black magic.... why do many of you believe in this?

[kullykhalsa]

Evil things love place with no sucham lol what a response!

Do some paat don't worry about it these things have more hold over you if your scared of them.... Nirbhau....

[Sherdil]

Isn't that statement a fallacy? or if not a fallacy, erroneous?

We should adhere to Gurbani, and have faith in it. Then as mentioned numerous times in Gurbani there are ghost, pooth, prets, all that nice stuff.

I agree, a Gursikh becomes untouchable, but then you call them fallacies. Isn't that a fallacy, saying that pooths and prets are not real/misconceptions but then saying to adhere to Gurbani which states that they are real? If they were not real why would we need Waheguru Ji's protection? (refer to gurbani below please )

Therefore to the OP the best way of looking at this is yes there is black magic, ghosts, evils, w.e.

How do we save our selves?

hir ismrq ikCu cwKu n johY ] har simarath kishh chaakh n johai || Meditating in remembrance on the Lord, the Eye of Death cannot see you. hir ismrq dYq dyau n pohY ] har simarath dhaith dhaeo n pohai || Meditating in remembrance on the Lord, demons and ghosts shall not touch you. hir ismrq mohu mwnu n bDY ] har simarath mohu maan n badhhai || Meditating in remembrance on the Lord, attachment and pride shall not bind you. hir ismrq grB join n ruDY ]2] har simarath garabh jon n rudhhai ||2|| Meditating in remembrance on the Lord, you shall not be consigned to the womb of reincarnation. ||2||

By seeking the protection of the Lord. Therefore the best prevention/protection is Gurbani.

When can we be harmed?

When we are weak in our spirituality. Therefore strengthen your spirituality if you are afraid, or give this advice to others if they feel like they need to go to these pandits. But to just trash something because we can't fully see it or understand it is absurd.

Time is a tricky thing. We look at it like everyone in the past was ridiculous, blundering around being stupid. Now we are the right ones and we get to scorn those who still live in the past. Not really, it seems much more circular, rediscovering, losing, inventing, reinventing. Everyone is focused on how modern, and progressed the world is compared to the past but look at all the old forgotten sciences which were originally thought to be baseless and our now being researched and validated.

The scientific method/thought process is far from perfect but people apply it to everything now a days. Truthfully, science is corrupted. You only research things that make money, or you do research in truly important fields and live broke, get laughed at and your research sits in archives. They get the caste of "untouchable" until some rich guy comes along and wants it researched so he can make money off of it! by this point the original researchers career is over or their dead..... so yeah.

Sorry I went on a bit of a tangent, but long story short: it's there, do you're paat, you'll be good. Convince others to do paat as well, they'll be good, and you'll get brownie points!

Guru Sahib's aim was to educated the ignorant masses, and get them to stop doing false practices.

If Guru Sahib says that ghosts and demons will not touch you if you remember God, it does not mean that Guru Sahib believes in these things. They were guiding people towards the gurmat path.

It's similar to an adult telling a child that if they misbehave, Santa will put them on the naughty list and they won't receive any presents. The adult doesn't believe in Santa, but they are playing to the ignorance of the child, in order to get the child to do the right thing.

[Singh23]

Guru Sahib's aim was to educated the ignorant masses, and get them to stop doing false practices.

If Guru Sahib says that ghosts and demons will not touch you if you remember God, it does not mean that Guru Sahib believes in these things. They were guiding people towards the gurmat path.

It's similar to an adult telling a child that if they misbehave, Santa will put them on the naughty list and they won't receive any presents. The adult doesn't believe in Santa, but they are playing to the ignorance of the child, in order to get the child to do the right thing.

Veerai with that same mentality of gurbani one could say that there is no dharam raj or no chitr gupt and that guru sahib imagined these up to scare the "ignorant masses". Where do you draw the line as to what is fiction and fact?

And your example of Santa clause is very good. But that only works if the kid believes in Santa. Otherwise if he knew it was their parents giving the presents, he would pretend to be good in front of his parents and be bad everywhere else and still reap the rewards.

What I think your suggesting is that Guru sahib used the false stories of jamdoots to scare people until there was enough Bhau and prem in their hearts for them to be solid in sikhi and maintain through love and etc.

