~ Seminar on Nirmale, Sevapanthis and Udasi Sikh Order/Samparda ~

[Singh559]

Thanks for that very informative post paaji!

Pure gold and 100% truth.

[Sherdil]

Nirmalas

- Why would Guru Gobind Singh ji send 5 Sikhs to benares to learn Sanskrit?

- Does this mean that Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't know Sanskrit himself, as he would have taught the 5 Sikhs?

- If Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't know Sanskrit, but was still a Brahmgyan Jivan Mukht Mahapurakh, then what's the use of Sanskrit?

Sewapanthis

- They sound cool, but they stay celibate and don't harm any form of life (almost like jains)

- Started by Bhai Khanaiya who didn't want to pick up the sword to fight the Mughals.

- They are pacifists, but Guru Gobind Singh ji has said, "When all peaceful means have failed, it is righteous to draw the sword".

- Guru Nanak told us to be householders.

Udasis

- The group started by Sri Chand, who was unfit to succeed Guru Nanak, so he started his own order.

- Sri Chand had too much ego to follow Guru Nanak's command to the T, so Guru Nanak picked Bhai Lehna (Guru Angad Dev ji) as his successor.

So these groups have all broken away from the Sikh panth at one point or another, yet they still call themselves Sikhs. However, a Sikh does not disobey his Guru. So how can they be considered Sikhs? They are sects of Sikhi at best.

[N30S1NGH]

While there isn’t any controversy on Nirmala order being started by Guru Sahib

Well atleast i m glad you agree that nirmale order being started by guru sahib. May be people can read this instead of harping around it and ruin an simple thread with youtube seminar videos in insecurity when their cham dristh/hyper sensitive eyes saw a singh with indic sadhu bhana/nirmal bhek..!!

there is however, contention on how it started and the purpose of this order. It is a popular story that five Sikhs were sent to learn Hindu texts from Benaras and upon their return they were exempt from taking Amrit and keep the attire they were wearing. There is hardly any shred of truth in this mythical story. All texts that mention the names of these Sikhs clearly state “Singh” as their last name. This proves that they were Amritdharis.

I am not sure where you getting the notions that they were not amritdharis or they didn't took amrit. In fact they are amritdharis, they did took amrit and they do take amrit and i m suprised you didn't know this....i thought sikh sampardavali by pyara singh padam mentions this, its very common and known fact that they do take amrit.

With that being said, panj kakari rehit varies..all of them are keshadhari but thats it..they were blessed with sadhu nirmal bhek (be it white/pagva) in order to blend in within sadhu culture in india and set up gurmat akhara for their missionary work. Their main focus or main purpose of this order is gurmat scholarship/study in theological/vikayaran/entomology shaaastarvidya not shastarvidya- akaali nihangs are orders for that - shastars. Name any great sikh parcharaiks- all have learn from nirmale- sant singh maskeen to great saints like- sant sunder singh bhindranwale.

Off course thats a general perception thats nirmale are strictly scholarship order, but there is no hard fast rule as they cross platform all time for example according to the needs for the panth for eg- baba sahib singh bedi baba bir singh nurangabad was nirmala sant khalsa bhramgyani yodha along with baba khuda singh ji, baba maharaj singh naurangabad...also look at early jathedars of damdami taksal all kept nirmal bhek- white but according to need - jathedars were shastardhari trained from misal etc ..!!!

You can read more about nirmale rehit from Sudharm Marg Granth

Further, Guru Sahib himself was a great scholar and had scores of erudite scholars in his darbar to teach his Sikhs. There was no need to send anyone to Benaras to learn what couldn’t be taught in Guru’s Darbar. To state something otherwise implies that Guru’s House lacked knowledge. If Guru Harkrishan Ji could enable a deaf/dumb person to recite and interpret Geeta, then why couldn’t Guru Sahib and his learned scholars teach other Sikhs? There is a famous sakhi of a Guru’s ordinary Sikh composing a riddle in intricate poetry which a learned person could not solve. This sakhi proves that even ordinary Sikhs cleaning langar halls and horse stables were very learned and capable of beating learned haughty pandits in a scholarly debate. Many reasons can be put forth to prove that no Sikh was sent to any Hindu Brahmin to learn anything. The fact is that Nirmala order was started by Guru Sahib as a missionary order of the Khalsa. This is why their names have “Singh”. Had they been exempt, they wouldn’t have received “Singh” surname any other way. Their mission was to spread out to different parts of the country and establish their akharas at Hindu holy places where people gathered in large numbers and preach Gurmat by debating learned Brahmins, yogis and pandits. They could easily present Gurmat by comparing it to six Hindu systems and show its uniqueness. They were supposed to present Gurmat by relating it to Hinduism. Their work was successful in the beginning but eventually they fell in the trap of the very system they were supposed to defend Gurmat from. They started presenting Gurmat in Vedantic terms and some of their works are testimony to that fact.

