Balanced View of Hindu-Sikh Shaster Vidiya

[lsingh]

i dont know any Nihangs that make a point of mixing with radhaswamis. namdharis i dont know. give us some more info please.

Not sure if you class him as a Nihang , but this is from Niddars website. Getting Blessings from the Namdharis Guru , should Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh ji being doing this? Of course not when only the Guru Granth Sahib is to be followed.

Gurfateh

I and the whole of the Baba Darbara Singh Akhara offer our deepest condolences to our Namdhari brothers and sisters upon the passing of their Satgur Jagjit Singh. The passing of such a great Sikh holy man and human being who did so much good for humanity and Sikhi leaves the world all the poorer. I count it as a great honour that I was able to have the blessed sight of the holy one and get his blessing. May Satgur keep showering his blessings from Sach Khand upon all those who love him.

Nidar Singh

[chatanga]

Naa Ravan lost, go to the ramayan, ram sent hanuman to spy on sita to find out if she was okay and not being raped repeatedly after hanuman found she was fine and ravan wanted to marry her and then commit. Hanuman was caught confronted and his tail set on fire. He flew back and came back with an army taking down all of sri lanka killing most of it's people. Hanuman and his monkey army created a bridge from south india to sri lanka to take down ravan.

But this is a powerful science!

OK I see where you are coming from, the 1st time Hanuman went he did burn Lanka and return to Bhagwan Sri Ram Chander. But in the main battle to end this war, he was beaten in a duel by Ravan.

The hanuman technique is brilliant I can see niddar uses it too, all you have to do is hold any kinda weapon, talk about it's greatness have your student or hot assistant/volunteer demonstrate in random slow motion, stopping them and just moving yourself into position while talking and then saying your art exposes them and tell them why your art is superior. So if the hot volunteer has her hands up you move to the side while talking distracting your audience's attention and then pretend to attack her, while telling her to remain frozen so that she can't counter.

I'm starting my own akhara. Trust me, mine is going to be the best!

[DalbirSingh]

OK I see where you are coming from, the 1st time Hanuman went he did burn Lanka and return to Bhagwan Sri Ram Chander. But in the main battle to end this war, he was beaten in a duel by Ravan.

I'm starting my own akhara. Trust me, mine is going to be the best!

I was thinking of making another akhara aswell the daru -morga peti akhara it might sell more

[DalbirSingh]

check these martial arts out

[InderjitS]

Was the quote your referring to about Gatka compared to Shastar Vidiya this one below by Gurbachan Singh Bhindranewale ?? More Accurately it's actually refferiing to the differences between combat art forms and exhibition art forms. I dont have an issue with Garka if practioners just come out and tell the truth...it's an exhibition art for display purposes..or at a very low level giving young children familiarity with low level footwork. When you start doing circus act stuff like..chopping up melon blindfloded and spinning around cloth cartwhees and claiming they can stop arrows..it's just gets beyond embarrasing....Thats why nobody in the martial arts scene takes Gatka seriously.. The argument is nothing to do with Nidar Singh, as I said before..if you dont like him or his personal belief sets and ideoligies..fair enough..Stay away from his akharas.. But stop propogating the "fake" gatka myths it's not doing the panth any good..having people spinning sticks ariund, carrying blunt kirpans with no knowledge of their proper usage. All Sikhs should be encouraged to learn hand free and wepaons based combat art forms. There are plenty as mentioned Krav Maga, Silat, Panantukan, Eskrima, Krabi Krabong. Even straight boxing, kick boxing muay thai is good for striking skills and range awareness etc.. MMA my personal opinion is that it has limited effectiveness as a street defence art i've been to MMA classes and the focus is on competition in a rules driven environment, a lot of groun work and grappling. There are no rules in the streets your opponents or attackers wont observe rules. Also your not going to want to grapple and wrestle on the ground..avoid getting grounded at all costs.. Gurbani Paat Darpan, page 37-38.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

