is given by Guru and it is revealed. This is what makes it different. Mantras rejected in Gurbani do not refer to Gurmantar as it will amount to Guru Sahib rejecting His own teaching. Mantras that are rejected are written in Vedas not in Quran and Bible. Gurbani says:

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਜੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੜੈ ਜੁਗ ਚਾਰਿ ॥

Filth of mind/sins cannot be washed away by reading Vedas. However, it is washed by Naam.

ਭਰੀਐ ਮਤਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਧੋਪੈ ਨਾਵੈ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ॥

It proves that Naam or Gurmantar has the power that Vedas do not. Vedas are not revealed nor do they have Naam which is only obtained from Satguru. Also, Vedas do not assume a personal God. Different mantras invoke different deities. A bird has no gyan of God and it cannot obtain Naam from Satguru. Attaining God is only possible in human birth. A child doing simran in the womb does not mean it recites Gurmantar. There are different kinds of simran and all are not equal. They have their own benefits but highest of all is Gurmantar.

If you still insist that mantras in Vedas are not rejected then provide your evidence. You will be insinuating that Gurbani contradicts itself. Further, it will imply that Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejected the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib.

Also in the thukh above it says 'Thuhi, thuhi'.. This mantar is not a Hindu mantar, so that wont fit what you said. as guru gobind singh said thuhi 16,000 times when reciting akal ustat sahib, but was cut down to 16 when written.

“Tuhi Tuhi” is not a mantar in itself. Guru Nanak Dev Ji became vismaadi by saying “tera tera” but the word itself is not a mantar. So what exactly are you implying? That a bird says tuhi tuhi and cannot attain Waheguru but Guru Gobind Singh Ji said it and obtained immense bliss? Guru Sahib worshipped Waheguru but a bird does not know God. Reciters of Vedas do not know God. Vedas do not even preach monotheism. One needs a priest to recite such mantras and only a selected few are taught their recitation. Once again, read the entire shabad first before jumping to false conclusions. It talks about ritualism and their futility. First line rejects physical suffering, second ritualistic recitation of mantras (not Gurmantar), third rejects breathing techniques and last immolation and applying ashes on the body. All these are empty rituals and external in nature. It is foolish and pure manmat to use a pankti rejecting futile rituals and apply it to Gurmat principles. Missionaries are misusing Gurbani the say way to reject Naam Simran and Amrit Vela. Sikhs these days have stopped doing any veechar of Gurbani and resorted to misusing Gurbani to reject Gurmat while defending falsehood of other religions. This is why panth is not progressing.

I cannot spend too much time on arguing over this. You need to study Gurbani first. Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

ਧ੍ਰਿਗ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਵਿਣੁ ਹੋਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮਰਣੀ॥

Fie on that tongue, which remembers mantras other than the Guru-mantra. (Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 27, Pauri 10)

[N30S1NGH]

Jaap in the pankti refers to uttering mantras of vedas which Hindus recite to attain some type of reward. Certain mantras in the Vedas (especially Rig Veda) are recited for particular purpose and to a particular deity. Indra is the main deity in the Rig Veda but other deities are also invoked by some mantras. These are purely ritualistic. Further, there is no personal God assumed in the Vedas who should be worshipped. No union is sought with God. Hence, Guru Sahib rejected repetition of such mantras because they are devoid of God’s love or prema bhagti. Anytime in Gurbani or Dasam Granth, repetition of mantras is rejected; it refers to Vedas and Hindu mantras. If you read the rest of the shabad, you will realize that it rejects all external rituals like taap (making the body suffer) and sati (immolation) etc.

Repetition of Gurmantar is recommended for many reasons. It is obtained from Satguru. It is Naam. It refers to worshipping One Supreme Reality. It makes the devotee God-oriented and purifies the inner-self. Gurmantar is revealed whereas mantras of Vedas are not revelatory. Practicing Gurmantar is the highest of all deeds and it washes away our filth. Those who do not obtain it from Satguru but still recite it will also obtain bliss and experience peace and tranquility. But they will have to practice more and the benefits will be less. They also will not get salvation or union with Waheguru. Guru Rakha