Each country have standard education/learning system. In india, banares is head quaters for the vidya of sanskrit, as khalistangunman pointed out:

Traditional indic philosophy, medicine, literature, spiritual sciences etc of which benares was the HQ...its the difference between just merely translating sanskrit to actually understaning it, also having access to huge quantities of traditional indic spiritual literature, ..the nirmale were created to ensure khalsa never had to rely on bhramins for access to indic scriptures.

After 1849 and even prior to it Sikhs had intermingled with the Hindus so much that it was very difficult to distinguish them. Their practices had become Hinduized. While many Sikhs came back to Gurmat due to Singh Sabha’s preaching, sampardas like Udasis and Nirmalas have been sticking to the old rustic influences of Hinduism to justify their wrongdoings and blame Singh Sabha to have misinterpreted Gurbani. It is an historical fact that Khalsa Panth was started by Guru Sahib and it made mistakes, yet it always revived itself but such has not been observed from sampardas who keep defending their mistakes using the mere excuse of their order being started by Guru Sahib and hence, fail to free themselves from the yoke of Hinduism and Vedanta. They were supposed to be the university of Gurmat scholarship yet they are far behind compared to modern standards. They fail to recognize the importance of Gurbani grammar. Unfortunately, they are not on the progressive path. Their contribution deserves due credit but their lapse into Hinduism is also a grave mistake. Sooner they realize this, the better. Just because the order was started by Guru Sahib does not prove that it has stayed the same throughout history and has been free from errors. This is perhaps one of the foremost reasons why they haven’t been given any importance after Singh Sabha period. They simply lost touch with the Sikh masses and refused to move on.

Utter bullocks..!! Singh sabha with exception of bhai vir singh ji have no antriv depth to offer to sikhi whatsoever. I came from catholic school from calcutta. When i read tat khalsa revionist take on Gurmat.. I see pure catholism/protestant version of sikhi superimposing itself on Gurmat with out any depth, thats how quickly i was able to relate to it. May be their one line sikhitothemax translations and black and white notions are the root cause of sikhs failing to understand sri dasam granth and rejecting it.

I repeat this again and i mentioned this before:

This point is well understood that gurbani is never contradictory, but the limited approach or method of interpreting gurbani only by vikayaran to ensure - Gurbani is never contradictory. That method itself is highly questionable should be put under scrutiny, after all we are dealing with dhur ki bani - infinite nirgun gyan saroop not kavita of some poet or some tool to fight rss only or some soccer match where its all about scoring goals by hook or crook...!!

We start off by discussing the basic frame work of both thoughts (modern day thoughts and traditional thought) to ensure gurbani is not contradictory.

Modern day approach- interpret gurbani only by using grammar, some people with modern day approach pick up their favorite shabad and use guru sahib position held in that shabad of subject (be it on vedas or avtars) and make that position held in that shabad as "primary" and go to extreme lengths to apply that position held all across the board by making position held in various shabad align them with the first (their favorite shabad) without taking into context of various shabad of same subject.

Gurmat traditional approach: To ensure gurbani is not contradictory it lays out three main frame work in interpretating gurbani- a) uthanka-historical context of shabad- sankalap(thought) behind guru sahib reciting an respective shabad b) bhav arth- provided outer layer of shabad where some level of vikayaran is used c) antriv arth- inner layer of shabad which could be interpretating both from sargun and nirgun aspect of Vahiguroo. Hence you will find multiple meanings of same shabad. This is no way to be seen as contradictory quite the opposite rather because gurbani connects to our human consciousness which all have different perceptions and sitting on different stages.

Agami Gurbani speaks to every human consciousness/perception at different avastha and different perception. Think about it logically- you have glass (half empty and half full). I perceive the glass rightly so half full (because thats the only thing i see), my fellow human being perceives the glass rightly so half empty (because thats the only thing he sees). These are two different perception of same glass...how could one claim one's perception is wrong regarding the glass and other is right or vice versa. both perceptions are correct but whats important is to see full view of glass to understand the glass instead of seing only half full or half empty.!! Gurbani regarding vedas topic along with other important topics shows full glass in its totality (half full and half empty- ) to readers to draw an conscultion from it. Those who provides interpretation of important subjects such as -gurbani relationship with avtars, vedant/vedas etc must provide readers full glass view in its totality rather than providing half glass or half empty.