ਵਿਦਿੱਆ ਦੋ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ।

There are two forms of 'Vidiya' [science]

(੧) ਇਕ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ੳਹ ਦਿਖਾਵੇ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾਉਣਾ, ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ 'ਤੇ, ਛਾਤੀ, ਪੱਟ ਆਦਿਕ ਤੇ ਆਲੂ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਖਾ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਖੂਬੀ ਇਹੋ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਹੜੀ ਚੀਜ ਉਪਰ ਪਈ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਆਲੂ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਗਾਜਰ, ਜਾਂ ਮੂਲੀ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਰੋਮ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ੳਹ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਹੁਨਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰਕੇ, ਆਪ ਦਾ ਪੇਟ ਤੋਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

The first is called Pate Baaz [swinging a stick], that form is done for show, and to display their performance, placing potatos on someones face, chest, back etc and covering their eyes, that is their skills. Whatever is placed on top [of someone], whether it is potatos, carrots, or radish, they cut that without cutting that person. This form [of vidiya] is done to show their own performance and accomplishment in order to make the viewers happy and to fill their own belly's [acquiring money for it], this is the 'vidiya' [science/learning] of Pate Baaz [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

ਏਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪੰਡਤ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਸ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪ ੳਹ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਦਾਰਥ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਆਪ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ, ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ੳਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

[similar to this] form is a one who becomes a Pandit scholar who performs discourse as preaching to get people to praise him, yet he himself cannot enshrine [what he preaches], he gets them to praise them, and gets material wealth, but he himself cannot attain what he preaches, and still for people preaches sermons of wisdom. That type of vidiya [science/learning] is like that of the Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

(੨) ਦੂਸਰੀ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ, ਸੂਰਮਾ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੋ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਨ ਕੇ ਜੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

The second type of Vidiya [science/learning] is that of a warrior, a courageous warrior adorns weapons and goes to war, giving the enemies martyrdom and attaining victory, or getting martyrdom themselves.

ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । ਸੂਰਮਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਕੇਵਲ ਦਿਖਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਤਲੀ ਚੀਜ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਹੇਠਾਂ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਗਣ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਗਾ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਾਖਿਆਤ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

In this way the way of the warrior is like Brahm Vidiya. A warrior kills with his weapons, where as a Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj] merely only does a exhibition, they only break the top [item] and do not hit any limbs. A [real] warrior breaks all the limbs of ignorance and attains great bliss while living in the visible [sargun] form.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Cisco Singhi Ji,

I agree with what Sant Ji writes. Unfortunately with all this gyan, Nihangs were no where to be seen during struggles over the past 40-50 years. Jagdeep mentioned to me 1984 was not their (Nihangs) battle as they were not consulted by Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. Even if the Panth are willing to forgive this oversight what of the struggles prior to the attack? Where was the valour in 1978? Where were these soormey Sant Gurbachan Ji talks of in recent clashes with Ram Rahim and bandar sena when Jaspal Singh was killed? Did Guru Sahib turn ordinary folk into warriors so they could rest on their laurels or fight oppression? Now we have Singhs who are not trained warriors having to fight these battles and obviously this is not great but at least they are brave enough to take a stand. Nidar S always refers to the greatness of Shashtar Vidya and has numerous examples from history where it was used effectively. What use is that to us now?

I'm not completely against Nidar S as he does does talk some sense as does Parmjit S etal. However Jagdeep on his site crossed the line when criticising the real soormey of the Panth. If Nidar was truly a fearless jodha, he should be ready to sacrifice his life for the injustices being faced by all Sikhs in Punjab (ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ) ill be surprised if his relatives are treated any differently.

[chatanga]

OMG!! he taped a 6 pack plastic hoop thing to his shirt to imitate the olympics. Classic.

