Omnivore vs Herbavore

[luckysingh99]

Singh jee, it all depends what your Panj Pyaare told you about meat. Several Amrit Sanchaars meat is clearly forbidden and is counted as a bajjar kurehit (transgression, or cardinal vice).

My reference is to the official rehat maryada from SGPC.

Why doesn't everyone use this as the umbrella and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji for any backing up.

As to what the panj pyarey tell you at the time of initiation should be known in advance and within guidelines.

[Only five]

Well, since this thread is being allowed...I humbly offer the full shabad by Guru Nanak, from a non-veg perspective.

The problem is you are taking a non-veg perspective. You should not have a non-veg or a veg perspective, but understand the shabad for how Guru Sahib wrote it.

To speed up your understanding, look into this group:

eyqy rs Coif hovY sMinAwsI nwnku khY ivcwrw ]2] eaethae ras shhodd hovai sa(n)niaasee naanak kehai vichaaraa ||2|| Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

Read into the Sannyaasee (a life stage) Hindu. Then the shabad will become picture clear for you and you will see Satguru is not talking about eating meat is permittable.

Here is a quick way to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannyasa#Lifestyle_and_goals

Also listen to the katha of the Shabad by Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj.

Raag Malaar--Ang-1289 (Vaar)

Raag Malaar--Ang-1289 (Vaar)

[TheFancyBanana]

Well, since this thread is being allowed...I humbly offer the full shabad by Guru Nanak, from a non-veg perspective.

mÚ 1 ]

ma 1 ||

First Mehla:

maas maas kar moorakh jhagarrae giaan dhhiaan nehee jaanai ||

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

koun maas koun saag kehaavai kis mehi paap samaanae ||

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gai(n)addaa maar hom jag keeeae dhaevathiaa kee baanae ||

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

History: Hindus originally ate meat. Buddha advocated non-violence and vegetarianism. In an effort to absorb Buddhism, the Pandits adopted vegetarianism.

maas shhodd bais nak pakarrehi raathee maanas khaanae ||

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

People who renounce meat, still devour the flesh of another when they engage in nightly carnal pleasures.

farr kar lokaa(n) no dhikhalaavehi giaan dhhiaan nehee soojhai ||

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

naanak a(n)dhhae sio kiaa keheeai kehai n kehiaa boojhai ||

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

a(n)dhhaa soe j a(n)dhh kamaavai this ridhai s lochan naahee ||

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

maath pithaa kee rakath nipa(n)nae mashhee maas n khaa(n)hee ||

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

You are born from flesh, yet you forsake it.

eisathree purakhai jaa(n) nis maelaa outhhai ma(n)dhh kamaahee ||

But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.

Again, you devouring the flesh of another in carnal pleasure, but you do not eat meat.

maasahu ni(n)mae maasahu ja(n)mae ham maasai kae bhaa(n)ddae ||

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

giaan dhhiaan kashh soojhai naahee chathur kehaavai paa(n)ddae ||

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

baahar kaa maas ma(n)dhaa suaamee ghar kaa maas cha(n)gaeraa ||

O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

You say that eating meat is bad, but you devour the flesh of your spouse.

jeea ja(n)th sabh maasahu hoeae jeee laeiaa vaasaeraa ||

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.

All beings includes plants

abhakh bhakhehi bhakh thaj shhoddehi a(n)dhh guroo jin kaeraa ||

They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.

maasahu ni(n)mae maasahu ja(n)mae ham maasai kae bhaa(n)ddae ||

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

giaan dhhiaan kashh soojhai naahee chathur kehaavai paa(n)ddae ||

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

maas puraanee maas kathaeba(n)aee chahu jug maas kamaanaa ||

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

jaj kaaj veeaahi suhaavai outhhai maas samaanaa ||

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

eisathree purakh nipajehi maasahu paathisaah sulathaanaa(n) ||

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

We are all born from the flesh of our mothers

jae oue dhisehi narak jaa(n)dhae thaa(n) ounh kaa dhaan n lainaa ||

If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

Explained in the next line. If those who gave you the gift of this flesh body are to go to hell, then you should not have accepted their gift.

dhae(n)adhaa narak surag laidhae dhaekhahu eaehu dhhin(g)aanaa ||

The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

To give you this body of flesh, your parents had to engage in "sin". You may meditate and achieve salvation, but those who gave you life will have to suffer for their "sin". This doesn't seem fair.

aap n boojhai lok bujhaaeae paa(n)ddae kharaa siaanaa ||

You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

paa(n)ddae thoo jaanai hee naahee kithhahu maas oupa(n)naa ||

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

Guru ji will now explain the origins of meat

thoeiahu a(n)n kamaadh kapaahaa(n) thoeiahu thribhavan ga(n)naa ||

Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

thoaa aakhai ho bahu bidhh hashhaa thoai bahuth bikaaraa ||

Water says, ""I am good in many ways."" But water takes many forms.

Water takes many forms. This includes plants and meat. They originate from the same source.

eaethae ras shhodd hovai sa(n)niaasee naanak kehai vichaaraa ||2||

Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

With all that being said, Guru ji reminds us that we should not become attached to any kind of food.

