Japping Naam - How Important?

[ks55]

Absolutely terrific post by Bijla singh

As once Sant Hardev Singh Lullo wale said - those religions were previous jugs - were all created by the almighty and time and time again the power of the almighty to help mankind has come on this earth - at this moment in time Dhan SGGS is the power and the ultimate that will be helpful towards any kalyugi human as in Kalyug Maharaaj Dhan Guru Nanak's bani - naam will be and remain to be the saviour for this planet - PERIOD.

[luckysingh99]

Bhai Sahib, I have never claimed that Gurbani does not apply to Sikhs. However, Gurbani does not reject itself. When Gurbani rejects Vedas it is because Vedas do not offer unity with Waheguru. When you criticize faults of Sikhs, it is not the fault of Gurbani or its principles but lack of properly following Gurmat. Gurbani is revealed and its power is not selective. Its nature does not change. Just as water clears filth, Gurbani cleanses one’s filth of sins regardless of who practices it. Just like air provides life to everyone, Gurbani provides spiritual awakening to everyone. Just like fire does not change its nature of burning, Gurbani does not change its nature of burning sins. All are welcome to practice it. I refuse to accept any notion that Gurbani practice without any love is fruitless. How can one have true love without practicing Gurbani first? Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji have written in their books that Naam abhiyaas starts with mechanical repetition using tongue and slowly it starts to go down in throat, then in breaths and eventually submerges into every pore. As mind gets cleaned, it starts to get filled with love. Those who never get serious about achieving Waheguru will never get there but Gurbani practice is never fruitless.

I personally started Gurbani practice with a viewpoint of achieving miraculous powers so I could use them for my own benefit. As some miracles started to happen, I started to feel more and more love for Gurbani and I stopped wishing for any worldly things. Of course, I sometimes ask for worldly things but this is not my objective of following Sikhi. Those who remain entangled with materialistic things use up their kamayee and they never make any effort for progress but this is not the fault of Gurbani nor is naam simran wrong. The fault lies with selfish and egoistic attitude of the so-called Sikhs who treat Gurmat like a business. I have seen many who practice Gurmat for some worldly things and when they get them, they stop practicing Gurmat. This proves that Gurbani practice works and it is not fruitless. I understand your point that Sikhs need to shed their worldly thinking and adopt Gurmat in all seriousness. External rehat by itself is fruitless and ritualistic which is why Gurbani does not focus much on it. Any external rehat that has connection with the inner self is approved in Gurmat. This is why Gurbani or Gurmantar repetition even for the sake of worldly achievement does not go wasted. However, the devotee must be making an effort to follow Gurmat properly once he achieves his objectives. If he does not then it is his fault. On the other hand, practice of vedas is purely ritualistic and external. It has no connection to the inner purification whatsoever nor is it fruitful. It keeps one tied to the Brahaminic system which is why it is rejected in its entirety. Gurbani is clear that one can read vedas for four yugs but his inner filth will not be washed away. Gurbani on the other hand does just that because it is revealed and one with Waheguru.

I also understand your point about Sikhs being too stuck in their jathas. I have gone through this personally but again only Sikhs are to be blamed for this. Most Sikhs do not understand and follow Gurmat. My advice would be to seek sangat of elder gursikhs. I have found it to be better than sangat of my own age. I have also experienced the fact that more simran you do more sangat will be provided to you. In other words, your sangat will be based on your own avastha. So do more simran so that Guru Sahib puts you in touch with same type of Sikhs. However, I personally feel that you are stuck in some mindset that prevents you from making progress. I could be wrong but your posts sometimes do make it apparent but I rather not write it here and leave it to you to discover it. This jatha mentality is plain garbage and will eventually end. Only Khalsa shall remain.

What I write is my understanding and I do not claim to be 100% correct. I am willing to change my mind if proven wrong. After

all, learning Gurmat is our goal. Guru Rakha

That is the most inspiring way to tell us the importance and significance of naam japping.

I hope we can ALL learn from this.