Singh you are sensible independent khoji..i still have lot to learn from you. I respect your research but you are clearly out of depth in this one. Your claim gurbani pankiti above is only meant and limited to do khandan of hindu mantra to get award is highly inaccurate, guru maharaj updesh is sanjha applies to everyone including sikhs. Guru Maharaj knew the future of sikhs who will wrap their head around the rituals (rituals are not bad thing but wrapping your head around it or idiolizing them are condemned in gurmat)- make no mistake sri akaal ustat may be recited to break empty dogmatic mindset of that time, but sri akaal ustat gurbani is agami it applies to all human race including sikhs regardless of jugs or time or setting regardless of any dharam..Sri Akaal Ustat serve as cautionary bani to Sikhs. Guru Maharaj updesh is sanjha to all. Above gurbani tukh in orginal post clearly talking about empty naam simran without any emotions (bairaag or prem) and it will applies to everyone whether you like it or not....You make it sound like sikhs are immune from all dogmatic mindset. Really? Have you looked around recently? This is not limited to any jatha or samparda may be punjabi tribal thing but naam simran which supposed to be full with emotions- loving/vahiguroo guru sahib di yaad vich/bairaag ch/vahiguroo milaap ch (pure sufism style love) is been reduced to robotic systematic simran without any emotions where mindset is more concerned about getting small kicks by hyper ventilating during simran, more concerned about techanalities into listening to dhuniyas-panch shabad/opening up kundalini,nabhi kamal, dasam dwar or more concerned about doing x number of patts for personal benefit/personal desires fulfilled instead of ajap jap. Gurbani is been used as commodity to fulfill our own personal desires of either getting cars, son, marriage, visa, immigration?

We live in fear and trembling by this protestant version of 'wrathful vahiguroo' which will doom us into narakhand if kachera fell off from both legs while performing bhog with our wives.

I have hardly met a singh who is happy and who laughs they all serious and gives me rigid robotic fateh to me why? because i wear england style pag? I did switch to dumalla..it was interesting experience..lol..i do wear neela dummalla now singh because i didn't want to be isiolated and lonely with my broken england style pagh..but sad thing is singh i don't have to switch pagg style.

Can we truly say sikhs beleive in this pankiti?

ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥2॥

Can we truly says sikhs beleive in this pankiti?

ਏਕ ਚਿੱਤ ਜਿਹ ਇਕ ਛਿਨ ਧਿਆਇਓ ॥

एक चि्त जिह इक छिन धिआइओ ॥

He Who meditates upon Him with single mind even for an instant;

ਕਾਲ ਫਾਸਿ ਕੇ ਬੀਚ ਨ ਆਇਓ ॥੧੦॥

काल फासि के बीच न आइओ ॥१०॥

He doth not come within the trap of death. 10.

The fact is sargun rituals are integral part in the panth but just like everything in sikhi, its a double edge sword. If not used caution or failure to understand tat gyan in Sikhi same sargun rituals which are supposed to take you and connect you with nirgun becomes nothing but road block which can only broken by guru sahib or bhramgyani mahapursh..!!

If there is no bairaag and prem everything is a road block regardless of x number of patts or x hours of naam smagams etc. Only thing remains until end/until kirpa is bairaag and prem.

I will end with amazing bairaagi kirtan by gyani amalok singh ji akj and baba mohinder singh

http://forums.wahegu...bairaag-kirtan/

[luckysingh99]

The tukh quoted simply states that parrot repetition alone of a gurmantar is not what it is all about.

There is no point naam japping if your mind is not in it.

If it is simplt uttering without any vibration of the shabad within, then you are wasting your time!!!

[Bijla Singh]

Bhai Sahib, I have never claimed that Gurbani does not apply to Sikhs. However, Gurbani does not reject itself. When Gurbani rejects Vedas it is because Vedas do not offer unity with Waheguru. When you criticize faults of Sikhs, it is not the fault of Gurbani or its principles but lack of properly following Gurmat. Gurbani is revealed and its power is not selective. Its nature does not change. Just as water clears filth, Gurbani cleanses one’s filth of sins regardless of who practices it. Just like air provides life to everyone, Gurbani provides spiritual awakening to everyone. Just like fire does not change its nature of burning, Gurbani does not change its nature of burning sins. All are welcome to practice it. I refuse to accept any notion that Gurbani practice without any love is fruitless. How can one have true love without practicing Gurbani first? Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji have written in their books that Naam abhiyaas starts with mechanical repetition using tongue and slowly it starts to go down in throat, then in breaths and eventually submerges into every pore. As mind gets cleaned, it starts to get filled with love. Those who never get serious about achieving Waheguru will never get there but Gurbani practice is never fruitless.

I personally started Gurbani practice with a viewpoint of achieving miraculous powers so I could use them for my own benefit. As some miracles started to happen, I started to feel more and more love for Gurbani and I stopped wishing for any worldly things. Of course, I sometimes ask for worldly things but this is not my objective of following Sikhi. Those who remain entangled with materialistic things use up their kamayee and they never make any effort for progress but this is not the fault of Gurbani nor is naam simran wrong. The fault lies with selfish and egoistic attitude of the so-called Sikhs who treat Gurmat like a business. I have seen many who practice Gurmat for some worldly things and when they get them, they stop practicing Gurmat. This proves that Gurbani practice works and it is not fruitless. I understand your point that Sikhs need to shed their worldly thinking and adopt Gurmat in all seriousness. External rehat by itself is fruitless and ritualistic which is why Gurbani does not focus much on it. Any external rehat that has connection with the inner self is approved in Gurmat. This is why Gurbani or Gurmantar repetition even for the sake of worldly achievement does not go wasted. However, the devotee must be making an effort to follow Gurmat properly once he achieves his objectives. If he does not then it is his fault. On the other hand, practice of vedas is purely ritualistic and external. It has no connection to the inner purification whatsoever nor is it fruitful. It keeps one tied to the Brahaminic system which is why it is rejected in its entirety. Gurbani is clear that one can read vedas for four yugs but his inner filth will not be washed away. Gurbani on the other hand does just that because it is revealed and one with Waheguru.

