Balanced View of Hindu-Sikh Shaster Vidiya

[Cisco_Singh]

You could also afgue Gatka Akharas..run by various jathebandis also use the pretence of Gatka to bring students into their particular "version" of Sikhi...Theyre not doing anything different to NNS in that respect the only difrerence is that gatka akharas hold mainstream views in line with the accepted belief set today so nobody is bothered.

In one aspect..you must say that anyone who attends NNS's classes and comes out brainwashed must be pretty thick and weak in their own beliefs in the first place. I've never been to any class by any teacher on any subject..where I've come out and thought.. yeah..lets smoke a koint must be OK because the teacher said it is...Thats just laughable..

NNS for all his faults, has highlighted the complete lack of martial knowledge amongst the panth..he has rightly questioned and exposed the "pakhandi Gatka dancers" . If nothing else the wider martial arts world are actually sitting up and paying attention now. If there are other Ranjit Akjaras in India teaching proper Shastar Viidiya in India..it's great news..get these guys to publish details and videos of their classes and lessons, on youtube. Get all the pubnjabi Sikhs into training it's only going to be beneficial.

[taran0]

The difference between other jathebandees gatka akharas and nidar are that they aren't claiming to be the last living Sikh warrior, and insult the beliefs and sentiments of 99percent of the sikh sangat and act like a complete jackass and produce little annoying teenagers with delusions of being vikings in their spare time, who turn up at our camps thinking they are ranjey and telling the other kids they don't know nothing.

and the other jathebandee akharas do not insult people who died fighting for what they believed in.

Cisco_Singh, on 01 Aug 2013 - 22:09, said:

NNS for all his faults, has highlighted the complete lack of martial knowledge amongst the panth..he has rightly questioned and exposed the "pakhandi Gatka dancers" . If nothing else the wider martial arts world are actually sitting up and paying attention now. If there are other Ranjit Akjaras in India teaching proper Shastar Viidiya in India..it's great news..get these guys to publish details and videos of their classes and lessons, on youtube. Get all the pubnjabi Sikhs into training it's only going to be beneficial.

i'm sorry cisco but you must be living in some kind of fantasy land,

and theres loads of us in the panth ready to FIGHT ! don't right us off because we don't know a certain style of kung fu?

How many youngsters are training in the Lions MMA initiative which is already much bigger in 2 years then what nidar has produced in the past 12 years, they teach kids good fighting skills , and they teach them sikhi and respect as well, and these kids actually go out to competitions and fight other competitors and win belts. They have the support of all gurdwaras and are actually struggling to keep up with the demand of gurdwaras asking them to setup classes.

all i hear is loads of talk from nidars crew - they are just as martially inactive as anyone else, actually they become unable to fight for any cause

the reality is that those who have the anakh to fight will fight - and those that like to talk and fantasise about it will carry on doing so thinking themselves to be warriors.

there are no sureties in a fight, a wise person understands - its anyones game, no one is invincible and if you think that just because you train with nidar it gives you an edge over an mma or silat jkd kali or just a plain badmash who loves to fight.

wake up bruv ! because one day you will come up in a real fight and there will be no shastarvidiya or nihang fauj and no daddoo pentra to save you.

there is no proof of nidars superiority, even in the teji match we could be generous and give him a draw( and thats being generous ), but he didn't exactly dominate it and teji is a lot smaller then him, and nidar was in his prime then and apparently he had all that vidya back then? or did he?

i'm an archer, i ain't that fast, i could shoot a person twice from 35 yards before they got to me(average 6-7 seconds) or i could wait till their really close and hit them hard, it wouldn't matter how good their hand to hand combat is because they are already injured dying and bleeding to death, i would have an advantage

in a battle a group of archers could decimate infantry from 150+ yards, without even engaging in hand to hand combat, if we had horse archers we could ride up shoot your soldiers and then retreat back to safety, before you even had a chance to say "jai mata di" ,

so does that make archers a better warrior ?

your talking about something that is not quantifiable and doesn't make sense in the broader subject of warfare. are you talking about one on one hand to hand combat (like mma competition) or talking about large armies and strategy, archery, gunpowder cannons. because then your shastarvidiya is useless without strategy and intellect - and also your army is useless if you are on your own as you lack diplomacy skills (just like nidar is alone now with no jathebandee, not even the nihangs defending him)

BY which measure do you see yourselves better then any gatka akhara out there?

What do you base your delusions of superiority on?

its just your own deluded opinion, isn't it !

The gatka akharas i have seen in india and UK are good fighters and in a fight would most likely give you a good run for your money just like Teji did.

you should never underestimate your opponent, the biggest mistake you can make.

i could ASK WHATS THE POINT? punjab needs doctors, physicians, social workers, education, the real warriors are the people who help their communities not diss them and put them down.