Bhai Sahib, I have never claimed that Gurbani does not apply to Sikhs. However, Gurbani does not reject itself. When Gurbani rejects Vedas it is because Vedas do not offer unity with Waheguru. When you criticize faults of Sikhs, it is not the fault of Gurbani or its principles but lack of properly following Gurmat. Gurbani is revealed and its power is not selective. Its nature does not change. Just as water clears filth, Gurbani cleanses one’s filth of sins regardless of who practices it. Just like air provides life to everyone, Gurbani provides spiritual awakening to everyone. Just like fire does not change its nature of burning, Gurbani does not change its nature of burning sins. All are welcome to practice it. I refuse to accept any notion that Gurbani practice without any love is fruitless. How can one have true love without practicing Gurbani first? Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji have written in their books that Naam abhiyaas starts with mechanical repetition using tongue and slowly it starts to go down in throat, then in breaths and eventually submerges into every pore. As mind gets cleaned, it starts to get filled with love. Those who never get serious about achieving Waheguru will never get there but Gurbani practice is never fruitless.

I personally started Gurbani practice with a viewpoint of achieving miraculous powers so I could use them for my own benefit. As some miracles started to happen, I started to feel more and more love for Gurbani and I stopped wishing for any worldly things. Of course, I sometimes ask for worldly things but this is not my objective of following Sikhi. Those who remain entangled with materialistic things use up their kamayee and they never make any effort for progress but this is not the fault of Gurbani nor is naam simran wrong. The fault lies with selfish and egoistic attitude of the so-called Sikhs who treat Gurmat like a business. I have seen many who practice Gurmat for some worldly things and when they get them, they stop practicing Gurmat. This proves that Gurbani practice works and it is not fruitless. I understand your point that Sikhs need to shed their worldly thinking and adopt Gurmat in all seriousness. External rehat by itself is fruitless and ritualistic which is why Gurbani does not focus much on it. Any external rehat that has connection with the inner self is approved in Gurmat. This is why Gurbani or Gurmantar repetition even for the sake of worldly achievement does not go wasted. However, the devotee must be making an effort to follow Gurmat properly once he achieves his objectives. If he does not then it is his fault. On the other hand, practice of vedas is purely ritualistic and external. It has no connection to the inner purification whatsoever nor is it fruitful. It keeps one tied to the Brahaminic system which is why it is rejected in its entirety. Gurbani is clear that one can read vedas for four yugs but his inner filth will not be washed away. Gurbani on the other hand does just that because it is revealed and one with Waheguru.

I also understand your point about Sikhs being too stuck in their jathas. I have gone through this personally but again only Sikhs are to be blamed for this. Most Sikhs do not understand and follow Gurmat. My advice would be to seek sangat of elder gursikhs. I have found it to be better than sangat of my own age. I have also experienced the fact that more simran you do more sangat will be provided to you. In other words, your sangat will be based on your own avastha. So do more simran so that Guru Sahib puts you in touch with same type of Sikhs. However, I personally feel that you are stuck in some mindset that prevents you from making progress. I could be wrong but your posts sometimes do make it apparent but I rather not write it here and leave it to you to discover it. This jatha mentality is plain garbage and will eventually end. Only Khalsa shall remain.

What I write is my understanding and I do not claim to be 100% correct. I am willing to change my mind if proven wrong. After all, learning Gurmat is our goal. Guru Rakha

That is the most inspiring way to put the importance and sigificance of naam japping.

I hope we can ALL learn from this.

[Consciousness]

Any mantra/ repetition (tuhee in the case of the tuk) of any word is time bound this also applies when saying waheguru in the mind or out loud. The Gurmat way is to discover the anhad shabad, which is always there for everyone regardless of religion (na roop na rang na rekh etc). Anhad shabad is not a sound or word it is the ajap, which would apply to the tuk you posted earlier.

ਜਾਪ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਪੈ ਪਾਯਤ ਅਜਾਪ ਦੇਵ ਪੂਦਨਾ ਸਦੀਵ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਉਚਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

One who discovers this anhad shabad will discover the Lord there will be no death, amrit is found here and death to the shabad occurs. But one who hasn't found the nirgun quality of the shabad has not found naam.

Some people limit naam so much that they only call repeating waheguru with 'love' naam but this is incorrect. They also say that it removes the sins and over time you'll become sinless. This is wrong Naam is so powerful that it removes all sins instantly and you become one with God. If you are doing naam and haven't realised the Lord then it is not the 'right' naam. More shabad veechar needs to be done.

When you discover anhad shabad (unstruck/ No shabad) you'll be the Lord himself - no sin or anything can touch you. This occurs instantly beyond time. Gurbani is 100% correct.

