Nirvkaalaap Saamadhi

[PAL 07]

For whatever "spiritual achievements" you want there are 1429 angs of Gurbani........... .

1430 ang

[N30S1NGH]

What a subtle attack(may not be deliberate but that's how we perceive it) on maharaj's bani. Thanks for catching it pal07

Tuhadas veer ji, i respect your personal belief (of whatever it might be), but let me remind you, you are on a secular panthic place (sikhsangat.com ) here so you may want to be considerate and courteous on other people's feelings and wider panthic (all panj takth) beleif which all five takths have - sri guru granth sahib ji saroop with 1430 angs.... but if you must keep making subtle attacks on maharaj's bani then you may want to consider and change your screen name as it does not reflect your posts..!!

[TuhadaDaas]

Tuhadaas veer ji,

Nirvakalp Samadhi is actually higher stage than listening to shabad naam with surti It's even higher than dasam dwar. Shabad cease to exist in higher realm but shabad which point towards nirgun gyan that stays in nirvakalp samadhi stage- thoughtless awareness stage:

Maharaj says from gurbani ang - 943

Antar sunan bar sunan taribhavan sunn masunnan.

The absolute Lord is deep within; the absolute Lord is outside us as well. The absolute Lord totally fills the three worlds.

Chauthe sunnai jo nar janai ta ko o pap na punan.

One who knows the Lord in the fourth state, is not subject to virtue or vice.

Now I understand there are some who are stuck in dasam dwar stage think thats final stage and wrap their head around physical version of sachkhand but that does not mean there is no stage further (chauta padd- thoughtless awareness state- turiya) or further stage/state does not exist.

The screenshot you are seeing above is from sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale dairy, its not only him but all his predecessors along with all samparda's mahapursh- taksal mahapursh, nirmale sampardai mahapursh etc align with gurbani beleive in nirvakalp samadhi being final stage of full union with nirankar- sachkhand. People who are devoid of gurmat or hybrid nirgun sargun vaddis call nirvkalap smadhi/shuniya as empty/annihilation/nothingness but according to gurbani after dasam dvar is state of sunn in sunn mandal where one merges with nirgun paratma who is in its thoughtless awareness state..!!!!!!!!

You have made many assumptions on my vews and your reply contains many things irrelevent to my post.

All I have to say is, Sri Jap Ji Sahib contains the complete gurmat philosophy. What is the end, i.e. the peak of Sri Jap Ji Sahib and there fore Gurmat Philosophy? Answer: Sachkhand. And what do we learn about Vaheguroo from the pauri on Sachkhand? Answer:

1)Vaheguru resides in Sachkhand (sachkhand is vaheguru anyway)

2) Vaheguru CREATES, WATCHES, showers NADAR and ENJOYS watching, ie. ' kar kar vaekhai nadhar nihaal' and 'vaekhai vigasai kar veechaar'

Guru Sahib also says:

ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥ I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.

A gursikh's liberation is to LOVE VAHEGURU, this is through the charan kamal of vaheguru, i.e. naam. Any gursikh fully devoted to naam is liberated, the only difference between bhagats is how deep into that ocean which they have become one with they have dived.

Now remember, guru sahib tell us that about Vaheguru sahib How he Vigase from Sachkhand. those who are one with him expereince the same.My liberation is to be with my pati Vaheguru, I leave it to him with whatever he wants to do with me and that is every avastha for me. And this Vaheguru is not just some state of being, he is an ocean of love which he allows his liberated bhagats to enjoy constantly.

[Consciousness]

Normal Human being like us have three avasthas/states. Nirvakalap Smadh is enlighten state/thoughtless "Awareness" state and also called maha smadhi state where there is no coming back:

What do you mean by thoughtless? And when you say awareness; is there really a 'you' that can be aware? Maha samadhi is also known as death but can there really be a 'no coming back' in terms of sargun not appearing and if so does a bramgiani lose the appearance of sargun forever in maha samadhi?

Between each thought there is a gap and then another thought arises so if you become aware of this gap are you realised? Or do you mean something else? Please elaborate bhai sahib.

You have made many assumptions on my vews and your reply contains many things irrelevent to my post.

All I have to say is, Sri Jap Ji Sahib contains the complete gurmat philosophy. What is the end, i.e. the peak of Sri Jap Ji Sahib and there fore Gurmat Philosophy? Answer: Sachkhand. And what do we learn about Vaheguroo from the pauri on Sachkhand? Answer:

1)Vaheguru resides in Sachkhand (sachkhand is vaheguru anyway)

2) Vaheguru CREATES, WATCHES, showers NADAR and ENJOYS watching, ie. ' kar kar vaekhai nadhar nihaal' and 'vaekhai vigasai kar veechaar'

Guru Sahib also says:

ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥ I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.