[satbachan96]

look, le5s be honest and straight...most amritdharis are weak to put it politely..i did not say sikhs as many monehwill stand up physicslly and up hold our name as lions as sikhs, amritdharis cannot...most modern amritdharis are in false flag of ego...when it comes down to it wehave moneh fighting... its embarrassing...either go back to pratan vidiiys..spuritual and physical or be like what british wanted us to be as they were scared of akali shakti....people on this forum are in intrigued with khalsa more than being khalsa....

people are ready to fight but cannot fight...

[lsingh]

look, le5s be honest and straight...most amritdharis are weak to put it politely..i did not say sikhs as many money will stand up physicslly and up hold our name as lions as sikhs, amritdharis cannot...most modern amritdharis are in false flag of ego...when it comes down to it wehave money fighting... its embarrassing...either go back to pratan vidiiys..spuritual and physical or be like what british wanted us to be as they were scared of akali shakti....people on this forum are in intrigued with khalsa more than being khalsa....

people are ready to fight but cannot fight...

When are the fake Nihangs going to show their Strength and all this martial arts strength? When ever the Sikhs have faced danger the fake Nihangs are no where to be seen. In the Punjab in the 80's , Nov 84 in Delhi, even now in the struggles. The whole point of the Nihangs was that they were to defend the Sikhs. After the British took over in 1849 and the many Nihangs were killed defending the SIKH STATE not India, the real Nihangs were dispersed. What grew up were groups that were allowed by the British to continue Deras but do not get involved again in the affairs of the state . This followed on with Indian rule and you have the Santa Singh case where he became Indiras servant . Can you imagine Akali Phoola Singh sided with Afghan forces?

As for the Fake Nihangs in the UK the issues is that they claim to be Guru Gobind Singh ji's decendants but try to push the Brahmin message on students, they train at Namdharis Gurdwaras who believe in living Gurus etc. This is insulting to Guru Gobind Singh ji and that's why people are raising points.

[taran0]

look, le5s be honest and straight...most amritdharis are weak to put it politely..i did not say sikhs as many money will stand up physicslly and up hold our name as lions as sikhs, amritdharis cannot...most modern amritdharis are in false flag of ego...when it comes down to it wehave money fighting... its embarrassing...either go back to pratan vidiiys..spuritual and physical or be like what british wanted us to be as they were scared of akali shakti....people on this forum are in intrigued with khalsa more than being khalsa....

people are ready to fight but cannot fight...

That's a very depressing, negative, defeatist view.... and who is it you are saying they should be fighting? and on what do you base your opinions.

just like isingh said - i could say the same about nidars crew, when have they ever stepped up and helped the sikh sangat? never

when has he even spoke up against the incarceration of the nihang jathedar baba surjeet singh, and he calls himself a nihang? never

when has nidar even mentioned it? never, he couldnt care less as long as he gets paid

what human rights issues, for which cause and what fight is nidar fighting exactly??

so mate, nidars crew are useless, you cannot save a generation by just fighting, we need gursikhs with mutliple skills and we don't need a one skill person to come in and criticise everyone

and the amritdharis - there are people who do seva, make, langar, do camps, teach younger people about the gurus, help others in need, give dasvandh, campaign against human rights abuses, collect for charities, do kirtan programs, akhand paaths, work for a living, take care of their kids and live sikhi, inspire others to walk on the Gurus path.

I look at the sangat I see a lot of good people - who have strong hearts and minds and who don't give up just because they are looking at others and in their ego thinking everyone's an <banned word filter activated>

a sangat who has been fighting for generations and who will when the time arises produce soormey who will fight for their dharam

and as for fighting there are people out there who fight when the need arises and you know what nidar's crew have NEVER STEPPED UP ! that is a fact

nidar and his crewe are no better then anyone else - the only difference is they go around thinking they are warriors, and all other sikhs are just plebs...

The Nihangs are a relic of the past, now just a costume re-enactment show, they have all sold out their jathedar, and they sold out the panth in 1984 apart from a few

The true Nihang the true fighters were people like Sant Jarnail Singh ji and Bhai Fauja Singh ji and Nidar seeks to dash their name in the dirt, which is like stabbing us in the back.

when he can show even an ounce of anakh that those singhs showed then he's got a right to speak about warriors and claim to be the last one - and that's the biggest joke

Nidar wont even answer my legitimate questions, why is he so afraid - we have asked him to give us the conditions of his hadh torr challenge and we will show you how weak we amridharis are....

only in the age of kalyug would you get a coward who calls himself nidar - yet hides behind police and ctu at any sign of battle

if he's such a soorma where were your boys when he got kicked out of somerset road gurdwara - there were loads of amritdharis there that day

only thing nidar did was get one of his radha soami students to call the police and make a complaint that the gurdwara was being racist by kicking out Hindus - thats the bravery of Nidar

so don't come here lecturing us about weak

[chatanga]

You could also afgue Gatka Akharas..run by various jathebandis also use the pretence of Gatka to bring students into their particular "version" of Sikhi...Theyre not doing anything different to NNS in that respect

True, i remember a gakta teacher once telling his students they had to be vegetarians to learn this art.