Agami Gurbani speaks to every human consciousness at different stage or avastha. Hence rightly so, no sampardaie teekakar claim that their arths of gurbani are sampooran(complete). Claiming to have full interpretation of agami gurbani is like individual claiming that they have found end of nirgun chaitan bhram Vahiguroo..!!..All though bhramgyani interpretation of gurbani is pretty much gives you tat gyan of gurbani but they themselves don't claim- this is it as their own consciousness is experiencing Agami Gurbani in its own unique and diverse way as there are many endless aspects (eg-sargun nirgun) of Vahiguroo.!!

It's usually bhramgyani over zealous chelas who misses the big picture or plot and confine themselves to their mahapursh or bhramgyani interpretation of gurbani which is also somewhat an road block in one's spiritual growth, the real message of bhramgyani to an student is to focus on message or work towards your own spirituality to actually experience gurbani yourself rather than typically imitating the teacher. No bhramgyani or sampardaaie teekakar will claim, follow my teeka. They have made attempts to present agami gurbani in most profound manner - even sant gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale did 35 kathas of sri guru granth sahib all slightly different from each other but at the end, all work- teeka, interpretation etc along with themselves looses themselves in Agami Gurbani..thats the beauty of agami gurbani..!!

There is nothing wrong with using teekas to help us understand gurbani but the real profound experience of gurbani comes from nirgun paratma via one own's spiritual growth in stages...defining agami gurbani exactly in its pure original total form is like defining Nirgun all prevading Vahiguroo which our own guru sahiban didn't put any defining limit or end to it !!..

At the end, one must come to terms and all bhramgyanis naturally have that its not about defining gurbani so much so in teeka or steek form but rather loosing your self in agami Gurbani and becoming part of ~~ IK ONGKAR ~~..!!!!!!!!!

While sampardas complain about not getting due credit for their contribution, they are guilty of the same charges. How many samparda gyanis refer to Sajjan Thug, Bhoomiya thief and Kauda demon as Bhai Sajjan, Bhai Bhoomiya and Bhai Kauda respectively and their great contribution of Sikh parchaar? The life account of these Sikhs is completely unknown to the Sikh nation after they reformed. The point is that the mistakes and bad deeds go a long way and stick to the person’s name forever. No one thinks of Santa Singh’s apology as much as his treachery. This is probably how his name will be remembered in history. In my opinion, the only way for Nirmalas and sampardas to gain more respect and credit for their contribution is by reforming and modernizing themselves. They must keep up with the changing pace and present Gurmat by relating it to modern thought while keeping its purity and essence. They need to adopt new methods of study and let go off Hindu influences. Sikhs also need to be concerned about this order as it used to be the missionary wing of the Panth. I hope one day all sampardas and modern schools join hands and make progressive headway towards Gurmat parchaar. Guru Rakha

Why reform and modernize themselves when guru sahib themselves were quite ok living in india and living in indic society? I am sure guru sahib wanted to be modern, they would have make khalsa establishment in Rome. Have you read bhavrasamrit, vivek pardapika by white sikh nirmala? thats modern enough for you? not sure what you meant by modern? like wear trousers/shirt speak queen bristish english, have christmas tree, go to gurdwara every sunday and bow to only larivar saroop of sri guru granth sahib ji and see sikhi with christian evanglican/anglican/protestant eyes like anti dasam granth heretics doo? Last time i checked- nirmala are excellent environmentalist, ancient medicine practitioners, proffesors, scholars, scientist(vigyanis), saints, soldiers(when needed), bhek(outer bana) comes after but nirmala is define by deeds- Nirmal (pure).

I agree at the end modern schools and sampardava's have to work together. I think current sgpc work/ sri singh sahib jathedar gurbachan singh ji- jathedar of sri akaal takth sahib is setting an great example of reconcliation of nirmale/udasi/sevapanthis back in the panth, may be modern schools and puratan samparda's can leave the differences aside and to bring panth forwad.

[Sherdil]

What's the point of this thread?

"Hey, let's learn about the different heretic sects and what makes each of them unique!"