[DalbirSingh]

the ramayan summarised lets review hunu-man role

[lsingh]

Cisco Singhi Ji,

I agree with what Sant Ji writes. Unfortunately with all this gyan, Nihangs were no where to be seen during struggles over the past 40-50 years. Jagdeep mentioned to me 1984 was not their (Nihangs) battle as they were not consulted by Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. Even if the Panth are willing to forgive this oversight what of the struggles prior to the attack? Where was the valour in 1978? Where were these soormey Sant Gurbachan Ji talks of in recent clashes with Ram Rahim and bandar sena when Jaspal Singh was killed? Did Guru Sahib turn ordinary folk into warriors so they could rest on their laurels or fight oppression? Now we have Singhs who are not trained warriors having to fight these battles and obviously this is not great but at least they are brave enough to take a stand. Nidar S always refers to the greatness of Shashtar Vidya and has numerous examples from history where it was used effectively. What use is that to us now?

I'm not completely against Nidar S as he does does talk some sense as does Parmjit S etal. However Jagdeep on his site crossed the line when criticising the real soormey of the Panth. If Nidar was truly a fearless jodha, he should be ready to sacrifice his life for the injustices being faced by all Sikhs in Punjab (ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ) ill be surprised if his relatives are treated any differently.

Yes when will they defend the Sikhs and Gurdwaras. Can you imaging the Nihangs of old saying we will only defend the Akal Takht if we are personally asked. Just shows the grip of the Indian state over organisations.

[taran0]

Not sure if you class him as a Nihang , but this is from Niddars website. Getting Blessings from the Namdharis Guru , should Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh ji being doing this? Of course not when only the Guru Granth Sahib is to be followed.

Gurfateh

I and the whole of the Baba Darbara Singh Akhara offer our deepest condolences to our Namdhari brothers and sisters upon the passing of their Satgur Jagjit Singh. The passing of such a great Sikh holy man and human being who did so much good for humanity and Sikhi leaves the world all the poorer. I count it as a great honour that I was able to have the blessed sight of the holy one and get his blessing. May Satgur keep showering his blessings from Sach Khand upon all those who love him.

Nidar Singh

The nihangs dont mind the namdharis and i have been to a few nihang weddings where namdharis will do kirtan, but never will the Nihangs bow or call the namdhari leader SATGURU - that would be a besti of your own Guru as one cannot have two fathers -

they do like the way they do lots of simran and read a lot of dasam bani and do raag kirtan

the Nihangs pretty much have a habit of not recognising any authority other then their own, the Khalsa to them is sovereign above all - The Nihangs see the Namdharis as deluded and heavily take the mick out of them for not accepting guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Guru.

Ajit "phoola" the corrupt so called "nihang" - was the only one who visited bhaini and kept close congressi ties with the namdharis - but even he would call their Guru - baba or jagta

Ask any Nihang Singh and they would never refer to jagjit namdhari as Satguru - well no Singh in their rightful mind would accept someone who contests the authority of their own Guru

Nidars words don't surprise me, because Nidar IS NOT A NIHANG.

[Singh559]

The nihangs dont mind the namdharis and i have been to a few nihang weddings where namdharis will do kirtan, but never will the Nihangs bow or call the namdhari leader SATGURU - that would be a besti of your own Guru as one cannot have two fathers -

they do like the way they do lots of simran and read a lot of dasam bani and do raag kirtan

the Nihangs pretty much have a habit of not recognising any authority other then their own, the Khalsa to them is sovereign above all - The Nihangs see the Namdharis as deluded and heavily take the mick out of them for not accepting guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Guru.

Ajit "phoola" the corrupt so called "nihang" - was the only one who visited bhaini and kept close congressi ties with the namdharis - but even he would call their Guru - baba or jagta

Ask any Nihang Singh and they would never refer to jagjit namdhari as Satguru - well no Singh in their rightful mind would accept someone who contests the authority of their own Guru

Nidars words don't surprise me, because Nidar IS NOT A NIHANG.

True that, even most Sikhs respect naamdhari's abilities in Raag Kirtan. I will never respect the cult though, nor will any real Nihangs.