~ Seminar on Nirmale, Sevapanthis and Udasi Sikh Order/Samparda ~

[Singh559]

So instead of posting sources and real historical references you're insulting people by calling them <Edited> Sikhs (no idea what that is) and discrediting Sir Max Arthur Macauliffe by saying he can't tell us about Sikh orders? That sounds very close-minded and taliban like.

Was Sir Max Arthur Macauliffe also bhausauria mindset or was he just another ole' firangi who should have been dealt with? He actually worked with real Gianis at that time.

Wah@bi sounds like wassabi.

[Singh559]

I agree, I always love DalSingh101's posts. He's always balanced and never goes on any extreme unlike people who are bhasauria mindset and those who completely discredit Singh Sabha and justify the udasis who installed idols in Gurudwaras and promoted brothels around Harmandir Sahib.

edit- Similarly I've found Bijla Singh's posts are always balanced.

[N30S1NGH]

What sources do you want? We have earliest nirmale literature dating 1740 pandit gulab singh work, we have pyara singh padam work on sikh sampardavli which mentions history of udasi, sevapanthis, nirmale, we have the own singh sabha pioneer bhai kahn singh nabha mahan kosh talks about nirmale..what else do you want? I am sorry i don't have ferengi resources..i will leave that up to singh sabha guys to pick up..!!!!!!!!

[Singh559]

What sources do you want? We have earliest nirmale literature dating 1740 pandit gulab singh work, we have pyara singh padam work on sikh sampardavli which mentions history of udasi, sevapanthis, nirmale, we have the own singh sabha pioneer bhai kahn singh nabha mahan kosh talks about nirmale..what else do you want? I am sorry i don't have ferengi resources..i will leave that up to singh sabha guys to pick up..!!!!!!!!

That would be a start, any idea where I can read up on this from independent 3rd party sources and/or their actual work?

[N30S1NGH]

Well singh, after centuries demonization, de-moralization of nirmale and udasi and sevapanthis its quite insulting to see demonization, de-moralization to this day..!! I don't know how many times i have posted nirmale contributions to history here to set the record straight but people with bias will always have bias...this thread was simply to post the videos of seminars. There are plenty of proof available on their history and their lineage, but people want to hear what they want to hear..i cannot convince anyone. But i do hope, one day puratan samparda's do get well due respect back by mainstream..things are changing- it was amazing to see sri akaal takth jathedar gurbachan singh ji in the event so no one cultist/right wing nut bar/bhausaria panthi/protestant type can claim that it was anti-panthic..!!!

That would be a start, any idea where I can read up on this from independent 3rd party sources and/or their actual work?

what 3rd party source? like ferengis? 3rd party source? singh sabha not good enough for you?

[Singh559]

Well singh, after centuries demonization, de-moralization of nirmale and udasi and sevapanthis its quite insulting to see demonization, de-moralization to this day..!! I don't know how many times i have posted nirmale contributions to history here to set the record straight but people with bias will always have bias...this thread was simply to post the videos of seminars. There are plenty of proof available on their history and their lineage, but people want to hear what they want to hear..i cannot convince anyone. But i do hope, one day puratan samparda's do get well due respect back by mainstream..things are changing- it was amazing to see sri akaal takth jathedar gurbachan singh ji in the event so no one cultist/right wing nut bar/bhausaria panthi/protestant type can claim that it was anti-panthic..!!!

what 3rd party source? like ferengis? 3rd party source? singh sabha not good enough for you?

3rd party meaning something other than an udasi or nirmale website. Sir Max Arthur Macaullife point I made was to get at where was the Nirmale order when such manmant was so rampant in the Panth at the time?

I'm sure you know this already, but for the sake of respecting the position I won't post the pictures. What do you think about the edict of not associating with the RSS, chairs where Guru Granth Sahib Ji is parkash, beadbi by installing devi/devte and adding om to portraits of Guru Sahiban+Harmandir Sahib and taking them in open arms and placing them in front of SGGSJI?

[N30S1NGH]

3rd party meaning something other than an udasi or nirmale website. Sir Max Arthur Macaullife point I made was to get at where was the Nirmale order when such manmant was so rampant in the Panth at the time?

Thats what i just gave you - 3rd party source- SIKH SAMPARDAVALI by P Y A R A SINGH PADAM , MAHAN KOSH BY BHAI KAHN SINGH NABHA...!!!..authors not 3rd party for you?