Snatinists are funny

[Bijla Singh]

Traditional indic philosophy, medicine, literature, spiritual sciences etc of which benares was the HQ...its the difference between just merely translating sanskrit to actually understaning it, also having access to huge quantities of traditional indic spiritual literature, ..the nirmale were created to ensure khalsa never had to rely on bhramins for access to indic scriptures.

One has to have knowledge of the language in order to translate it which requires understanding the context and metaphors. Your point is flawed. How can one translate a language and not understand it? There are many sakhis that prove beyond the doubt that Guru Sahib and many Sikhs had the knowledge of Hindu texts. Guru Sahib employed many scholars, poets etc. to translate the works so that Sikhs wouldn’t have to go to Brahmins. My contention is that Sikhs were trained and educated by Guru Sahib and not by Brahmins.

Utter bullocks..!! Singh sabha with exception of bhai vir singh ji have no antriv depth to offer to sikhi whatsoever.

Which teekas have you read so far? If “antriv” to you means presenting Vedantic terms and empty Hindu philosophies then this is not in-depth analysis of Gurbani itself. One doesn’t need a Gurbani teeka to know these terms. Gurbani interpretation needs to be in line with Gurmat not Vedant. Your traditional and modern approaches are lacking the middle ground.

Why reform and modernize themselves when guru sahib themselves were quite ok living in india and living in indic society?

You fail to understand the point. Guru Sahib had weapons, knowledge and literature of modern age of his time. It is not the principles one needs to give up but the application of them. Is the Indian soceity the same as 300 years ago?

I am sure guru sahib wanted to be modern, they would have make khalsa establishment in Rome.

Completely irrelevant. Khalsa was established where most needed and it was a modern army and complete break-off from Hinduism. Modern enough for me. But in today’s world, Khalsa should acquire modern weapons. The principle here is to keep arms and be ready to fight the enemy.

not sure what you meant by modern? like wear trousers/shirt speak queen bristish english, have christmas tree, go to gurdwara every sunday and bow to only larivar saroop of sri guru granth sahib ji and see sikhi with christian evanglican/anglican/protestant eyes like anti dasam granth heretics doo?

They utterly fail to present Gurmat and Sikh history using modern methods. I am not talking about giving up Gurmat principles but presenting them using modern day applications. Why not study western philosophy and relate Gurmat to it? Is that so hard for Nirmalas? Why keep sticking to Vedant which hardly anyone studies in India let alone the rest of the world.

Last time i checked- nirmala are excellent environmentalist, ancient medicine practitioners, proffesors, scholars, scientist(vigyanis), saints, soldiers(when needed), bhek(outer bana) comes after but nirmala is define by deeds- Nirmal (pure).

How many Nirmalas have universities in which one can obtain PhD on various Gurmat topics? Taksal was once a Sikh university but modern day standards have changed and Taksal and sampardas have failed to keep up. Once again, they need to revise the syllabus and setup a curriculum by keeping it to the standards of modern studies, use scientific approaches, study eastern and western philosophies, learn English and be well versed in debates etc. Most scholars writing books on Sikhi come from Punjabi universities and unfortunately most of the works are terribly poor. If sampardas could fill in the void, they can bring back their glory. I know some scholars from sampardas but they are very few. Guru Rakha

[chatanga]

So instead of posting sources and real historical references you're insulting people by calling them <Edited> Sikhs (no idea what that is) and discrediting Sir Max Arthur Macauliffe by saying he can't tell us about Sikh orders? That sounds very close-minded and taliban like.

The most constant literature of Gurmat has come from the Nirmal Panth, read Dr Trilochan Singh book " The turban and the sword of the Sikhs".

While there isn’t any controversy on Nirmala order being started by Guru Sahib, there is, however, contention on how it started and the purpose of this order. It is a popular story that five Sikhs were sent to learn Hindu texts from Benaras and upon their return they were exempt from taking Amrit and keep the attire they were wearing. There is hardly any shred of truth in this mythical story. All texts that mention the names of these Sikhs clearly state “Singh” as their last name. This proves that they were Amritdharis.

The timing of their sending actually pre-dates 1699 amrit ceremony so having the name singh in their name is no answer. I myself have heard 2 theories about this, the first is that on reaching Kashi, they were refused entry to the centres and hence some chganged their appearance so they wouldnt stand out, and hence received the vidiya. These people adopted the bhagva dress and sometimes did take amrit.