Naam in gurbani means God himself there is a big difference between someone reciting God's name and God himself.

ir hir nwmu jpy AwrwDy ivic AgnI hir jip jIivAw ]

har har naam japaeaaraadhhae vich aganee har jap jeeviaa ||

Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, and meditating on it within the fire of the womb, your life is sustained by dwelling on the Naam.

The naam here is clearly Gurmat naam i.e. anhad shabad, which is the Lord himself. Not a repetition of his name- because a baby cannot repeat God's name. NAAM in gurbani is the highest - it never implies to something else other than god. The same naam the baby has that has been forgotten needs to be discovered again.

[VanHelsingh]

Bhai Sahib, I have never claimed that Gurbani does not apply to Sikhs. However, Gurbani does not reject itself. When Gurbani rejects Vedas it is because Vedas do not offer unity with Waheguru. When you criticize faults of Sikhs, it is not the fault of Gurbani or its principles but lack of properly following Gurmat. Gurbani is revealed and its power is not selective. Its nature does not change. Just as water clears filth, Gurbani cleanses one’s filth of sins regardless of who practices it. Just like air provides life to everyone, Gurbani provides spiritual awakening to everyone. Just like fire does not change its nature of burning, Gurbani does not change its nature of burning sins. All are welcome to practice it. I refuse to accept any notion that Gurbani practice without any love is fruitless. How can one have true love without practicing Gurbani first? Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji have written in their books that Naam abhiyaas starts with mechanical repetition using tongue and slowly it starts to go down in throat, then in breaths and eventually submerges into every pore. As mind gets cleaned, it starts to get filled with love. Those who never get serious about achieving Waheguru will never get there but Gurbani practice is never fruitless.

I personally started Gurbani practice with a viewpoint of achieving miraculous powers so I could use them for my own benefit. As some miracles started to happen, I started to feel more and more love for Gurbani and I stopped wishing for any worldly things. Of course, I sometimes ask for worldly things but this is not my objective of following Sikhi. Those who remain entangled with materialistic things use up their kamayee and they never make any effort for progress but this is not the fault of Gurbani nor is naam simran wrong. The fault lies with selfish and egoistic attitude of the so-called Sikhs who treat Gurmat like a business. I have seen many who practice Gurmat for some worldly things and when they get them, they stop practicing Gurmat. This proves that Gurbani practice works and it is not fruitless. I understand your point that Sikhs need to shed their worldly thinking and adopt Gurmat in all seriousness. External rehat by itself is fruitless and ritualistic which is why Gurbani does not focus much on it. Any external rehat that has connection with the inner self is approved in Gurmat. This is why Gurbani or Gurmantar repetition even for the sake of worldly achievement does not go wasted. However, the devotee must be making an effort to follow Gurmat properly once he achieves his objectives. If he does not then it is his fault. On the other hand, practice of vedas is purely ritualistic and external. It has no connection to the inner purification whatsoever nor is it fruitful. It keeps one tied to the Brahaminic system which is why it is rejected in its entirety. Gurbani is clear that one can read vedas for four yugs but his inner filth will not be washed away. Gurbani on the other hand does just that because it is revealed and one with Waheguru.

I also understand your point about Sikhs being too stuck in their jathas. I have gone through this personally but again only Sikhs are to be blamed for this. Most Sikhs do not understand and follow Gurmat. My advice would be to seek sangat of elder gursikhs. I have found it to be better than sangat of my own age. I have also experienced the fact that more simran you do more sangat will be provided to you. In other words, your sangat will be based on your own avastha. So do more simran so that Guru Sahib puts you in touch with same type of Sikhs. However, I personally feel that you are stuck in some mindset that prevents you from making progress. I could be wrong but your posts sometimes do make it apparent but I rather not write it here and leave it to you to discover it. This jatha mentality is plain garbage and will eventually end. Only Khalsa shall remain.

What I write is my understanding and I do not claim to be 100% correct. I am willing to change my mind if proven wrong. After all, learning Gurmat is our goal. Guru Rakha

Awesome post. Eye-opening and extremely relevant.

[N30S1NGH]

Thanks for you post Bijla Singh ji.