The shabad that is quoted by all pro-meat lobbiests is a shabad by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the // of Raag Malhar on pages 1289-90. This shabad is sited by people as evidence that quarreling over meat is a fools game as it is not significant whether you eat it or not. But what these people fail to do is think deep into the shabad and to understand in what context the shabad was composed in.

Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhaghrrey.

Gian dhian Nahin Jaaney.

Kaun Maas Kaun Saag Kahaavey

Kis Mah Paap Samaaney. (pg. 1289-1290)

First Mehla:

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.

They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.

In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

Water says, ""I am good in many ways."" But water takes many forms.

Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

On Guru Nanak Dev Jis udassi (journey) Guru Ji met many different types of people, many who were stuck in their own rituals, many performing all manner of absolutions but without the divine knowledge. They were all stuck in meaningless ritual and falsehood. One of the groups Guru Sahib Ji met were Vaishnav's, a group who refrain from eating meat, and Guru Ji observed them and then met in discussion with them. Upon listening to their explanation as to why they refrain from eating meat and observing their treatment of those around them Guru Ji composed this shabad. This shabad is aimed at these Vaishnav Hindus who were so engrossed in their rituals and supposed superiority that they had missed the whole point of refraining from meat.

It should be noted that at no place does this shabad advocate the eating of meat.

Guru Sahib Ji says Vaishnavs who make their whole religion on the basis of rejection of maas/meat is foolsih, Jains who dispise meat are blind. They do not have the wisdom of the Guru so they do not know what to eat and what not to eat. Is some one cheats and steals and uses the money to purchase food then that food is like meat (poluted) even if they have purshased saag (spinich). Many sects eat inedible things like rotten grain but will not eat onions or ginger in the false notion that this is part of their faith but they have no spiritual knowledge as they have not met the true Satguru.

These pandits make a big show of their supriority by rejecting meat and hold their noses up at the mere site of cooked flesh YET they have no shame in looting the cheating the poor and unfortunate. The pandit has so much pride over his rejection of meat yet even in the Hindu faith there have been animal sacrifices, as are referenced in the Hindu scriptures not to mention the Semitic ones. Having such a hatred of meat that they are afraid to be near it or even touch it is foolish, this is what Guru Sahib Ji is getting at.

Now we ourselves are made of meat, inside us is meat just like the meat we see for sale in the markets. Our families are made of meat and so are all our acquaintances. The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it. The shabad is saying that it is all made of the same flesh that the pandit is so disgusted by , but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? If meat is so bad, then why do you associate with them? Why do the Pandits take money and make their living from Royalty? They too are made of meat. What is meat and flesh made of? It is not some dirty substance. It is made from grain and water that we eat. So why do you hate it so much? Only when you obtain wisdom from the true Guru and are able to overcome the lure of these physical ras/tastes will you be able to become a real Sanyasi.

The gist of this shabad is a condemnation of the pakhand/falsehood the Pandits convey when they see cooked meat and will run away from it turning their noses up in disgust yet they are quite at home when they swindle people out of their earnings, without the Satguru there is no knowledge. This is what the shabad is getting at, it is not saying that all those who argue over meat are foolish and it is okay to consume meat.

Nowhere in this shabad is there any indication that we should eat meat, just that we shouldn't hate it because we ourselves are made of meat and we shouldn't think that by giving it up we will somehow elevate oursleves . There is no indication in this shabad that says "meat eating is okay". In fact this shabad indicates to us that we are meat and we should recognize that just as the thought of eating a dead body is revolting, the thought of eating meat should be as well. Because that’s precisely what it is: a dead body, and the same stuff our body is made of.

[Mehtab Singh]

My reference is to the official rehat maryada from SGPC.

Why doesn't everyone use this as the umbrella and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji for any backing up.

As to what the panj pyarey tell you at the time of initiation should be known in advance and within guidelines.

Sir, please read more into the history of how this maryada was formulated. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Jee Khalsa Bhindranwale and Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee, the two main pillars of Sikhi during those times simply walked out of the conference taking place where the current SGPC maryada was to be implemented after realizing that meat was going to be made optional. There will have to be a separate thread on this. The current SGPC maryada made meat optional only in 1980 if I am not wrong? It was drafted only in 1920s, right? The maryada followed by these 2 Gurmukh pyaare is closer to Gurbani as compared to SGPC. Let me add that I don't completely disagree with it, however, the meat part as suggested by several GurSikhs over the years isn't really what Gurmat states. Urban Sikhs in modern times have used it to justify their non-vegetarianism. Also, an abhilakhi who goes to received Amrit does have a fair idea of what Rehit Maryada he/she will be blessed with, for the most part. Even if they don't know, whatever is told has to be accepted as Hukam. This is the reason why people who can't quit eating meat always make sure to go to an Amrit Sanchar where they know beforehand that meat won't be an issue and will be optional.

[Sewadar]

This topic has once again proven why meat topics are not allowed, and hence is being locked.