[Singh559]

Thats what i just gave you - 3rd party source- SIKH SAMPARDAVALI by P Y A R A SINGH PADAM , MAHAN KOSH BY BHAI KAHN SINGH NABHA...!!!..authors not 3rd party for you?

Which is why I asked if you knew where I could find them

[N30S1NGH]

http://www.singhbrothers.com/private/db/auresult.asp?auth=PIARA%20SINGH%20PADAM

http://www.ik13.com/online_library.html

[Bijla Singh]

While there isn’t any controversy on Nirmala order being started by Guru Sahib, there is, however, contention on how it started and the purpose of this order. It is a popular story that five Sikhs were sent to learn Hindu texts from Benaras and upon their return they were exempt from taking Amrit and keep the attire they were wearing. There is hardly any shred of truth in this mythical story. All texts that mention the names of these Sikhs clearly state “Singh” as their last name. This proves that they were Amritdharis. Further, Guru Sahib himself was a great scholar and had scores of erudite scholars in his darbar to teach his Sikhs. There was no need to send anyone to Benaras to learn what couldn’t be taught in Guru’s Darbar. To state something otherwise implies that Guru’s House lacked knowledge. If Guru Harkrishan Ji could enable a deaf/dumb person to recite and interpret Geeta, then why couldn’t Guru Sahib and his learned scholars teach other Sikhs? There is a famous sakhi of a Guru’s ordinary Sikh composing a riddle in intricate poetry which a learned person could not solve. This sakhi proves that even ordinary Sikhs cleaning langar halls and horse stables were very learned and capable of beating learned haughty pandits in a scholarly debate. Many reasons can be put forth to prove that no Sikh was sent to any Hindu Brahmin to learn anything. The fact is that Nirmala order was started by Guru Sahib as a missionary order of the Khalsa. This is why their names have “Singh”. Had they been exempt, they wouldn’t have received “Singh” surname any other way. Their mission was to spread out to different parts of the country and establish their akharas at Hindu holy places where people gathered in large numbers and preach Gurmat by debating learned Brahmins, yogis and pandits. They could easily present Gurmat by comparing it to six Hindu systems and show its uniqueness. They were supposed to present Gurmat by relating it to Hinduism. Their work was successful in the beginning but eventually they fell in the trap of the very system they were supposed to defend Gurmat from. They started presenting Gurmat in Vedantic terms and some of their works are testimony to that fact.

After 1849 and even prior to it Sikhs had intermingled with the Hindus so much that it was very difficult to distinguish them. Their practices had become Hinduized. While many Sikhs came back to Gurmat due to Singh Sabha’s preaching, sampardas like Udasis and Nirmalas have been sticking to the old rustic influences of Hinduism to justify their wrongdoings and blame Singh Sabha to have misinterpreted Gurbani. It is an historical fact that Khalsa Panth was started by Guru Sahib and it made mistakes, yet it always revived itself but such has not been observed from sampardas who keep defending their mistakes using the mere excuse of their order being started by Guru Sahib and hence, fail to free themselves from the yoke of Hinduism and Vedanta. They were supposed to be the university of Gurmat scholarship yet they are far behind compared to modern standards. They fail to recognize the importance of Gurbani grammar. Unfortunately, they are not on the progressive path. Their contribution deserves due credit but their lapse into Hinduism is also a grave mistake. Sooner they realize this, the better. Just because the order was started by Guru Sahib does not prove that it has stayed the same throughout history and has been free from errors. This is perhaps one of the foremost reasons why they haven’t been given any importance after Singh Sabha period. They simply lost touch with the Sikh masses and refused to move on.

While sampardas complain about not getting due credit for their contribution, they are guilty of the same charges. How many samparda gyanis refer to Sajjan Thug, Bhoomiya thief and Kauda demon as Bhai Sajjan, Bhai Bhoomiya and Bhai Kauda respectively and their great contribution of Sikh parchaar? The life account of these Sikhs is completely unknown to the Sikh nation after they reformed. The point is that the mistakes and bad deeds go a long way and stick to the person’s name forever. No one thinks of Santa Singh’s apology as much as his treachery. This is probably how his name will be remembered in history. In my opinion, the only way for Nirmalas and sampardas to gain more respect and credit for their contribution is by reforming and modernizing themselves. They must keep up with the changing pace and present Gurmat by relating it to modern thought while keeping its purity and essence. They need to adopt new methods of study and let go off Hindu influences. Sikhs also need to be concerned about this order as it used to be the missionary wing of the Panth. I hope one day all sampardas and modern schools join hands and make progressive headway towards Gurmat parchaar. Guru Rakha