Bhai Sahib, I have never claimed that Gurbani does not apply to Sikhs. However, Gurbani does not reject itself. When Gurbani rejects Vedas it is because Vedas do not offer unity with Waheguru. When you criticize faults of Sikhs, it is not the fault of Gurbani or its principles but lack of properly following Gurmat. Gurbani is revealed and its power is not selective. Its nature does not change. Just as water clears filth, Gurbani cleanses one’s filth of sins regardless of who practices it. Just like air provides life to everyone, Gurbani provides spiritual awakening to everyone. Just like fire does not change its nature of burning, Gurbani does not change its nature of burning sins. All are welcome to practice it. I refuse to accept any notion that Gurbani practice without any love is fruitless. How can one have true love without practicing Gurbani first? Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji have written in their books that Naam abhiyaas starts with mechanical repetition using tongue and slowly it starts to go down in throat, then in breaths and eventually submerges into every pore. As mind gets cleaned, it starts to get filled with love. Those who never get serious about achieving Waheguru will never get there but Gurbani practice is never fruitless .

I personally started Gurbani practice with a viewpoint of achieving miraculous powers so I could use them for my own benefit. As some miracles started to happen, I started to feel more and more love for Gurbani and I stopped wishing for any worldly things.

I never claimed its the fault of gurbani anywhere veer. Tuk below is meant for everyone. It applies to sikhs as well it clearly talks about 'robotic' (without any emotions) naam simran is fruitless. That does not mean naam simran is fruitless now that be contradictory within Gurbani. The keyword here is robotic. I am not missionary i would last one on this planet to target naam simran or beautiful sargun rituals concept. But just like gurbani we must do khandan or target mindset which made these beautiful concepts into robotic dogma.

ਜਾਪ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਪੈ ਪਾਯਤ ਅਜਾਪ ਦੇਵ ਪੂਦਨਾ ਸਦੀਵ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਉਚਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

If the unmutterable Lord can be realised by the repetition of His Name, then a small bird called pudana repeats "Tuhi, Tuhi" (Thou art everyting) all the time.

Agami Gurbani speaks to every human consciousness/perception at different avastha and different perception, its revolutanary itself as its break various road blocks whether is to do with inner or external sargun rituals.

Lets start from japji sahib. Japji sahib targets hypocrisy of mind where mind is wandering everywhere while rituals are being performed. Look at life of child who is start going to the path of sikhi- he/she learns about guru sahib first, history, learns about great sakhiya of naam jaap start with baby steps with gurbani kant first than vichar on gurbani which invokes devotion and faith on guru sahib before going straight to naam jap.

I guess the main crux of the discussion here is human behaviour first for eg- is reading inspirational stories of guru sahib and bhagats/adapting various rehat in sikhi/adapting updesh of sunnan/manan/nidashan in japji sahib/having an faith in gurbani through lives of guru sahib is required here or not before jumping straight to naam simran and which has its risk to be turned into robotic naam simran? Answers is Yes, for the most part.

Coming back to your post

I refuse to accept any notion that Gurbani practice without any love is fruitless

Does Gurbani have powers? Off course gurbani has powers..its after all agam agad bodh- Guru maharaj reveal gupti bani and bless whole humanity with it.

Does gurbani have elements to clean filth and provide spiritual awakening and provide bhramgyan? Off course there is no question about that. That's what gurbani meant to do.

Can human can feel power of gurbani without developing some sort of devotion or faith emotion initially to start up or later? If human is not simply attuned to it then NOO!! That's all its not fault of gurbani. Its human fault. I am not sure why you implying in the post that somehow i am pointing out thats its fault of gurbani where its not.

It's not fault of gurbani- gurbani is there, akhand bhramanad everywhere - its fault of silly human mind not being "attuned to it" or human putting the shield to prevent gurbani to do its work. Just like human wears coat to prevent feeling cold or windy? How's that fault of air? Just like human wears water jacket to prevent water to cleanse water? Hows that fault of water?

I understand your point if one start doing naam simran directly robotically devotion/emotions/love start coming all by itself? It's possible but its not a formula nor its rule thats exactly whats going to happen.. Its case by case basis as i mentioned gurbani speaks to all human consciousness sitting at different avastha/different perceptions. Whatever works for you does not mean it will work for everyone else and whatever does not work for me, that does not mean it will not work for anyone else. We need to accept this diversity. There are plenty of examples to show either side at the end its the karma intertwined with free will of an individual . Just because there are cases of devotion/emotion/love start coming by itself as individual got attuned to it does not mean it must work for everyone as everyone is at different state of mind, get attuned to gurbani power at different stages.