Which could make sense, unless we had real life examples:

Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji biography, written by Sant Baba Seva Singh Ji

For those who don't know of Baba Ji's jeevani I would recommend that they read this biography called 'Se Kinehiya' in which we get a glimpse of how Baba ji did bhagti and how he was tried by many ghosts and even more amazingly when Kaam tried to do a vaar on Baba Ji and he withstood its full attack with kirpa of guru ji.

Below is a small excerpt but I implore all to read about Baba Ji's jeevani as its full with so many wonderful stories and lessons it's hard to put in words.

http://rampurkhera.com/publication

Rampur Khera (Mound)

This mound has a separate story. Among all the ancient mounds

of the Punjab, this particular mound, is known as “cursed mound” Under

some calamity of nature the place suddenly disappeared perhaps like

Mahenjo-daro and never rehabilitated. A curse from heaven could only

be removed by a holy soul. The place has been blessed, after many

centuries, due to Surgvasi Sant Harnam Singh Ji who worshipped here

for half a century. During his austerities many cursed souls, challenged

the Saint to disturb him while he was fully absorbed in true Naam. But,

by the Grace of Waheguru Baba Harnam Singh Ji ultimately succeeded.

All the accursed souls left this mound. The place once again became a

Sach-Khand an immortal place by Baba Ji and its name got changed

from theh (deserted place) to Khera (a spiritually blissful place).

[Sherdil]

Veerai with that same mentality of gurbani one could say that there is no dharam raj or no chitr gupt and that guru sahib imagined these up to scare the "ignorant masses". Where do you draw the line as to what is fiction and fact?

And your example of Santa clause is very good. But that only works if the kid believes in Santa. Otherwise if he knew it was their parents giving the presents, he would pretend to be good in front of his parents and be bad everywhere else and still reap the rewards.

What I think your suggesting is that Guru sahib used the false stories of jamdoots to scare people until there was enough Bhau and prem in their hearts for them to be solid in sikhi and maintain through love and etc.

Which could make sense, unless we had real life examples:

Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji biography, written by Sant Baba Seva Singh Ji

For those who don't know of Baba Ji's jeevani I would recommend that they read this biography called 'Se Kinehiya' in which we get a glimpse of how Baba ji did bhagti and how he was tried by many ghosts and even more amazingly when Kaam tried to do a vaar on Baba Ji and he withstood its full attack with kirpa of guru ji.

Below is a small excerpt but I implore all to read about Baba Ji's jeevani as its full with so many wonderful stories and lessons it's hard to put in words.

http://rampurkhera.com/publication

Rampur Khera (Mound)

This mound has a separate story. Among all the ancient mounds

of the Punjab, this particular mound, is known as “cursed mound” Under

some calamity of nature the place suddenly disappeared perhaps like

Mahenjo-daro and never rehabilitated. A curse from heaven could only

be removed by a holy soul. The place has been blessed, after many

centuries, due to Surgvasi Sant Harnam Singh Ji who worshipped here

for half a century. During his austerities many cursed souls, challenged

the Saint to disturb him while he was fully absorbed in true Naam. But,

by the Grace of Waheguru Baba Harnam Singh Ji ultimately succeeded.

All the accursed souls left this mound. The place once again became a

Sach-Khand an immortal place by Baba Ji and its name got changed

from theh (deserted place) to Khera (a spiritually blissful place).

No, I'm not saying that Guru ji invented these stories of ghosts and demons to scare people.

I'm saying that people already believed in these things, and probably did elaborate rituals to ward them off.

If Guru ji would have told these people that they are being silly and superstitious, they wouldn't have listened to him.

Instead he told them that if they remember God, then these ghosts and demons cannot touch them.

It was his way of guiding them towards the gurmat path.

Remember the story of how the villagers were throwing water to their ancestors living on the sun? Guru Ji didn't tell them they were being silly. Instead, he started throwing water towards his farm in Kartarpur. They asked him why he was being so foolish. He replied, "If this water cannot reach my farms, then how can it reach your ancestors on the sun?"

You see, this was his thareeka (method).

[Singh23]

No, I'm not saying that Guru ji invented these stories of ghosts and demons to scare people.

I'm saying that people already believed in these things, and probably did elaborate rituals to ward them off.

