Bedbi of SGGS in UK by Sikhs

[Guest singhster]

WJKK WJKF

I am in America so I don't know what is going on more than what is written in this article, but who the heck are these "Sikhs" who are ruining the sangat in the UK? Fighting in the gurdwara? In front of the guru? Just because you don't like what a scholar has to say? I am not very familiar with the debate so I don't have a side to take, but I'm inclined to believe those who are being peaceful rather than a bunch of egomaniacal thugs who think that they know Sikhi better than others.

http://www.sikhchic.com/current_events/bad_behaviour_in_any_gurdwara_is_unacceptable_the_sarabhjit_singh_dhunda_incident

I know things fracture along caste lines more in the UK. Maybe thats part of the story? Would love to hear what you all have to say.

[GPS]

Biggest thugs are these missionaries. Dhundha is a missionary who insults Guru sahib's teachings in sugar coated

poison laden katha.

The site is biased and want to divide sikhism so that sikhs can become shaven in the near future.

[Guest dasguruka]

As a wise person once said, "Guru Ji got rid of the masand system when it didn't work. BY BOILING EM IN OIL!" These guys aren't Guru wale Singhs.

[JagtarSinghKhalsa]

WJKK WJKF

I am in America so I don't know what is going on more than what is written in this article, but who the heck are these "Sikhs" who are ruining the sangat in the UK? Fighting in the gurdwara? In front of the guru? Just because you don't like what a scholar has to say? I am not very familiar with the debate so I don't have a side to take, but I'm inclined to believe those who are being peaceful rather than a bunch of egomaniacal thugs who think that they know Sikhi better than others.

http://www.sikhchic....dhunda_incident

I know things fracture along caste lines more in the UK. Maybe thats part of the story? Would love to hear what you all have to say.

WARNING: Comments on Sikh Chic are only allowed if they support the original article, others are not approved or edited so much to make them meaningless. Wonder if Sikhs in Canada could advise if libel laws can be used against what is being written/potsed as there is a moderation team for the web site who in effect take responsibility for what is posted.

[TheTruth2012]

What a joke!

Open challenge to Iqbal Singh, Dhundha and any1 else to contact us for an open, live televised debate!!

you decide location, and everything else.

we will bring the cameras, and pay for it to be on live TV.

(numerous times this offer has been put forward, but they don't accept!!!)

[West London Singh]

WJKK WJKF

I am in America so I don't know what is going on more than what is written in this article, but who the heck are these "Sikhs" who are ruining the sangat in the UK? Fighting in the gurdwara? In front of the guru? Just because you don't like what a scholar has to say? I am not very familiar with the debate so I don't have a side to take, but I'm inclined to believe those who are being peaceful rather than a bunch of egomaniacal thugs who think that they know Sikhi better than others.

http://www.sikhchic....dhunda_incident

I know things fracture along caste lines more in the UK. Maybe thats part of the story? Would love to hear what you all have to say.

_Singhhster_, in order to do well in this world it is vital to cultivate your perception and observation skills. It is vital ti be able to understand what motive an individual or organisation may have for telling you something. Then, you will be in a position to be able to judge how much of what they say is actually the truth. Lets take that article from Sickchic for example. It tells you that those who oppose Dhundha are 'hoolgans' even though it was the dhunda supporters who were paid thugs. It tells you that the 'local sangat' supported Dhundha even though it was the local sangat who opposed him. You will do well to understand who is telling you what and why they are telling you it. They're smart for doing so. The rather silly and simple one would be you for falling for the trick.

And btw....things are not "fractured along caste lines more in the UK". Its just that the UK diaspora is a far more varied group than in your neck of the woods. Here, a very many and varied background multitude of Sikh groupings exist in massive numbers. As such, there are a multitude of dialects, customs and even home-languages spoken by the UK Sikh community. This is not a 'fracture'. This is merely a much more heterogeneous society of Sikhs compared to your homogeneous one.

You see, learning things is easy. The hard bit, and what is probably one of the hardest things in the world to accomplish, is being able to get a message opposing something written on sikhchic published on sikhchic. Achieving such a thing is indeed a great mystery. The greatest mystery of all however, is the identity of the man or woman that edits comments on sikhchic. A supposed master of the English language with the magical ability to change a comment to such an extent that the content not only becomes unrecognisable to the author it ceases to have the same meaning as originally intended. This great master - obviously the product of an elite private education in India - that doesn't seem to understand the western nuances of the English language and how it has evolved since the days of Dickens. Perhaps one day the identity of the said editor will be revealed. At the moment it is merely a mystery and we can only speculate. I personally think it is the ghost of either Mark Twain or Edgar Allen Poe. I would be shocked if it turns out to be a product of the 20th century.

[Guest GuptAnon1]

How is the UK Sikh community a more varied group than the US Sikh community?

It seems like the vast majority of you have roots in the Doaba region. That doesn't exactly make for the greatest diversity as far as culture, dialects, etc.

[West London Singh]

How is the UK Sikh community a more varied group than the US Sikh community?

It seems like the vast majority of you have roots in the Doaba region. That doesn't exactly make for the greatest diversity as far as culture, dialects, etc.

Education. Learning. These are all great things.

The majority of the 'jatt sikhs' are from doaba. However, when it comes to Sikhs in the UK the jatts make up a smaller proportion of Sikhs than they do in Punjab. In contrast, the jatt sikhs in Canada and America make up a bigger proportion of Sikhs than they do in Punjab.

