I don't know y people say Gurus are God...

[luckysingh99]

Another little point to think about is, that if the Gurus were God, then who were they praying to ?

Who were they meditating to ?

Who was Guru Gobind Singh ji doing ardaas to ?

The very fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes an example of past heroes of Hindu scriptures as becoming obsessed with themselves and believing themselves to be God indicates as much that the idea that Guru and God are literally the same entity is about as non-Sikkh an idea as you can have.

[papidas]

Actually in the Shabad i quotes:

ParBraham Gur Naahee Ped ||4||11||24||

The Gur has no aukad under the rara which means that it is refering to Dhan Dhan Dhan Sahib Sri Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar Saroop Sache Patshah Jee. So that denounces your point. Further, you haven't my original post. ALL BRAHAM GIANIS KNEW SATGURU JEE AND AKAL PURAKH VAHEGUROO JEE AS ONE AND THE SAME. Have you reached Turiyeea Pad, yet? So can you claim to know more than MahaPurahses?! According to Taksal tere are 3 types of Purakhs. The highest being Mahapurakhs. You are classifying Satguru Jee as an Am Purakh. If you want to go by the clause that all answers lie in Gurbani. Nanak Braham Giani Apu Parmesur ||6|| If you still disagree that means you think Satguru Jee is NOT BRAHAM GIANI. Also, if you think this line refers to those who have become one with GOD... We come back come back to the fact that ALL BRAHAM GIANIS KNEW SATGURU JEE AND AKAL PURAKH VAHEGUROO JEE AS ONE AND THE SAME.

[Guest dasguruka]

Guru's are illuminated souls who are one with Akal Purakh. They should be given the utmost respect. But, I believe all the Gurus still consider them lower than Akal Purakh and do bandgi of Akal Purakh so that other people could do the same thing. In Guru Granth Sahib Ji Gurus aren't referred to as Gurus. Its Mehla pehla or dooja or teeja. In Sukhmani Sahib, however, its mentioned "Aad Gur A Namahay...Jugaad Gur A Namahay...etc." but I believe if Gurus were present, they would still tell the world to worship only and only Akal Purakh.

[luckysingh99]

Actually in the Shabad i quotes:

ParBraham Gur Naahee Ped ||4||11||24||

The Gur has no aukad under the rara which means that it is refering to Dhan Dhan Dhan Sahib Sri Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar Saroop Sache Patshah Jee. So that denounces your point. Further, you haven't my original post. ALL BRAHAM GIANIS KNEW SATGURU JEE AND AKAL PURAKH VAHEGUROO JEE AS ONE AND THE SAME. Have you reached Turiyeea Pad, yet? So can you claim to know more than MahaPurahses?! According to Taksal tere are 3 types of Purakhs. The highest being Mahapurakhs. You are classifying Satguru Jee as an Am Purakh. If you want to go by the clause that all answers lie in Gurbani. Nanak Braham Giani Apu Parmesur ||6|| If you still disagree that means you think Satguru Jee is NOT BRAHAM GIANI. Also, if you think this line refers to those who have become one with GOD... We come back come back to the fact that ALL BRAHAM GIANIS KNEW SATGURU JEE AND AKAL PURAKH VAHEGUROO JEE AS ONE AND THE SAME.

OK , I will try to put it a little more simply-

Firstly, there is nothing wrong with your quotes at all.

I agree that ''satgur jee and akaal purakh vaheguru are one and the same''

Remember that the words spoken originally by Nanak ji and which are now in the SGGS ji are the words of GOD and from GOD.

The shabad is the guru, we must remember.

If explaining this to a kid, it's like saying that GOD spoke the shabads 'VIA' Guru Nanak ji when he was here.

The 'WHEN HE WAS HERE' is important.

Because NOW he is not here, he is fully merged into the ONE GOD, he is now GOD and God is him.

He also taught us to be jeevan mukt, which is being liberated whilst alive.

I'm sure that most will believe he was jivan mukt very early in his life and was therefore merged. BUT he was still here in a present form of human, therefore physically he was not merged. This was the part of him that did the praying to the supreme.

Now, you should understand that there was the huge merged Nanak ji as well as the physical sargun Nanak that spoke the God's word.

The shabads above all refer to bearing this in mind, YES he is now God and God is him, because of total merging.

I hope you understand what I mean because I've tried to keep it simple.

No one is claiming they know more than others, it is al about understanding.

I can clearly undertstand why you are saying what you are,whilst at the same time I can understand what I'm saying.

A Drop can be merged with the Ocean, BUT it Can NOT be the Ocean.

[N30S1NGH]

I cannot believe we are talking about this topic on sri guru nanak dev nirankar avtar purab.....this topic is good and its good to do vichar but there is a time and place for everything..Anyway, without sounding like broken record..i will try to make it short-

Without bhramgyan its not possible to realize full unity between sargun form of satguru nanak dev nirankar and nirgun form of Satguru Nanak Dev which is shabad guru/gyan of self. But we must believe in non dual united roop of satguru nanak dev nirankar, because that very duality to perceive satguru nanak dev nirankar as dual itself will become road block and hindrance in one's spirituality/avastha in future.