There are plenty of cases on other side as well- I can speak for one in my family who is been doing panj baniya nitneem for close to 20+ years very robotically- they are same as when they started same avguns, same everything. Again i m not pseduo missionary who would do khandan mandan of nitneem now its not gurbani fault -only twisted individual will claim its gurbani fault. Its fault of an individual failed to getting attuned to gurbani at the first place. Guru Maharaj went to mecca told the qazis around that time- all the panj namaz you did your mind was NOT attuned to it so you made it as mere karam kaand rise above from it...!!

Bhai Vir Singh Ji and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji have written in their books that Naam abhiyaas starts with mechanical repetition using tongue and slowly it starts to go down in throat, then in breaths and eventually submerges into every pore.

Thats interesting point- i also strongly beleive in ajap a jap- baikhari, madhma, pasanti and para bani as well. Gurbani is not against mindset following naam simran in stages and understand naam simran- where mechanical repetition is required and its just a stage.

We need to understand this subtleness here. Above gurbani tuk is against those who have no concept of naam simran stages (beleive me- we sikhs have our own large share of those start reciting naam simran as parrot without any sort of emotions/stages in mind at hand/love in hand towards what they are recititing.

I personally started Gurbani practice with a viewpoint of achieving miraculous powers so I could use them for my own benefit. As some miracles started to happen, I started to feel more and more love for Gurbani and I stopped wishing for any worldly things

You are lucky singh that you were in the border line of using powers for your own benefit but guru sahib have changed your thinking based on your karma and no its not automatically rule singh thats whats gurbani going to do making one feel more and more love towards itself, thats where individuals karma intertwines with free will coming in. I equally know some one who were not so lucky they still do this day use gurbani and preform ridhya sidhya from power of gurbani, its up to individual which way it takes the power of gurbani.

At the end, one cannot apply automatic rule to gurbani in doing so one un-intentionally de valuing paras kala gurbani itself. Gurbani is like rain, rain does not discriminate between poor and rich or status of human, rain pours on everyone but at the end of day, its up to the individual to get wet and dance in rain (gurbani) like peacock does or one simply walks through rain without getting wet using umbrella or rain coat each and everytime..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[N30S1NGH]

I understand this topic is to do with naam simran. But its also related to katha and naam simran as well. There is quite of diversity in the panth itself regarding that- you have substantial 80% of sikhs who listens to katha which invokes devotion/prem regarding guru sahib then slowly moving on to naam simran but then there is small marginal amount of singhs who are simply doing raw naam simran. You have mindset in sikhs who have turned katha into dogma in their lives equally you have mindset in sikhs who have turned naam simran into robotic naam simran without any emotions/or stages in mind (baikhari, madhma, para, pasanti).

Both Katha and Naam simran are parvan in Gurmat. As long one mindset does not start doing khandan-mandan of other mindset. The only issue is we made this difference attached to jatha maryada or samparda maryada and we started doing khandan mandan. I think thats where the problem lies. This has more to do with that personal human level where different sikhs at different stages according to the need listens to katha first or go straight to naam simran. One should not be restricted with jatha or samparda's boundaries but according to inner need...start whatever it works for you but whatever you do - don't turn into dogma which is condemned in guru sahib bani- sri akaal ustat - updesh to everyone including sikhs..!!

[Bijla Singh]

Bhai Sahib, I did not say that you call faults in Gurbani. I simply pointed out the fact that if Sikhs fail to take full advantage of naam simran then it is their fault. But the shabad under discussion rejects the jaap itself which means it cannot apply to Gurmantar. Let’s take a look at it again:

ਜਾਪ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਪੈ ਪਾਯਤ ਅਜਾਪ ਦੇਵ

This means that God cannot be obtained by doing jaap. How can a true Sikh claim that it applies to Gurmantar? It is ridiculous. Let’s assume that a person wants to become one with Waheguru. So what should he do? According to Gurbani, jaap of Gurmantar is fruitful but jaap of mantras of Vedas is fruitless. Jaap of Gurmantar requires one to keep full rehat and adhere to Gurmat principles. One can do jaap of vedas with a view of attaining salvation but he won’t be successful. On the other hand, the same person can do jaap of Gurmantar with same devotion and be successful.