The difference between other jathebandees gatka akharas and nidar are that they aren't claiming to be the last living Sikh warrior, and insult the beliefs and sentiments of 99percent of the sikh sangat and act like a complete jackass and produce little annoying teenagers with delusions of being vikings in their spare time, who turn up at our camps thinking they are ranjey and telling the other kids they don't know nothing.

i dont know about that bhaji, ive heard a few things from "educated" youngsters about how they know everything and others dont.

Maybe it would be better if parents were present at these kinds of classes to see exactly what their kids are being filled with.

[satbachan96]

first of all i aplogise for my earlier comment as it clearly upset somepeople...evidence of thst is private messages sent to me.... i stand by statement but could have been put more pappu style....

im not a student of nidar neither have i met him...we are taliking of shaster vidiya v gatka.....this is not about nidar vs gatka.. from my observation shaster vidiya as demonstrated by nidar seems more effective/detailed than the gatka i have seen and witnessed.... please correct me from those who are more wise but a comment about shaster vidiya v gatka was made from a very wise man i think it might have been giani inderjeet singh raqba.. im not sure...basically he said gatka is just a watered down version of shaster vidiya more from show performane than to kill...this is summary of what was quoted not quote itself...i have only mentioned this as most want a quote from a "higher authority"....

again i will say from my obseravation snd judgement shaster vidiya seems more much more effective than gatka...fateh

[satbachan96]

just to add. replying to taran..im not saying anything about gursikhs. yes there are many shant ras gursikhs who admit they are...their seva is, well what can i say.. we are talking about shaster vidiya/gatka expression of bir ras...

and comment made about sant baba santa singh is inappropriate...this is not a discusiion of 84... but about shastervidiya v gatka..... not taksal v nihang, not nidar v gatka etc....

[Cisco_Singh]

first of all i aplogise for my earlier comment as it clearly upset somepeople...evidence of thst is private messages sent to me.... i stand by statement but could have been put more pappu style....

im not a student of nidar neither have i met him...we are taliking of shaster vidiya v gatka.....this is not about nidar vs gatka.. from my observation shaster vidiya as demonstrated by nidar seems more effective/detailed than the gatka i have seen and witnessed.... please correct me from those who are more wise but a comment about shaster vidiya v gatka was made from a very wise man i think it might have been giani inderjeet singh raqba.. im not sure...basically he said gatka is just a watered down version of shaster vidiya more from show performane than to kill...this is summary of what was quoted not quote itself...i have only mentioned this as most want a quote from a "higher authority"....

again i will say from my obseravation snd judgement shaster vidiya seems more much more effective than gatka...fateh

Was the quote your referring to about Gatka compared to Shastar Vidiya this one below by Gurbachan Singh Bhindranewale ?? More Accurately it's actually refferiing to the differences between combat art forms and exhibition art forms. I dont have an issue with Garka if practioners just come out and tell the truth...it's an exhibition art for display purposes..or at a very low level giving young children familiarity with low level footwork. When you start doing circus act stuff like..chopping up melon blindfloded and spinning around cloth cartwhees and claiming they can stop arrows..it's just gets beyond embarrasing....Thats why nobody in the martial arts scene takes Gatka seriously..

The argument is nothing to do with Nidar Singh, as I said before..if you dont like him or his personal belief sets and ideoligies..fair enough..Stay away from his akharas.. But stop propogating the "fake" gatka myths it's not doing the panth any good..having people spinning sticks ariund, carrying blunt kirpans with no knowledge of their proper usage. All Sikhs should be encouraged to learn hand free and wepaons based combat art forms.

There are plenty as mentioned Krav Maga, Silat, Panantukan, Eskrima, Krabi Krabong. Even straight boxing, kick boxing muay thai is good for striking skills and range awareness etc.. MMA my personal opinion is that it has limited effectiveness as a street defence art i've been to MMA classes and the focus is on competition in a rules driven environment, a lot of groun work and grappling. There are no rules in the streets your opponents or attackers wont observe rules. Also your not going to want to grapple and wrestle on the ground..avoid getting grounded at all costs..

Gurbani Paat Darpan, page 37-38.