Satguru nanak dev nirankar came to this world as Vahiguroo himself in sargun roop but their jot (which never born or dies) is nirgun roop. Hence, leaving no contradiction with sidhant of mool mantra..!!..Sidhant of mool mantra especially kartapurkh ajooni denotes nirgun saroop of Vahiguroo/Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar..!!!

[N30S1NGH]

A Drop can be merged with the Ocean, BUT it Can NOT be the Ocean.

That perception it cannot be the ocean itself indicates duality/individualistic consciousness. Once its merged there is no difference. Don't get me wrong there are stages like four types of sargun mukhti where one feels they are immersed with nirankar while maintaing their individualistic consciousness but that is not bhramgyan -its mukhti prior to bhramgyan one goes through if their perception is sargun based as one is still yet to get gyan/realization of full ekta of khel of sargun and nirgun..!!

Bhramgyan is full unity of sargun and nirgun form of Vahiguroo as - EK ADVAIT NIRGUN PARBHRAM VAHIGUROO nothing else..read my signature for more info..!!

[luckysingh99]

All very well, and I have agreed about what we should accept now.

But, the point is about when Guru Nanak Ji was here, it's like saying that God had come down on earth as him.

This is similar to ones claiming moses was god, christ was god..etc..

If that was so, then who was he praying to, praising and talking about ?

गावहि सनकादि साध सिधादिक मुनि जन गावहि अछल छला ॥

Gāvahi sankāḏ sāḏẖ siḏẖāḏik mun jan gāvahi acẖẖal cẖẖalā.

Sanak and Brahma's sons, the Saadhus and Siddhas, the silent sages and humble servants of the Lord sing the Praises of Guru Nanak, who cannot be deceived by the great deceiver.

गावहि गुण बरन चारि खट दरसन ब्रहमादिक सिमरंथि गुना ॥

Gāvahi guṇ baran cẖār kẖat ḏarsan barahmāḏik simranth gunā.

The four castes and the six Shaastras sing His Glorious Praises; Brahma and the others contemplate His Virtues.

गावै गुण महादेउ बैरागी जिनि धिआन निरंतरि जाणिओ ॥

Gāvai guṇ mahāḏė­o bairāgī jin ḏẖi­ān niranṯar jāṇi­o.

Shiva, detached and beyond desire, sings the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the Lord's endless meditation.

त्रेतै तै माणिओ रामु रघुवंसु कहाइओ ॥

Ŧarėṯai ṯai māṇi­o rām ragẖūvans kahā­i­o.

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

दुआपुरि क्रिसन मुरारि कंसु किरतारथु कीओ ॥

Ḏu­āpur krisan murār kans kirṯārath kī­o.

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

कलिजुगि प्रमाणु नानक गुरु अंगदु अमरु कहाइओ ॥

Kalijug parmāṇ Nānak gur angaḏ amar kahā­i­o.

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

महादेउ गुण रवै सदा जोगी जति जंगम ॥

Mahāḏė­o guṇ ravai saḏā jogī jaṯ jangam.

Shiva, the Yogis and the wandering hermits sing His Praises forever.

ब्रहमा गुण उचरै जिनि हुकमि सभ स्रिसटि सवारीअ ॥

Barahmā guṇ ucẖrai jin hukam sabẖ sarisat savārī­a.

His Praises are sung by Brahma, who created the entire universe by God's Command.

We can never find out that whether he was god himself or not, perhaps whats more important is that he left a method (sikhism) by which we can attain god.

This is what the shabad tells us.

[luckysingh99]

I don't know what the problem is everytime I post some gurmukhi, but it ruins the conversation when it doesn't show up.

This is more than a nuisance for a sikh forum.

I wish something would be done soon.

[N30S1NGH]

Well he came as Pooran Guru Avtar.. You may want to read upon concept of Avtar..he came enlightened.. no need for enlightenment, as nirguna form of Vahiguroo immanent itself to Guru Avtar and Hari Avtar according to the need. Whilst Satguru Nanak Dev physical body made of shud satogun stayed in parameters in sargun limitations whatever shud satogun limitations are set... His nirguna roop of that timeless is jot and Shabad roop is Vahiguroo.

[Sewadar]

As rightly mentioned, it would require an individual to reach a particular avastha before they can make comments about Guru Sahibaan being the same as Akal Purakh or not. Gurbani has clearly stated several times that there is no difference between the Guru and Vaheguru. We cannot force anyone to believe in something, however, we only encourage others to have faith in Gurbani. Rather than trying to question what Gurbani states, how about trying to get to a level where you can actually grasp the deeper meanings behind what is said?