So when you point out the fact that Sikhs have made Gurbani practice a business, it is their own fault which is why they are not getting the full results. On the other hand, practice of vedas is fruitless regardless of one’s devotion. If one does not want to attain salvation or union with Waheguru then he will never get it. If he wants some worldly things from Gurbani then that’s what he will get. But practice of vedas will get him nothing. This is what makes Gurbani recitation different because it is fruitful according to one’s wishes.

ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਦਾ ਜਾਪ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਜਰੂਰ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ ਪਰ ਜੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਭਾਵਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਤਾਂ । ਪਰ ਵੇਦ ਮੰਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਜਾਪ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਕਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲੇਗਾ ਭਾਂਵੇਂ ਜਿੰਨੀ ਮਰਜੀ ਭਾਵਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ ।

Therefore, Akal Ustat is not rejecting jaap of Gurmantar because it has the power of uniting with Waheguru. Jaap of Gurmantar starts off with mechanical repetition and eventually it becomes automatic. More of its practice elevates one spiritually but Vedic mantras do not have this power.

Those who keep bare minimum rehat do not see the results because they are not doing enough simran. Consider a pure white cloth stained with grease. If one uses a glass of water every day to clean it, it will take him many years to completely clean the cloth. But if one uses buckets of water, the results will come much quicker. This is the difference between some Sikhs doing the bare minimum and not seeing results and some constantly engaged in simran and become pooran Gursikhs. Doing 7 banis is the minimum and like using a glass of water. While it does do its part of cleaning the mind, it is not enough to wash off filth of countless births. Those who want only worldly things use up their kamayee and those who practice Gurbani every day but don’t keep rehat are accumulating filth at the same time. The key is to keep rehat and then do simran. It is most fruitful this way.

We both agree that Gurbani has its power and is always fruitful. It all depends on one’s mindset. Then how can the rejection of Akal Ustat apply to Gurmantar jaap. I agree it can be applied to Sikhs but not to the practice of Gurmantar jaap itself. Vedas have no power and keep people entangled in maya regardless of one’s wishes. This is why comparing Gurbani with Vedas is wrong and Gurbani rejection of mantar, tantar and jantar does not apply to Gurbani itself but to Vedas and Hindu rituals. Its application can be applied to Sikhs doing wrong things under the name of naam simran but naam simran itself can never be wrong. Hence, mechanically repeating Gurmantar while keeping all rehat is fully endorsed by Gurbani. I can post myriads of panktis if one requests. Guru Rakha

[N30S1NGH]

Bijla Singh Ji,

I am not sure why we have to show the beauty of gurbani by putting vedic mantars down. No Puratan samparda's including taksal does that(Sant hari singh ji Randhawale even said in naam jaap video -any mantar could be used to go through stages- baikhari, madhma, para and pasanti bani stage) ..we do go quite low to show gurbani superiority quite frankly singh it makes us look like protestant/anglican not to mention insecure, paranoia and cheap. Gurbani is paras kala agam agad bodh it does not need to put down vedic mantars down to show its superiority. I would expect such attitude from teja singh bhasuaria who tried to remove all sargun references from gurbani so much so much he start branding everything in divinity as its own by modifying vahiguroo mantar to make it look more nirgun and he called all the other mantars in gurbani such as bij mantar- Ongkar as bhraminvaad.

I guess he didn't know sidhant of jaap sahib where maharaj clearly has written nirgun cannot be confined in special mantars/tantars. In nirgun there is no roula of my gurmat mantars is higher than yours..there is only gyan but nothing else as consciouness pointed out nirgun is away from shabad. Shabad is part of subtle element in the universe, shabad cease to exist only thing remains is gyan of nirgun. I think thats where we left off the other sargun and nirgun discussion.

I think if it was up to teja singh bhausaria he would have branded panj tats elements of universe as gurmat air, gurmat water, gurmat fire, gurmat earth, gurmat ether in insecurity and paranoia.

The above tuk from sri akaal ustat even whole pauri for that matter is not targetting vedic mantars or any mantars for that matter but its targetting individual perception of such such mantar being "khas'- wrapping their head around it by doing robotic naam simran without any emotions. Please see attachment for translations done by pandit narian singh ji only teekakar so far of sri dasam guru granth. It fits perfectly for sikhs of today's time as kirpan fits perfectly in miyan.