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ਵਿਦਿੱਆ ਦੋ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ ।

There are two forms of 'Vidiya' [science]

(੧) ਇਕ ਤਾਂ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ੳਹ ਦਿਖਾਵੇ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਪੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾਉਣਾ, ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਮੂੰਹ 'ਤੇ, ਛਾਤੀ, ਪੱਟ ਆਦਿਕ ਤੇ ਆਲੂ ਰੱਖ ਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਅੱਖਾ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਬੰਨ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਖੂਬੀ ਇਹੋ ਹੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਹੜੀ ਚੀਜ ਉਪਰ ਪਈ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਆਲੂ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਗਾਜਰ, ਜਾਂ ਮੂਲੀ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੱਟ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਰੋਮ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ੳਹ ਕਰਤੱਬ ਦਿਖਾ ਕੇ ਹੁਨਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰਕੇ, ਆਪ ਦਾ ਪੇਟ ਤੋਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

The first is called Pate Baaz [swinging a stick], that form is done for show, and to display their performance, placing potatos on someones face, chest, back etc and covering their eyes, that is their skills. Whatever is placed on top [of someone], whether it is potatos, carrots, or radish, they cut that without cutting that person. This form [of vidiya] is done to show their own performance and accomplishment in order to make the viewers happy and to fill their own belly's [acquiring money for it], this is the 'vidiya' [science/learning] of Pate Baaz [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

ਏਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪੰਡਤ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾ ਕੇ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਸ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਪ ੳਹ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ, ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਦਾਰਥ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਆਪ ਧਾਰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ, ਲੋਕਾਂ ਵਾਸਤੇ ੳਹ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾ ਸੁਣਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ । ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ ।

[similar to this] form is a one who becomes a Pandit scholar who performs discourse as preaching to get people to praise him, yet he himself cannot enshrine [what he preaches], he gets them to praise them, and gets material wealth, but he himself cannot attain what he preaches, and still for people preaches sermons of wisdom. That type of vidiya [science/learning] is like that of the Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj].

(੨) ਦੂਸਰੀ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ, ਸੂਰਮਾ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਜੋ ਹੈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਨ ਕੇ ਜੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਦੁਸ਼ਮਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਹੀਦ ਕਰਕੇ ਜਿੱਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਆਪ ਜੂਝ ਕੇ ਸ਼ਹੀਦੀ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

The second type of Vidiya [science/learning] is that of a warrior, a courageous warrior adorns weapons and goes to war, giving the enemies martyrdom and attaining victory, or getting martyrdom themselves.

ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ ਹੈ । ਸੂਰਮਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਪਟੇ ਬਾਜ ਕੇਵਲ ਦਿਖਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਤਲੀ ਚੀਜ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜਦਾ ਹੈ, ਹੇਠਾਂ ਅੰਗਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਗਣ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਗਾ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਦਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਾਖਿਆਤ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਉਂਦੇ ਹੈ ।

In this way the way of the warrior is like Brahm Vidiya. A warrior kills with his weapons, where as a Pate Baaj [one who just spins a stick, i.e. Gatka Baaj] merely only does a exhibition, they only break the top [item] and do not hit any limbs. A [real] warrior breaks all the limbs of ignorance and attains great bliss while living in the visible [sargun] form.

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[taran0]

the issue this thread is dealing with isn't about effectiveness, so don't try to swerve the debate

a gun is very effective ! a pint glass in the face is very effective, and a screwdriver is pretty dangerous !

the issue is... learning shastarvidiya from budha dal, adding in loads of other arts then passing it off as the original ancient vidya and stating you are the last 9nth generation master when there are 8th generation still alive and many of their students.

another issue is behaviour and arrogance among his students and the cult like characteristics of his school

also his inability to produce teachers, as he wants to be the last !

surely if he's been teaching for 15 or so years, his students have learnt something - therefore he isn't the last maybe "The second to last Sikh warrior"

and if he's got more then one shagird then will they have to fight over the title of who will be the last sikh warrior?

finally its his blatant disregard and mockery that he has made of Sikhi by preaching his snatan ideology which totally goes against the reform brought about by guru Gobind Singh ji and the Khalsa Teesar Panth.

And maybe I can agree the effectiveness of nidar is really good - his effectiveness to turn young Sikhs to alcohol drugs and loose morals far outweighs any good he is doing.

You lot may think he is effective but i think he's a coward as anyone can do demos

he should answer his OWN Had-Torh challenge and give us the parameters of the fight as we have challengers ready, then lets see how effective he really is ?

and on the recent redesign of his website the had torh challenge seems to have disappeared does this mean he has retracted this challenge?

its amazing how nidar cusses everyone, puts pictures of gursikhs calling them pakhandis, says the taksal has no lineage, disses our shaheed singhs, his students give us grief at our camps , challenges everyone to a duel

..... and I AM CALLED the trouble causer ?