The 2nd is that on refusal on entry they returned to Panjab, where Guru Ji himself gave the knowledge they were denied and at that place where Guru Ji gave this knowlegde, he renamed that place as " Guru ki Kashi". I beleive that these people still wore white and took amrit.

Their mission was to spread out to different parts of the country and establish their akharas at Hindu holy places where people gathered in large numbers and preach Gurmat by debating learned Brahmins, yogis and pandits. They could easily present Gurmat by comparing it to six Hindu systems and show its uniqueness. They were supposed to present Gurmat by relating it to Hinduism. Their work was successful in the beginning but eventually they fell in the trap of the very system they were supposed to defend Gurmat from. They started presenting Gurmat in Vedantic terms and some of their works are testimony to that fact.

How could they debate with Brahmans without having any serious knowlegde of the sanskrit granths?

In all your debates with muslims, how have you managed to put your words/thoughts so eloquently? Because you have serious knowledge of not only Gurmat but also islam as well.

It is an historical fact that Khalsa Panth was started by Guru Sahib and it made mistakes,

The Khalsa Panth never made any theological mistakes, military ones yes, political ones yes, but not theoligical.

While sampardas complain about not getting due credit for their contribution, they are guilty of the same charges. How many samparda gyanis refer to Sajjan Thug, Bhoomiya thief and Kauda demon as Bhai Sajjan, Bhai Bhoomiya and Bhai Kauda respectively and their great contribution of Sikh parchaar? The life account of these Sikhs is completely unknown to the Sikh nation after they reformed.

I have never heard of any Gianis leaving their katha short on these characters, and not telling sangat about their lives after their reformation. I mean thats just like silly that any giani would even attempt that.

Nirmalas

- Why would Guru Gobind Singh ji send 5 Sikhs to benares to learn Sanskrit?

- Does this mean that Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't know Sanskrit himself, as he would have taught the 5 Sikhs?

- If Guru Gobind Singh ji didn't know Sanskrit, but was still a Brahmgyan Jivan Mukht Mahapurakh, then what's the use of Sanskrit?

Sewapanthis

- They sound cool, but they stay celibate and don't harm any form of life (almost like jains)

- Started by Bhai Khanaiya who didn't want to pick up the sword to fight the Mughals.

- They are pacifists, but Guru Gobind Singh ji has said, "When all peaceful means have failed, it is righteous to draw the sword".

- Guru Nanak told us to be householders.

Udasis

- The group started by Sri Chand, who was unfit to succeed Guru Nanak, so he started his own order.

- Sri Chand had too much ego to follow Guru Nanak's command to the T, so Guru Nanak picked Bhai Lehna (Guru Angad Dev ji) as his successor.

So these groups have all broken away from the Sikh panth at one point or another, yet they still call themselves Sikhs. However, a Sikh does not disobey his Guru. So how can they be considered Sikhs? They are sects of Sikhi at best.

Nirmalas

-were sent to Kashi to learn the vedic texts as part of their parchaar duty of Gurmat

sewapanthis

-yet all the teachings/writings/commentaries of this sakhi showed that Guru Ji was extremely pleased with Bhao Ghaniya's conduct

udasis

-yet Baba Sri Chand was not the only one to not follow Guru Nanak Dev Ji's command to a "T", Baba Budha Ji couldnt follow it either, and he was a brahamgyani.

[Sherdil]

Nirmalas

-were sent to Kashi to learn the vedic texts as part of their parchaar duty of Gurmat

sewapanthis

-yet all the teachings/writings/commentaries of this sakhi showed that Guru Ji was extremely pleased with Bhao Ghaniya's conduct

udasis

-yet Baba Sri Chand was not the only one to not follow Guru Nanak Dev Ji's command to a "T", Baba Budha Ji couldnt follow it either, and he was a brahamgyani.

I don't believe in the Nirmala story. Guru Sahib couldn't find ANY Pandit that would teach his Sikhs Sanskrit, because they were from the low castes? Guru Sahib had enough Khatri and Brahman Sikh converts; certainly more than 5. Why didn't the Pandit teach them? None of the Gurus, starting with Guru Nanak dev ji, went to Kashi to learn Vedic scripture. Yet, they were still Guru. That is because gurbani contains all the knowledge of the Vedas and the other Hindu scriptures, plus more. So, I don't see the need to study Hindu scriptures if you are a Sikh. Your Guru already has all the knowledge.