Lot of sikhs will do khandan of gurbani itself ..will go against gurbani by going against other guru ghars mantars- such as ongkar- bij mantar, satnaam- paraporbla mantar,mala mantra, maha mantar- ik ongkar, mool mantar, mala mantar- japji sahib, gayatri mantar-baba deep singh did 125,000 japs of it and call those who did jaap of them (with sharda and prem) as kachai pilae, dhillaie, manmatiya,bhraminvad, devoid of gurmat etc etc.

It's not even worth discussing vedic mantars such aum, ram in this discussion because lot don't even have faith in guru ghar mantars themselves to begin with and claims mantars within gurbani such as ongkar-bijmantar, satnaam-parpoorbla, ikongkar-maha mantar, ikongkar satigurparsad-maha vak, mool mantar as bhraminvaad and reject those who did 125,000 jap of mool mantar such as taksali mahapursh to activate ajapa jap.

[Bijla Singh]

Bhai Sahib, I have already explained the reasons why Gurbani is superior to Vedas but you have not provided any reasons for equating them. I have read Pandit Ji’s teeka but he does not explain the context. So you decided to take the literal interpretation and apply it to Gurmantar but as I have already proven, Gurbani advocates meditation upon Gurmantar so your interpretation is not correct. Vedas do not preach monotheistic concept of God so how can one obtain God by reciting such mantras that invoke demi gods and goddesses? It is not possible. Bhai Sahib, you still have not studied Gurbani meanings independently. Why? Why do you keep relying on whatever a certain preacher says without scrutinizing it? Gurbani is very clear that only Gurmantar must be meditated upon. All mantars are not equal. This does not mean all other mantars (kirtam names) are bad or fruitless but Gurbani gives no option or choice to anyone to pick any mantar for meditation. At the time of Amrit, Gurmantar is given and all rehatnamas support Gurmantar only. Perhaps you can ask Baba Hari Singh for his reasons but without any Gurbani support, it is not possible to validate his statement. Daas has written a detailed article on Gurmantar and this subject is discussed also. Hopefully, it will be published on internet soon. In the meantime, please provide any quotes from Gurbani that prove that any mantar can be chosen for Gurmantar and in that case also explain the dichotomy of why Gurmantar is advocated at the same time. In my defense, following proofs are enough.

Describing superiority of Vaheguru, Bhai Veer Singh states:

Vaheguru is the most superior name and takes one to the original state uniting with God that is ineffable. Being capable to taking one to the Mansion of the Lord, the true Primal Name is Vaheguru. (Bhai Veer Singh, Amar Lekh. p. 29)

Kavi Santokh Singh in his monumental work GurPartap Sooraj Parkash writes:

ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਮੰਤ੍ਰਨਿ ਸਿਰਮੌਰ। ਜਿਸ ਕੇ ਸਮ ਜਗ ਮਹਿਂ ਨਹਿਂ ਔਰ ॥4॥ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਇਹੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਮਹਾਨਾ। ਚਤੁਰ ਵਰਨ ਕੋ ਜੋੜਨਿ ਠਾਨਾ।

Satnam mantar (Word) is superior to all mantras and none other is equal to it. Vaheguru mantar is great and unites the entire humanity. (Kavi Santokh Singh, GurPartap Sooraj Parkash. Rut 3, Ansu 35, p. 326)

ਧ੍ਰਿਗ ਜਿਹਬਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਵਿਣੁ ਹੋਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮਰਣੀ॥

Fie on that tongue, which remembers mantras other than the Guru-mantra. (Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 27, Pauri 10).

Bhai Prehlaad Singh in his Rehatnama states:

ਥਾਪ ਚਲਯੋ ਜੋ ਜਗਤ ਮੇ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਵਹੁ ਮਾਥ ॥ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਨ, ਮਿਥਿਆ ਸਾਰੀ ਗਾਥ ॥

[N30S1NGH]

Bhai Sahib, I have already explained the reasons why Gurbani is superior to Vedas but you have not provided any reasons for equating them. Vedas do not preach monotheistic concept of God so how can one obtain God by reciting such mantras that invoke demi gods and goddesses?

Singh Sahib Ji,

Gurbani is superior to vedas. I am not equauting them. I am aware 70% stuff in vedas has crappy karam kaands which are rejected in Gurmat. But with that being said, at the end vedas still has gyan of nirgun as well. Gurmat all though being distinct agrees with gyan of nirgun in vedas as its compatible with Gurmat. Gurmat does not reject good stuff (especially when it talks about gyan of nirgun) from other dharams, it acknowledges it instead of us rejecting everything in hopes of "winning some lame debate with rss"

Vedas does talk about monotheistic concept of god as there are vedic mantars which have nirgun gyan for eg- OM (A U M - jagrath, saupoan, sukhopat and turiya bindi in between), soham, aham bhram asmi, tat twam asi.