In the UK, there are other groups who are present in massive numbers whilst only present in minority numbers in north america. For example, the Bhatra Sikhs. They are originally from Sialkot but now mostly from Delhi. Thy have customs and traditions that are totally alien and different to other Sikhs and they speak the Sialkot dialect of Punjabi, as well as having their own ancient language from sri lanka. In fact there are many cities in England that give the impression that 99% of worldwide Sikhs are Bhatras. The Afghan Sikhs are here in massive numbers and speak the persian languages far better and far more than they speak Punjabi. Again, their ways, customs and traditions are very different to other groups. The East African Tarkhans are here in massive numbers and in many towns and cities easily outnumber the jatts. Their have their origins in various districts of Punjab and speak a variety of dialects, whilst many of them are more confident in Swahili than Punjabi. The Delhi Khatri Sikhs are here in big numbers and have ways, customs, traditions and dialects different to others. The chamars, for example, are probably larger in numbers than the jatts in the city of Birmingham itself. It is just groups such as the Tonks or Kambojs that are only present in the small minority numbers similar to that in north america.

Education. Learning new things. These are all great things.

[Guest _Singhster_]

_Singhhster_, in order to do well in this world it is vital to cultivate your perception and observation skills. It is vital ti be able to understand what motive an individual or organisation may have for telling you something. Then, you will be in a position to be able to judge how much of what they say is actually the truth. Lets take that article from Sickchic for example. It tells you that those who oppose Dhundha are 'hoolgans' even though it was the dhunda supporters who were paid thugs. It tells you that the 'local sangat' supported Dhundha even though it was the local sangat who opposed him. You will do well to understand who is telling you what and why they are telling you it. They're smart for doing so. The rather silly and simple one would be you for falling for the trick.

And btw....things are not "fractured along caste lines more in the UK". Its just that the UK diaspora is a far more varied group than in your neck of the woods. Here, a very many and varied background multitude of Sikh groupings exist in massive numbers. As such, there are a multitude of dialects, customs and even home-languages spoken by the UK Sikh community. This is not a 'fracture'. This is merely a much more heterogeneous society of Sikhs compared to your homogeneous one.

You see, learning things is easy. The hard bit, and what is probably one of the hardest things in the world to accomplish, is being able to get a message opposing something written on sikhchic published on sikhchic. Achieving such a thing is indeed a great mystery. The greatest mystery of all however, is the identity of the man or woman that edits comments on sikhchic. A supposed master of the English language with the magical ability to change a comment to such an extent that the content not only becomes unrecognisable to the author it ceases to have the same meaning as originally intended. This great master - obviously the product of an elite private education in India - that doesn't seem to understand the western nuances of the English language and how it has evolved since the days of Dickens. Perhaps one day the identity of the said editor will be revealed. At the moment it is merely a mystery and we can only speculate. I personally think it is the ghost of either Mark Twain or Edgar Allen Poe. I would be shocked if it turns out to be a product of the 20th century.

WLS I appreciate your post, but don't appreciate your tone.

I didn't say that I take the article for face value, which is precisely why I brought it to the forum, to try to see what is going on. If there are differing accounts of whats going on, could you point me to an article or forum where the issue is better discussed? I should be no more inclined to believe you than the SikhChic article.

Your research skills are a bit lacking if you cannot tell that the editor of SikhChic is T. Sher Singh from Canada. This is public knowledge.

As they took the same line with the Darshan Singh controversy, I know that the site and its readers are anti-Dasam Granth, the same way that one side of the parties involved in the fight are pro-Dasam Granth. Now from a scholarly perspective, which Dhundha is operating in, the jury is still out on the Dasam Granth. What the pro-Dasam Granth folks should do, is mount a similar effort speaking in the same language that Dhundha does to bury his arguement once and for all. For someone like me who didn't grow up with the Dasam Granth, and who has only seen the Dasam Granth once, in a Nihang Dera near Patiala, I feel like I need to be properly convinced that it deserves to be taken as bani. I don't take a hard line against it, I just haven't heard a good case for it. Now, in regards to this situation, I have a hard time understanding your interpretation:

*someone* in the gurdwara committee must have invited Dhunda

the sangat was opposed to this

so then Dhundas supporters paid people to come in and begin fighting in the gurdwara? So I take it that the darbar hall must not have had any local sangat in it to begin with, since they opposed Dhunda being there in the first place.

I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying I don't follow your logic.

On the notion of caste, I would still say that the UK is fractured on those lines. You dont see gurdwaras in Canada or the US proudly displaying a caste name as the title of the Gurughar, heterogeneity/diversity doesn't imply panthic unity.

Also I'm curious to see if there is a Bhatra who speaks this "ancient language from Sri Lanka"

I'm so sorry if I offended anyone, bhul chuk maaf!

[DailyMail]

The Dhunda story has become far too complex. I fear the Sikhs are incapable of academic scholarship of their own faith without resorting to death threats.Compare this with Christianity. The very origins for the establishment of Oxford, Cambridge and St Andrews Universities was centred on theology and religion. Particle physics etc came much after. Why Sikhs are unable to examine their own faith and have the confidence to argue (debate) with those who study the faith is beyond me. Smashing windows (a few years ago) and resorting to threats of violence (2 weeks ago) simply attracts publicity that even the organisers of these events could not have dreamed of.

Furthermore, it is unhelpful for everyone sitting behind a computer to label people as "an agent" or words to that effect everytime a controversy arises. It's very immature.

My views on Dhunda - I don't know what to make of it! It appears he may indeed be misguided in some aspects of what he says. However, I'd rather hear him say it, disagree with him and tell him where he went wrong, rather than swear at other people's mothers and sisters in the vincinity of a gurdwara behaving so atrociously it looked like an embryonic form of the taliban-mindset. Left unchecked and who knows what that'll grow into.

On a side note, unlike Canada, the USA isn't as homogenous as WLS appears to project. The entire east coast is saturated with khatri Sikhs almost void of jatts. The west coast however, is somewhat different, as we all know!