I also understand your point about Sikhs being too stuck in their jathas. I have gone through this personally but again only Sikhs are to be blamed for this. Most Sikhs do not understand and follow Gurmat. My advice would be to seek sangat of elder gursikhs. I have found it to be better than sangat of my own age. I have also experienced the fact that more simran you do more sangat will be provided to you. In other words, your sangat will be based on your own avastha. So do more simran so that Guru Sahib puts you in touch with same type of Sikhs. However, I personally feel that you are stuck in some mindset that prevents you from making progress. I could be wrong but your posts sometimes do make it apparent but I rather not write it here and leave it to you to discover it. This jatha mentality is plain garbage and will eventually end. Only Khalsa shall remain.

What I write is my understanding and I do not claim to be 100% correct. I am willing to change my mind if proven wrong. After all, learning Gurmat is our goal. Guru Rakha

[Singh559]

Bhai Sahib, I have never claimed that Gurbani does not apply to Sikhs. However, Gurbani does not reject itself. When Gurbani rejects Vedas it is because Vedas do not offer unity with Waheguru. When you criticize faults of Sikhs, it is not the fault of Gurbani or its principles but lack of properly following Gurmat. Gurbani is revealed and its power is not selective. Its nature does not change. Just as water clears filth, Gurbani cleanses one’s filth of sins regardless of who practices it. Just like air provides life to everyone, Gurbani provides spiritual awakening to everyone. Just like fire does not change its nature of burning, Gurbani does not change its nature of burning sins. All are welcome to practice it. I refuse to accept any notion that Gurbani practice without any love is fruitless. How can one have true love without practicing Gurbani first? Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji have written in their books that Naam abhiyaas starts with mechanical repetition using tongue and slowly it starts to go down in throat, then in breaths and eventually submerges into every pore. As mind gets cleaned, it starts to get filled with love. Those who never get serious about achieving Waheguru will never get there but Gurbani practice is never fruitless.

I personally started Gurbani practice with a viewpoint of achieving miraculous powers so I could use them for my own benefit. As some miracles started to happen, I started to feel more and more love for Gurbani and I stopped wishing for any worldly things. Of course, I sometimes ask for worldly things but this is not my objective of following Sikhi. Those who remain entangled with materialistic things use up their kamayee and they never make any effort for progress but this is not the fault of Gurbani nor is naam simran wrong. The fault lies with selfish and egoistic attitude of the so-called Sikhs who treat Gurmat like a business. I have seen many who practice Gurmat for some worldly things and when they get them, they stop practicing Gurmat. This proves that Gurbani practice works and it is not fruitless. I understand your point that Sikhs need to shed their worldly thinking and adopt Gurmat in all seriousness. External rehat by itself is fruitless and ritualistic which is why Gurbani does not focus much on it. Any external rehat that has connection with the inner self is approved in Gurmat. This is why Gurbani or Gurmantar repetition even for the sake of worldly achievement does not go wasted. However, the devotee must be making an effort to follow Gurmat properly once he achieves his objectives. If he does not then it is his fault. On the other hand, practice of vedas is purely ritualistic and external. It has no connection to the inner purification whatsoever nor is it fruitful. It keeps one tied to the Brahaminic system which is why it is rejected in its entirety. Gurbani is clear that one can read vedas for four yugs but his inner filth will not be washed away. Gurbani on the other hand does just that because it is revealed and one with Waheguru.

I also understand your point about Sikhs being too stuck in their jathas. I have gone through this personally but again only Sikhs are to be blamed for this. Most Sikhs do not understand and follow Gurmat. My advice would be to seek sangat of elder gursikhs. I have found it to be better than sangat of my own age. I have also experienced the fact that more simran you do more sangat will be provided to you. In other words, your sangat will be based on your own avastha. So do more simran so that Guru Sahib puts you in touch with same type of Sikhs. However, I personally feel that you are stuck in some mindset that prevents you from making progress. I could be wrong but your posts sometimes do make it apparent but I rather not write it here and leave it to you to discover it. This jatha mentality is plain garbage and will eventually end. Only Khalsa shall remain.

What I write is my understanding and I do not claim to be 100% correct. I am willing to change my mind if proven wrong. After all, learning Gurmat is our goal. Guru Rakha

Beautifully written and thanks for sharing your personal experience and advice.