Guru Gobind Singh ji was pleased with Bhai Khanaiya, but Guru Maharaj sent him away to do his own thing. Whereas other Singhs died fighting for their Guru. Bhai Khanaiya left the family. Anyone is free to leave, that is why Guru Sahib gave him his blessing, but the point is that he left.

Baba Budha ji wasn't made guru either. Sri Chand started living the life of an ascetic. This is a direct contradiction to Guru Nanak's direction to live the life of a householder.

I have a problem when these groups call themselves Sikhs, because they don't follow the Sikhi prescribed by our Gurus. Yet they still wear bana and do Prakash of Adi Granth. This leads to confusion amongst people as to who Sikhs are and what they believe in. It plays into the hands of Brahmanical elements that having been sore over the fact that Sikhs wised up and slipped away from their clutches. They have been trying to get us to come back ever since.

[N30S1NGH]

One has to have knowledge of the language in order to translate it which requires understanding the context and metaphors. Your point is flawed. How can one translate a language and not understand it? There are many sakhis that prove beyond the doubt that Guru Sahib and many Sikhs had the knowledge of Hindu texts. Guru Sahib employed many scholars, poets etc. to translate the works so that Sikhs wouldn’t have to go to Brahmins. My contention is that Sikhs were trained and educated by Guru Sahib and not by Brahmins.

May be read some history of nirmale and try to understand why they were sent to banares.

NIRMALA, derived from Sanskrit nirmala meaning spotless, unsullied, pure, bright, etc.. is the name of a sect of Sikhs primarily engaged in religious study and preaching. The members of the sect are called Nirmala Sikhs or simply Nirmalas. The sect arose during the time of Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708), though some, on the authority of a line in the first iwof Bhai Gurdas (d. 1636), claim, like the Udasis, Guru Nanak (1469-1539) himself to be the founder. Guru Gobind Singh wanted his followers not only to train in soldierly arts but also to cultivate letters.

Especially during his stay at Paonta, on the bank of the River Yamuna, from 1685 to 1688, he had engaged a number of scholars to translate Sanskrit classics into current Braj or Punjabi, in order to bring them within easy reach of the less educated laity. Guru Gobind Singh once asked one of these scholars, Pandit Raghunath, to teach Sikhs Sanskrit. The latter politely excused himself on the plea that Sanskrit was deva bhdsd, language of the gods, and could not be taught to Sudras, i.e. members of the low castes.

To even this caste bias Guru Gobind Singh sent five of his Sikhs, namely Karam Singh, Vir Singh, Ganda Singh, Saina Singh and Ram Singh, dressed as upper class students, to Varanasi, the centre of Hindu learning. These Sikhs worked diligently for several years and returned to Anandpur as accomplished scholars of classical Indian theology and philosophy. In view of their piety and their sophisticated manner, they and their students came to be known as Nirmalas, and were later recognized as a separate sect.

After the evacuation of Anandpur in 1705, the Nirmala preachers went to different places outside the Punjab, particularly to Haridvar, Allahabad and Varanasi where they established centres of learning that exist to this day Kankhal, near Haridvar, Pakki Sangat at Allahabad, and Chetan Math and Chhoti Sangat at Varanasi. When, during the second half of the eighteenth century, the Sikhs established their sway over the Punjab, some of the Nirmala saints came back here and founded at different places centres which were liberally endowed by Sikh chiefs.

It was customary for Nirmala scholars to attend, along with their disciples, religious fairs at prominent pilgrimage centres such as Haridvar, Allahabad and Gaya, where they, like other sadhus, took out shdhis or processions and held philosophical debates with scholars of other religious denominations as a part of their preaching activity. Sometimes these scholastic exercises led to bitter rivalry and even physical confrontation. During the Haridvar Kumbh in 1855, a general meeting of the Nirmalas held in their principal derdat Kankhal took the first concrete step towards setting up a central body by electing Mahitab Singh of Rishikesh, reputed scholar of the sect, as their Sri Mahant or principal priest.

Mahitab Singh attracted attention of the rulers of Patiala, Nabha andJind with whose help a panchditt akhdrd named Dharam Dhuja was established at Patiala in 1861. Its formal in-aguguration took place on 7 August 1862. The headquarters of the sect, however, remained at Kankhal. The sect comprises several sampraddyas or subsects each with its own derd and its own following. The Nirmalas believe in the Ten Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib. Taking the baptism of the Khalsa is not compulsory nor common among them. As a distinguishing mark of the sect they don at least one of the garment in ochre colour.