A gursikh's liberation is to LOVE VAHEGURU, this is through the charan kamal of vaheguru, i.e. naam. Any gursikh fully devoted to naam is liberated, the only difference between bhagats is how deep into that ocean which they have become one with they have dived.

Now remember, guru sahib tell us that about Vaheguru sahib How he Vigase from Sachkhand. those who are one with him expereince the same.My liberation is to be with my pati Vaheguru, I leave it to him with whatever he wants to do with me and that is every avastha for me. And this Vaheguru is not just some state of being, he is an ocean of love which he allows his liberated bhagats to enjoy constantly.

Veer jee please do not mock my guru ji there is 1430 angs. Even though you do not need to listen to me as I am a nobody coming to this forum... No offence intended - I am a lalaa gola! Your love is different then the love in Gurmat - does the lover remain to love waheguru or does 'he' disappear so only God remains? Gurmat veechar is very important to be void of this is anti gurmat. Guru sahib has intended his gursikhs to do gurshabad veechar - all the bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji did a lot of veechar as their bani clearly indicates.

Love to naam right; what do you define as naam?

[Consciousness]

Tuhadadaas veer ji,

Also you say our liberation is to love waheguru - Loving God is therefore sachkand. So how is sackhand like? If you LOVE God then you have attained Gurmat mukhti. Have you become deathless/ immortal/ pain free, sorrow free?

Some people say when you die then the gurmukh enters sackhand permanently what a mockery of his love! They are totally devoid of gurmat bhagti.

If you reply yes to the above questions then you know what gurmat Love is otherwise you do not know and gurshabad veechar is necessary.

Daas

Consciousness

[N30S1NGH]

Tuhadadas veer ji

You have made many assumptions on my vews and your reply contains many things irrelevent to my post.

I am sorry if i sounded or made assumptions.

All I have to say is, Sri Jap Ji Sahib contains the complete gurmat philosophy. What is the end, i.e. the peak of Sri Jap Ji Sahib and there fore Gurmat Philosophy? Answer: Sachkhand. And what do we learn about Vaheguroo from the pauri on Sachkhand? Answer:

1)Vaheguru resides in Sachkhand (sachkhand is vaheguru anyway)

2) Vaheguru CREATES, WATCHES, showers NADAR and ENJOYS watching, ie. ' kar kar vaekhai nadhar nihaal' and 'vaekhai vigasai kar veechaar'

I totally agree with you japji sahib gives you finest tat of Gurmat, especially in khand pauri:

Most famous samparda's mahapursh (sant teja singh mustaneywale double ma/ sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale/nirmale mahapursh/sant jvala singh harkhowale, sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale) beleives an sachkhand an both- physical realm i.e- begumpura/baikhunt for those perceive vahiguroo ji as sargun and subtle form of sargun - shabad naam dhun/dasam dwar/listening to paach shabad etc but ultimately consider sachkhand as avastha where there is no difference between sargun and nirgun when there is full exta of sargun and nirgun vahiguroo and when its only- advait (non dual - one vision) nirgun chaitain(supreme consciouness) bhram(vahiguroo).

Sant gyani gurbachan singh ji rightly so gives both sargun and nirgun interpertation of khands in japji sahib.

It's hard to explain and its quite deep but sachkhand cannot be confined into physical realm only just like vahiguroo ji cannot be confined into sargun.

When one gets gurparsad or kirpa based on individual perception, if an individual perception or avastha is still sargun base, they perceive sachkhand as physical realm and after they die they still go in sachkhand/baikhunt/begumpura (physical realm) do naam jaap until they get full bhramgyan/etka of sargun and nirgun but if individual perception or avastha is blessed with ekta of sargun and nirgun as - Oness advait (non dual) supreme consciouness bhram(Vahiguroo, when they leave their body in nirvkalap samadhi they go in nirgun form of sachkhand which is - EK ADVAIT (NON DUAL) SARABVYAPAK SUPREME CONSCIOUSNESSES..!!!!!!!!

I have spend countless days of vichar with bhai kulbir singh ji on this but at the end i regreted time indeed was time better spent doing naam jap during those days. People can read the vichar here.

http://www.tapoban.org/forum/read.php?1,4508

Guru sahib says:

I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.

