I don't know y people say Gurus are God...

[N30S1NGH]

jasdeepsingh bro,

We need to do deeper vichar why sri guru gobind singh maharaj gave tharna bachans/cautionary bachans in sri dasam granth sahib about people calling him God. We need to understand that moment or that time- where hindus were idioliziing their avtars (sri ram chandar ji and sri krishan ji) to the point they are confining Vahiguroo nirgun paratma all within their sargun avtars so to avoid sikhs go through that same kind of pitfalll- sri guru gobind singh ji forewarn his sikhs whilst sargun is part of sikhi but with that being said ultimate profound experience of vahiguroo lies within shabad and the gyan of self- nirgun vahiguroo (anubhav parkash).

Please look at the post i managed to made regarding this very subtle and deep matter:

This is pricely my point that was made in other thread, but lot of sikhs (missionary others alike) have this "Abrahamic' version of God because of victorian influence. They have no idea about sargun and nirgun and nirgun intertwined relatationship with sargun. There is nothing "hindu" about Vahiguroo transceding its attributes or immanent its attributes to sargun(shud satogun) avtars according to need and time. There are many different types of avtar (listen to sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale on avtars in japji sahib katha)

Jab Jab Hot Arsat Apara

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara (Bachitar Natak)

Whenever numerous tyrants take birth

Then that one takes avtar in physical form.

Every one should read 18 long pages anyalsis in english on avtarvad and sikhi by tirath singh nirmala in Bhavrasamrit teeka translations and commentary. It's very interesting and clarifies gurmat position on avtarvaad and clears lot of misconception.

Whilst gurmat uses concept of avtar where it needs to, according to time (puran hari avtar guidance etc, narsingh to kill harnakash and save parlad, nit avtars- saints etc) and for devotion for gurmukhs (sargun vahiguroo upma in our granths - sri guru granth sahib, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth and other ithasik granths soraj parkash etc be it in form of gurbani tuks, mangal charan etc) it does not over emphasize importance on avtars to the point where sikhs start making same mistakes as some follower of other avtars did in the past have did - mistaking the gunas (shud satogun etc) themselves as nirgun chaitan vahiguroo instead of transcending naturally to gyan layer of sikhi or also idiolizing the avtars limited to an idol worshipping and getting stuck at idol worshipping forgetting indestructibale nirgun paratma. Hence, having dvait (duality) contary to Gurmat, as Gurmat is advait (non duality Marg).

Gurmat uses very careful and balance approach when it comes to avtarvad and Sikhi so sikhs don't pitfall like other followers of other dharams have. Gurbani contains two sides of same coin to teaching on avtar emphasing brahman (nirgun paratma) in sat chit anand ( Ad ant eko avtara sohi samjheo guru hamra) and on other side of coin presenting sargun paratma in form of our guru sahib to invoke devotion ie- prem.

Considered carefully there is no contradictions here on two sides of same coin on avtarvaad, its only clear guidance about the two paramaters by which to understand nature of avatar; the symbolic form is to inculate devotion, inspiration, adoration, love and sacrifice purely as a means to realise that which is beyond gunas

Ighai Nirugn Ughai Sargun kel Karat Bich Swami Mera

Here ( you are) formless; there (you are) with form. You play it both ways, O my swami || Ang - 827

[N30S1NGH]

With all that being said above,

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj is not only sargun roop Guru Avtar but also shabad and nirgun roop...When we mention sri guru nanak dev nirankar we should have no duality whatsoever..we should consider sri guru nanak dev nirankar as sargun/shabad/Vahiguroo nirgun gyan roop in its totality..!!!!!!!!!!!

[kullykhalsa]

nail on the head n30singh

Dustofyourfeet - your analogy is correct but your logical process is wrong we are all the sea some like the guru's are cleaner water then the rest but akaal resides in all. you suggest that the water in the cup is the same as the ocean incorrect, no cup can contain the vastness/power of the ocean. guru cannot be akaal purakh as he/she is confined by limits of the body and mortal mind.

[Guest]

Gurpreet14 you are not right. If Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that (and it is not translated as those who call themselves God end up in hell), I believe they said it out of humility and to make sure people don't end up worshiping them (flesh and bone) as God.

Because if they mean that (which they don't), they are contradicting themsevles (and obviously Guru Ji cannot condradict himself) as in Sukhmain Sahib, Guru ji declares the Brahmgiani as God himself and obviously, Guru Ji is Brahmgiani.

This is an A+ post

[Guest Guest]

This discussion is confusing me.... is there anyone with valid/solid point to call Guru- God?

[kullykhalsa]

Just playin devils advocate now surely you intepreting guru's words as contradictory means you are then further assuming or inferring your own opinion on the matter so your first line of gurpreet is wrong is just an assumption on your behalf rather than a logical rational choice why dont you believe that brahmgiani is in essence god, not actually god easily another assumption you could make

for me a B - post

[Gurpreet14]

Just playin devils advocate now surely you intepreting guru's words as contradictory means you are then further assuming or inferring your own opinion on the matter so your first line of gurpreet is wrong is just an assumption on your behalf rather than a logical rational choice why dont you believe that brahmgiani is in essence god, not actually god easily another assumption you could make

for me a B - post

We are not here to grade the post... i want know whats the fact dear...

if u cant explain it better dont reply to my post

u r Z- for me

[jang123]

Mahapursh tell that avtar do not evolve in the body during the nine months in the mother's womb. The body after birth gets parkash so it is basically wrong to bring the avtars and normal humans on the same level! I don't have the audio of Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale or other Mahapursh who tell about this. Moreover if anyone wants to attain self realisation it is important for a sikh to not to differentiate between Guru and Waheguru.

'Gur Govind Govind Guru hai Nanak Bhed Na Bhai'

Guru is God, God is Guru, Nanak does not the differentiate between these.

[N30S1NGH]

Avtars are made out of shud satogun where as us mortal being made out of rajo, tamo and sato gun- uphadi maya...thats key and huge difference..!!

[13Mirch]

Sidh Gosht says that one must connect with the shabad of the Guru not the deh. Guru maharaj were akal purakh, like the ocean and glass example someone gave above. But it's not their saroop we are connecting with but the shabad. Gurbani is Waheguru's word given to us by him.