They generally practise celibacy and are devoted to scriptural and philosophical study, but by tradition they are inclined towards classical Hindu philosophy especially Vedanta. Their contribution towards the preaching of Sikh doctrine and production of philosophical literature in Sanskrit, Braj, Hindi and Punjabi is considerable. Some of the important works that contributed to Sikh learning in general and the elucidation and regeneration of Sikh principles in particular are as follows: Sangam Sdr Chandrikd by Pandit Sadda Singh of Chetan Math, Varanasi, is commentary on a Sanskrit work on Advait philosophy, Advent Siddhi; Pandit Tara Singh Narotam (1822-91) wrote several books of which Gurmat Nimaya Sdgar (1877) and Guru Girdrath Kosh in two volumes (1889) deal with philosophy of Sikh religion.

His Sri Guru Tirath Sangrahi is a pioneer work on historical Sikh shrines in and outside India. Another famous Nirmala scholar Pandit Sadhu Singh wrote ShnMukh Vdiya Sidhdnt Jyotlstnd GuruSikhyd Prabhdkar (1893). Giani Gian Singh (1822-1921) is known for his contribution to Sikh history. His Panth Prakdsh in verse appeared in 1880 and Twdrikh Guru Khalsa in prose in 1891.

References :

1. Gian Singh, Giani, Sri Guru Panth Prakash. (ed., Giani Kirpal Singh). Amritsar, 1973

2. Hari Singh, Mahant, Nirmal Panth da Sankhep Itihas. Amritsar, 2018 Bk

3. Dyal Singh, Mahant, Nirmal Panth Darshan. Amritsar, 1952

Which teekas have you read so far? If “antriv” to you means presenting Vedantic terms and empty Hindu philosophies then this is not in-depth analysis of Gurbani itself. One doesn’t need a Gurbani teeka to know these terms. Gurbani interpretation needs to be in line with Gurmat not Vedant. Your traditional and modern approaches are lacking the middle ground.

Read Garabgazni teeka of japji sahib, haven't read full but bits about faridkot teeka of sri guru granth sahib ji- especially jap ji sahib, bhai gurdas ji varan teeka by Sant Sampooran Singh Bodhni. Antriv means adhyatamic/spiritual which speaks to human consciousness on different dimensions, if antriv arths is shared by vedantis so be it. Science of atma is shared, no one has ownership on it just like sun, water, air, earth, sky, air are universal things. I know had teja singh bhausaria had his way ...in insecurity, he would brand five tatvas like- gurmat air, gurmat sun, gurmat water, gurmat sky, gurmat earth, gurmat reincarnation- brand everything..!! It looks so cheap, un-educated, extremely insecure..!!!

Lot of indepth indic vedic knowledge(vigyan/science) which is *NOT* necessarily incompatible with Gurmat by default as gurmat does not build human/soul framework from scratch because there is no need to as its naturally compatible with existing knowledge of human/soul. For eg- Gurmat does not re-define how sun or moon looks like or science behind it, there is no need to..its already there so it does not re-define or re-invent the wheels of things specifically in the topic surrounding science of atma/human/body/paratma but rather acknowledges and reiterates- the universal knowledge which is already there. Off course its not a general rule across the board as its topic by topic basis but specifically in this topic of science of atma-paratama/human body is universal one and same..!! just like how life/death/human body functions, sun/moon/stars are universal things shared by all..!!

We should do full research before indicating it's contrary to Gurmat. Lot of stuff- vigyan/science behind soul/body which you mentioned above its already mentioned in gyani thakur singh ji (student of sant kartar singh ji bhindranwale) katha of japji sahib. I will leave that up to individual's own research.

You fail to understand the point. Guru Sahib had weapons, knowledge and literature of modern age of his time. It is not the principles one needs to give up but the application of them. Is the Indian soceity the same as 300 years ago?

Its not a principle, as i said earlier there is no hard and fast rule with nirmale...you will find quite bit of diversity within them- some are shastardhari and shaaastardhari like many upsamaprda like bhai dya singh ji - rara sahib,nurangabad, harkhowale some are not, its based on need (blending in hindu sadhus or blending in sikh mainstream), you have nirmale who were bhramgyani sant soldier when panth needed. Its upon need, baba sahib singh bedi, baba bir singh nurangabad, baba maharaj singh ji nurangabad, baba khuda singh ji. And upon need if mass is devoid of sikhi then go mainstream like many sants of malve did around british times bought so many people into sikhi fold...!!