A gursikh's liberation is to LOVE VAHEGURU, this is through the charan kamal of vaheguru, i.e. naam. Any gursikh fully devoted to naam is liberated, the only difference between bhagats is how deep into that ocean which they have become one with they have dived.

The above quote is talking about mukhte- four worldly type of salvation, ie- fourth -moksh type in char padarth or four sargun types of mukhti mentioned in sri guru granth sahib. Listen to sant gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale katha on this.

Gurmat, encourages only kaival mukhti, not only four sargun types.

Now remember, guru sahib tell us that about Vaheguru sahib How he Vigase from Sachkhand. those who are one with him expereince the same.My liberation is to be with my pati Vaheguru, I leave it to him with whatever he wants to do with me and that is every avastha for me. And this Vaheguru is not just some state of being, he is an ocean of love which he allows his liberated bhagats to enjoy constantly.

I have discussed this before with bhai kulbir singh ji in the thread below:

Those who have sargun perception of vahiguroo and see vahiguroo ji separate from their own individualistic self (having vajood), feel sargun form of sachkhand but those who are nirgun gyan upasakh have lost their individualistic self and merged with nirgun saroop of vahiguroo ji just like drop in water pot merges with water after pot breaks.

http://www.tapoban.org/forum/read.php?1,4508

[PAL 07]

two points that i believe on the basis of whatever (little) i understand of Sikhism:

Nirvikalap samadhi is the same as samadi anyway....Samadhi is somethign you can come out of ie, Baba Mohan Ji comes out of samadhi to give Guru Ji the Guru Bani pothis.

The proper going into self realization this is from where there is no going back, such a person obtains God....This state has many names from many schools of thought muslims have names for this, hindus call it adavitanand or sat chitanand .....gurbani names this jot swaroop or brahmgian........however from within the state is the same it just has many names.

IMHO sachkhand is the attainment of God ie self realization and not some sort of special home made of gold where God resides sitting on a throne and you go there and life happily everafter.....However what i have learnt is that sachkhand is attaining the atma state and then since you are liberated of all bondage you are a free spirit nothing more than a unit of light from the pure source of light (God)...what is God ??? God is a shakti it is a power that has this cosmos as a form swaroop of this shakti. Hence this light is free to travel or assume another form or merge with God whenever it wants.......If you learn of the life of Sant Sham Singh Ji Amritsar vale when they left there body infron of everybody there body self combusted and a light came out which did parkarma of Guru Granth Sahib and then rise into the sky and diappeared......Sant Ramana Maharishi were asked where will you go when you die and they said we will go nowhere because tehre is nowhere for me to go there is no place, the self has absorbed into the superself (God)

[TuhadaDaas]

Your love is different then the love in Gurmat

Please leave that to Guru Sahib to decide maharaj jeeo!

- does the lover remain to love waheguru or does 'he' disappear so only God remains?

There is a very good article here on liberation in Gurmat which covers your question, so I don't need to write any reply here. this is the link http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,24967,25005#msg-25005

I have also pasted the relevant part of the article here (by Bhai Kulbir Singh toronto)

"Gurmat

1 + 1 = 1.

The union of Vaheguru jee and the Jee is so complete that to the outer eye, they are 1:

ਅਬ ਤਉ ਜਾਇ ਚਢੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਹੈ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਨੀ ॥

ਰਾਮ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਏਕ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥6॥3॥

Bhagat Kabir jee is stating the fact that Raam and Kabira have become one, and no one can recognize the difference between the two. But the fact that Bhagat Kabir jee is stating this fact that he has become totally one with Vaheguru, proves that this union did not mean the annihilation of Bhagat Kabir jee. The union is very tight and they both become totally 1 but the "Self" of Bhagat Kabir jee is not eliminated or deleted in this process. This concept is further clarified by Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee, who states that prior to coming to this world, He was totally one with Vaheguru:

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵ ਰੂਪ ਤੇ ਇਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥

Siri Guru jee writing that He did so much Bhagti that they become 1 from 2 i.e. Vaheguru and Guru Sahib became one. Then in the next Saloks, after becoming one, Vaheguru orders Siri Guru jee to go to this world for the expansion of Dharma:

ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਕਰੀ ਅਲਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਾ ॥

ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਬ ਆਇਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਦੀਯਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਯਾ ॥ 4 ॥

ਚਿਤ ਨਾ ਭਯੋ ਹਮਰੋ ਆਵਨ ਕਹ ॥ ਚੁਭੀ ਰਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਮਹਿ ॥

ਜਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥ 5 ॥

In these Pankitis it is clear that Vaheguru ordered Guru Sahib (after they become totally one) to go to the world and even though, Guru Sahib jee did not want to come, still as per Hukam, He came and took Avtaar in Kaljug.