If Guru ji would have told these people that they are being silly and superstitious, they wouldn't have listened to him.

Instead he told them that if they remember God, then these ghosts and demons cannot touch them.

It was his way of guiding them towards the gurmat path.

Remember the story of how the villagers were throwing water to their ancestors living on the sun? Guru Ji didn't tell them they were being silly. Instead, he started throwing water towards his farm in Kartarpur. They asked him why he was being so foolish. He replied, "If this water cannot reach my farms, then how can it reach your ancestors on the sun?"

You see, this was his thareeka (method).

Well at least we agree that through gurmat and gurbani we are protected.

But you never answered the main points: Where can we draw the line between fact and fiction? Is dharam raaj real? Are the different khands mentioned in jap ji sahib real? The soul? chitr gupt? Or were these ideas present and Guru Sahib used them to his advantage?

And you failed to comment on Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji's experiences.

Can you please provide a response to these as well?

[Sherdil]

Well at least we agree that through gurmat and gurbani we are protected.

But you never answered the main points: Where can we draw the line between fact and fiction? Is dharam raaj real? Are the different khands mentioned in jap ji sahib real? The soul? chitr gupt? Or were these ideas present and Guru Sahib used them to his advantage?

And you failed to comment on Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji's experiences.

Can you please provide a response to these as well?

Akal Purakh is Dharam Raj. Karma is a part of the natural law of the universe. God has put this system in place. Appeh Beejh Appeh hi Kaho. What you sow, so you shall reap. In the end, you choose your path and the outcome is given accordingly.

The different khands are levels of consciousness. They exist in your mind. Through meditation and good deeds, you elevate your mind until you achieve a state of bliss called Sach Khand. This is our liberation (mukti).

The above (mukti) is the main goal of a Sikh. Being a good human being goes along with that. If we remove the idea of a soul from the equation, then the message doesn't change. It is still Sikhi. The mind is the one that does good deeds or bad deeds. The soul is completely innocent.

I haven't read the biography of Baba Harnam Singh ji. However it is a biography, which means it was written by someone else. I'll leave it at that.

[Guest gupty]

Akal Purakh is Dharam Raj. Karma is a part of the natural law of the universe. God has put this system in place. Appeh Beejh Appeh hi Kaho. What you so, so you shall reap. In the end, you choose your path and the outcome is given accordingly.

The different khands are levels of consciousness. They exist in your mind. Through meditation and good deeds, you elevate your mind until you achieve a state of bliss called Sach Khand. This is our liberation (mukti).

The above (mukti) is the main goal of a Sikh. Being a good human being goes along with that. If we remove the idea of a soul from the equation, then the message doesn't change. It is still Sikhi. The mind is the one that does good deeds or bad deeds. The soul is completely innocent.

I haven't read the biography of Baba Harnam Singh ji. However it is a biography, which means it was written by someone else. I'll leave it at that.

Finally someone I can agree with, thanks for reaffirming my thoughts that us Sikhs can think logically and not just blindly spew what we think is right.

[Singh23]

Akal Purakh is Dharam Raj. Karma is a part of the natural law of the universe. God has put this system in place. Appeh Beejh Appeh hi Kaho. What you sow, so you shall reap. In the end, you choose your path and the outcome is given accordingly.

The different khands are levels of consciousness. They exist in your mind. Through meditation and good deeds, you elevate your mind until you achieve a state of bliss called Sach Khand. This is our liberation (mukti).

The above (mukti) is the main goal of a Sikh. Being a good human being goes along with that. If we remove the idea of a soul from the equation, then the message doesn't change. It is still Sikhi. The mind is the one that does good deeds or bad deeds. The soul is completely innocent.

I haven't read the biography of Baba Harnam Singh ji. However it is a biography, which means it was written by someone else. I'll leave it at that.

As to the authenticity of the biography, It was written by Sant Baba Seva Singh Ji Rampur Khere Wale.

Chaloh veerjee, your are set on your views and I on mine.

As long as we believe in Guru Granth Sahib as Guru and try to follow Gurbani I don't see any harm in our impasse. Because if we agree Gurbani is the ultimate protector, whether pooths/preths exist, we are both right.

Hopefully we can agree on this