Completely irrelevant. Khalsa was established where most needed and it was a modern army and complete break-off from Hinduism. Modern enough for me. But in today’s world, Khalsa should acquire modern weapons. The principle here is to keep arms and be ready to fight the enemy.

Bigggest enemy is mind, biggest weapon is to fight mind is - dya, dharam, bibek, sat, santokh, gyan. There are many who wrap themselves with the thought that primary enemy/weapon is outside and confine to it outside but in fact without killing the enemy inside- mind with your weapon, you cannot fight outside with your weapon..you become tamoguni rakshash if you take sipahi role before winning the internal battle inside- be sant...!!

Sipahi aspect of sant its naturally born, nurtured and controlled by sant aspect of one's life- dya (compassion), sat(truthful), sabar( patience), santokh(contentment), sam/advait dristhi (non dual one vision impartial perception of humanity).

They utterly fail to present Gurmat and Sikh history using modern methods. I am not talking about giving up Gurmat principles but presenting them using modern day applications. Why not study western philosophy and relate Gurmat to it? Is that so hard for Nirmalas? Why keep sticking to Vedant which hardly anyone studies in India let alone the rest of the world.

How many Nirmalas have universities in which one can obtain PhD on various Gurmat topics? Taksal was once a Sikh university but modern day standards have changed and Taksal and sampardas have failed to keep up. Once again, they need to revise the syllabus and setup a curriculum by keeping it to the standards of modern studies, use scientific approaches, study eastern and western philosophies, learn English and be well versed in debates etc. Most scholars writing books on Sikhi come from Punjabi universities and unfortunately most of the works are terribly poor. If sampardas could fill in the void, they can bring back their glory. I know some scholars from sampardas but they are very few. Guru Rakha

Western spiritual philosophy is great but where it mentions abhramic version of God, thats where it falls apart. There is a reason why western so called philosphers comes find eastern dharam intriguing including sikhi because they find wrathful/protestant version of God shallow and empty. There are plenty of analogies/examples/explanation to describe intertwine relationship between sargun and nirgun for westerners.

Nirmale don't have university? you are joking right? May be if you come out of your bhagti bhora once and while, you will know...did you even went out of your way to look for them? when was the last time you went to India? Nirmala's school establishment are literally every where in punjab- patiala and outside- haridvar/rishikesh.

Off course, if you go with tat khalsa mindset, you won't find them- everyone will appear malech, bhraminvaadi/advaiti- devoid of Gurmat to you ...!!!!

To name few- They have sant teja singh double ma, sant sher singh ji university of patiala, sant tirath singh ji (gora white sikh convert- professor at university of london at oriental studies) will explain hard concepts and debate with anyone with english regarding gurmat theological spiritual matters...!!

[Sherdil]

The Guru gave the True Command; why should we hesitate to proclaim this?

His sons did not obey His Word; they turned their backs on Him as Guru.

These evil-hearted ones became rebellious; they carry loads of sin on their backs.

Whatever the Guru said, Lehna did, and so he was installed on the throne.

Who has lost, and who has won? ||2||

He who did the work, is accepted as Guru; so which is better - the thistle or the rice?

The Righteous Judge of Dharma considered the arguments and made the decision.

Whatever the True Guru says, the True Lord does; it comes to pass instantaneously.

Guru Angad was proclaimed, and the True Creator confirmed it

These lines are from Gurbani. Your Guru is saying that Sri Chand was evil hearted and rebellious. Guru ji says that Sri Chand carried loads of sins on his back.

Yet on this forum, we have dedicated threads to learning about Sri Chand and his Udasi order. We have even gone so far as defending their beliefs and the 3HO practice of doing pooja in front of statues of Sri Chand.

It's very sad that some Sikhs have forgotten what their Guru has taught them.

Edit: I originally posted the gurmukhi part too, but it didn't show up properly. Page 967 of GGS, Satta and Balwand.

[Singh559]

For the record, I never doubted NIrmalas created by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

What I'm doubting is the way some people make up and twist history according to their own agenda without actually referring to historical pieces.

The brilliant write-up by Bijla Singh explained quite a lot and cleared a lot of misconceptions - everyone's recommended to read it.

It's easy just to call something bhasauria mindset or blame Singh Sabha, but to look at the truth from impartial eyes is hard to do, especially when you got a bunch of uneducated people making lectures about what our history is not.