This proves that in Gurmat, totally union between the Jeev and Vaheguru does take place but the Jeev does not get annihilated in this process i.e. does not lose identity. All the Pankitis in Gurbani that talk about oneness with Vaheguru mean that the union is perfect but all the Pankitis that promise the Jeev that by following Gurmat, he would get everlasting bliss prove that the Jeev is not annihilated because in order to have everlasting bliss, one has to have consciousness. The consciousness of the Jeev is totally tuned in with Vaheguru and there is not difference in opinion or thought but the identity is not deleted. The Jeev merges in Vaheguru and enjoys everlasting life. When need be, the Jeev comes back as per the Pankiti - Gurmukh Aavai Jaae Nisung||"

Love to naam right; what do you define as naam?

What the panj pyare plant in hirda at the time of amrit sinchaar. Vaheguru himself.

Tuhadadaas veer ji,

Also you say our liberation is to love waheguru - Loving God is therefore sachkand. So how is sackhand like? If you LOVE God then you have attained Gurmat mukhti. Have you become deathless/ immortal/ pain free, sorrow free?

Please read my post again carefuly, which was based on "raaj na chaho..." pankti. I mean true love of Vaheguru through his charan kamal (naam) - i.e. ceaseless naam devotion where not a breath goes without naam, for me this is liberation, but like I said the only difference between bhagats is how far in they have gone. No doubt when there is ceaseless naam then one is deathless/immortal/pain free, sorrow free. This is not some easy thing to get.

Some people say when you die then the gurmukh enters sackhand permanently what a mockery of his love! They are totally devoid of gurmat bhagti.

A lack of understanding (as you percieve) of gurmat is not an indicator of anyone lacking gurmat bhagti. People can be wrong on topics but this does not mean we can say knowingly that they are "totally devoid of gurmat bhagti".

If you reply yes to the above questions then you know what gurmat Love is otherwise you do not know and gurshabad veechar is necessary.

Bhraava, I surely don't know what gurmat love is or I would have reached the objective of life. And I will never know gurmat love even if I do lakh vaar gurshabad 'veechar' if you mean analysing and studying by veechar. Only when he blesses me with his love will I know it, and that will be through naam.

Bhagat Ravidaas Ji says on ang 345

ਬੇਗਮ ਪੁਰਾ ਸਹਰ ਕੋ ਨਾਉ ॥

Baegam Puraa Sehar Ko Naao ||

Baygumpura, 'the city without sorrow', is the name of the town.

ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਦੋਹੁ ਨਹੀ ਤਿਹਿ ਠਾਉ ॥

Dhookh Andhohu Nehee Thihi Thaao ||

There is no suffering or anxiety there.

ਨਾਂ ਤਸਵੀਸ ਖਿਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਮਾਲੁ ॥

Naan Thasavees Khiraaj N Maal ||

There are no troubles or taxes on commodities there.

ਖਉਫੁ ਨ ਖਤਾ ਨ ਤਰਸੁ ਜਵਾਲੁ ॥੧॥

Khouf N Khathaa N Tharas Javaal ||1||

There is no fear, blemish or downfall there. ||1||

ਅਬ ਮੋਹਿ ਖੂਬ ਵਤਨ ਗਹ ਪਾਈ ॥

Ab Mohi Khoob Vathan Geh Paaee ||

Now, I have found this most excellent city.

ਊਹਾਂ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Oohaan Khair Sadhaa Maerae Bhaaee ||1|| Rehaao ||

There is lasting peace and safety there, O Siblings of Destiny. ||1||Pause||

ਕਾਇਮੁ ਦਾਇਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ॥

Kaaeim Dhaaeim Sadhaa Paathisaahee ||

God's Kingdom is steady, stable and eternal.

ਦੋਮ ਨ ਸੇਮ ਏਕ ਸੋ ਆਹੀ ॥

Dhom N Saem Eaek So Aahee ||

There is no second or third status; all are equal there.

ਆਬਾਦਾਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਸਹੂਰ ॥

Aabaadhaan Sadhaa Masehoor ||

That city is populous and eternally famous.