So now whats next? Brand jagrath, saupon, sukhopat and turiya as gurmat jagrath, gurmat suopoan, gurmat sukhopat and gurmat turiya???? Thats insanity really..how far we are going run way in insecurity and paranoia. No wonder we cannot take advantage of shraist mantra of all - Vahiguroo as we spent most of time branding stuff as our own like we are some marketing team try to sell Gurmat as if we selling hot cakes.!!

Gurbani is very clear that only Gurmantar must be meditated upon. All mantars are not equal. This does not mean all other mantars (kirtam names) are bad or fruitless but Gurbani gives no option or choice to anyone to pick any mantar for meditation. At the time of Amrit, Gurmantar is given and all rehatnamas support Gurmantar only. Gurmantar and this subject is discussed also. Hopefully, it will be published on internet soon. In the meantime, please provide any quotes from Gurbani that prove that any mantar can be chosen for Gurmantar and in that case also explain the dichotomy of why Gurmantar is advocated at the same time.

I agree gurmantar must be meditated upon and all mantars are not equal. But i disagree that in gurbani all the mantars besides gurmantar are kirtam names. According to my understanding, kirtam names are those who have one or two attributes and it does not have nirgun gyan. Whilst there are many kirtam names in gurbani the following mantras are popular ones from gurbani which have nirgun gyan therefore its not "bhraminvaad" whatever that means if Sikh meditates on mantras within Gurbani.

After students take amrit and receive initial gurmantar and mool mantar..its no secret puratan samparda's such bhai dya singh and bhai dharam singh ji mahapursh in form of panj pyare mukhi based on need and case by case basis would advise students to mediate on mantras below within gurbani after students have taken amrit why? Because each and every student avastha are different... each and every mantra with nirgun gyan intertwines with different perceptions of the individual- some students perception is towards more sargun /less in nirgun in nature, some student perception is more sargun and nirgun both and some student perception is more soley towards gyan saroop of nirgun, based on individual avastha and perception mantras were given. This naam vidhi/jugti/meditating on various guru ghar mantars is been going on since bhai dya singh ji time. Bhai Dya singh himself as a mukhi of panj pyares used to do atam updesh give naam vidhi- mantars/jugti etc to sangat based on each and every student avastha. Anyway here are list of mantars from Gurbani

Gurmantar- Vahiguro

Ongkar- Bij Mantra

IKongkar- Maha mantra

Mool Mantar- Ikongkar satnaam kartapurkh nirbhaui nirvair akaal morat ajoni saihbhang gurparsad || Sant mahapursh depending on state of an student for the most part ask students to do meditation on mool mantar from Ikgonkar to Nanank Hosbhi Sach.

Gyati matra- Gobindaie Mukhandaie udhari aparaie hariang kariang nirname akame

Para poorbla mantar- Satnam (I am aware satnaam generally is consider vishenan of gurmantar but not in all cases in Gurbani).

Ik Ongkar Satigurparsad - Maha vak Mantar

Ikongkar Sat (Truth) Gur (Supreme Consciouness) Parsad (Bliss).

Meditating on mantras above are only limited until ajap jap state or until dasam dwar state after that there is no jap nor there is shabad so we shouldn't be spending too much time discussing mantars but spending more time meditating on it (vahiguroo), mantar is carrier to take us to nirgun but not nirgun itself. Any mantar which has nirgun gyan its parvan in gurmat but shabad itself is not nirgun as shabad point us towards anubhav parkash of nirgun gyan as we discussed in the sargun and nirgun thread..!!

So at the end, there is no general must rule on either side nor it should be that one must not do jaap of any other nirgun oreinted in Gurbani or one must do only jaap of specific mantar thats it. We are talking about beant vahiguroo ji here, you want to put rules and regulations on vahiguroo ji here and confine vahiguroo ji in special mantar thats up to you singh but i rather not..!!..sorry singh my last post on this topic. I cannot afford to spend too much on internet..may vahiguroo ji should ground me for a day or two without internet to test..hehe