ਊਹਾਂ ਗਨੀ ਬਸਹਿ ਮਾਮੂਰ ॥੨॥

Oohaan Ganee Basehi Maamoor ||2||

Those who live there are wealthy and contented. ||2||

ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਸੈਲ ਕਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ॥

Thio Thio Sail Karehi Jio Bhaavai ||

They stroll about freely, just as they please.

ਮਹਰਮ ਮਹਲ ਨ ਕੋ ਅਟਕਾਵੈ ॥

Meharam Mehal N Ko Attakaavai ||

They know the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, and no one blocks their way.

ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਖਲਾਸ ਚਮਾਰਾ ॥

Kehi Ravidhaas Khalaas Chamaaraa ||

Says Ravi Daas, the emancipated shoe-maker:

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਸਹਰੀ ਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੩॥੨॥

Jo Ham Seharee S Meeth Hamaaraa ||3||2||

Whoever is a citizen there, is a friend of mine. ||3||2||

Please note, the avastha in that shabad is indeed of total oneness with Vaheguru! This concept is just beyond our understanding.

[TuhadaDaas]

Tuhadadas veer ji

I am sorry if i sounded or made assumptions.

I totally agree with you japji sahib gives you finest tat of Gurmat, especially in khand pauri:

Most famous samparda's mahapursh (sant teja singh mustaneywale double ma/ sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale/nirmale mahapursh/sant jvala singh harkhowale, sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale) beleives an sachkhand an both- physical realm i.e- begumpura/baikhunt for those perceive vahiguroo ji as sargun and subtle form of sargun - shabad naam dhun/dasam dwar/listening to paach shabad etc but ultimately consider sachkhand as avastha where there is no difference between sargun and nirgun when there is full exta of sargun and nirgun vahiguroo and when its only- advait (non dual - one vision) nirgun chaitain(supreme consciouness) bhram(vahiguroo).

Sant gyani gurbachan singh ji rightly so gives both sargun and nirgun interpertation of khands in japji sahib.

It's hard to explain and its quite deep but sachkhand cannot be confined into physical realm only just like vahiguroo ji cannot be confined into sargun.

When one gets gurparsad or kirpa based on individual perception, if an individual perception or avastha is still sargun base, they perceive sachkhand as physical realm and after they die they still go in sachkhand/baikhunt/begumpura (physical realm) do naam jaap until they get full bhramgyan/etka of sargun and nirgun but if individual perception or avastha is blessed with ekta of sargun and nirgun as - Oness advait (non dual) supreme consciouness bhram(Vahiguroo, when they leave their body in nirvkalap samadhi they go in nirgun form of sachkhand which is - EK ADVAIT (NON DUAL) SARABVYAPAK SUPREME CONSCIOUSNESSES..!!!!!!!!

I have spend countless days of vichar with bhai kulbir singh ji on this but at the end i regreted time indeed was time better spent doing naam jap during those days. People can read the vichar here.

http://www.tapoban.o...read.php?1,4508

The above quote is talking about mukhte- four worldly type of salvation, ie- fourth -moksh type in char padarth or four sargun types of mukhti mentioned in sri guru granth sahib. Listen to sant gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale katha on this.

Gurmat, encourages only kaival mukhti, not only four sargun types.

I have discussed this before with bhai kulbir singh ji in the thread below:

Those who have sargun perception of vahiguroo and see vahiguroo ji separate from their own individualistic self (having vajood), feel sargun form of sachkhand but those who are nirgun gyan upasakh have lost their individualistic self and merged with nirgun saroop of vahiguroo ji just like drop in water pot merges with water after pot breaks.

http://www.tapoban.o...read.php?1,4508

Bhai Kulbir Singh's latest article (given in my above post) I believe also answers this. Bhagats at final stage experience both things at once.

[PAL 07]

N30 with humility i disagree with some of the stuff you are writing and hence you are showing you academic knowledge but the lack of anubhav knowledge........let me answer this topic in a simple form....a huiman being is not the physical body ie skin hand etc.....this is merely a cloth. The human beings form is soul. This soul is a pure light with all the magnificence of nirgun vaheguru inside you, however because of the existence of mind the human being is in dillusion of ego... ego gives rise to all of mans problems lust anger desires enmity respect etc. When the human being destroys his mind the mind vanquishes it is completely obsolete and is replaced with the atma.when the human being grows old and dies people think oh he has died but infact it has no difference to him he is already soul form..Then this soul goes and merges with God

The true Guru i