Alan Watts on being God.

[N30S1NGH]

Does the mind or individual jev atma retain its individuality after merging with waheguru?

Answer- At final stage( Kaival Mukhti) - No there is no ego or sense of individuality, no mind, no ego even subtle form, no desires, no thoughts..

Mukhti is broken into of five types.. four are sargun mukhti listed in gurbani tukhs below.

chaar mukath chaarai sidhh mil kai dhooleh prabh kee saran pariou ||
I have obtained the four kinds of liberation, and the four miraculous spiritual powers, in the Sanctuary of God, my Husband Lord.

mukath bhaeiou chouhoo(n) jug jaaniou jas keerath maathhai shhathra dhhariou ||1||
I am liberated, and famous throughout the four ages; the canopy of praise and fame waves over my head. ||1|| Ang- 1105


1.Salokya Mukhti- in which the devotee gains a place in the realm of your ishatdev or attainment of the salok given by our ishatdev as you mentioned.
2. Sarupya Mukhti – in which devotee obtains heaven and same bodily qualities as Sargun Vahiguroo (avtar , isher or deity roop)
3. Samipya Mukhti- leads not only to divine virtues but a god (isher/sargun) god like form.
4. Saujya mukhti- There is unity through immersion without losing one's own identity -Fish(Bhagat) in a ocean.

Bhramgyan/Kaival Mukhti (Ultimate form of Mukhti)- No distinction as there is no perception of individuality of being-fish/bhagat in a ocean, its only ocean - Supreme Consciousness Awareness Bliss - bhramgyan- self realization of real self/nirgun saroop..!!

Out of these four sargun mukhti. Fourth one is baikhunt form (physical sachkhand) where gursikhs who are sargun upasakhs stays there without loosing their identity like fish with its individuality in the ocean and getting anand...They retain their individuality as there is subtle finer layers of dualism/ego- until they get full bhramgyan (full nirgun and sargun ekta) -bhramgyan of their real self-paratama-Vahiguroo.!!

Gurbani supports meta reality based on perception/devotion of individual. Sachkhand in form of baikhunt(subtle realm) is sargun shuksham roop perceived by sargun upasakh in Sikhi, but actual ultimate form of sachkhand is kaival mukhti- bhramgyan avastha- sarabvypak..!!.

--

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/71866-life-after-death/

http://www.tapoban.org/forum/read.php?1,4508

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/68495-nirvkaalaap-saamadhi/

[MiddxSingh]

Perhaps more accurate description of bhramgyani is to say there is no indivuality left (haume) but the soul is still there. The drop doesn't actually dissapear in the ocean it's still there but completely lost and absorbed in the ocean. The soul doesn't "die" more like the ego dies and the drop in ocean like soul is still aware and fully in bliss. Think about it, if vaheguru is aware and in bliss, then the one who has mearged in him must also be aware and in bliss of vaheguru! Any gursikh/mahapurash who says different about their experience may be experiencing something of a lower level i.e. "sunn" as descirbed in hinudism.

[scali]

Does the mind or individual jev atma retain its individuality after merging with waheguru?

This is for all who die not just selected people, first you realize you are not body, you are not mind, you are even individual soul (mergence with GOD/unity) then you come out of mergence regain your limited sense of personality and plan your path in spiritual plane, after mapping your journey in spiritual plane you come to the physical plane. You want to seem to set the bar up higher for your next experience of your conscious journey back to GOD. In spiritual plane you are very aware of your true identity of soul/GOD. All exist in now present since GOD is timeless and all exist in GOD time and space are an illusion.

[N30S1NGH]

Middx Singh, we are playing with semantics really. Soul is one according to gurmat sidhant- ek jot, sarab jot, ikongkar... as long as there is a perception of individual soul/ individuality soul/ ego (this is my soul and thats vahiguroo soul) - there is dualism/suble forms of dualism and on top of that if one wraps their head around it then jiv is devoid of gurmat bhramgyan. Bhramgyan definition is clearly defined in gurbani..so we should go by that...if you want to be upasakh of sargun- Saujya mukhti (popular in hindu vaishnav traditions) you are more than welcome but understanding and realization of gurmat bhramgyan comes after guru's full grace one cannot have pre conceived notions/get hooked on certain pre conceived perceptions/reference points in the journey.... there is no individuality dualistic soul in it there is only jot and which is jot of nirankar...anyway deep layers of adhaytam are best experienced as no point talking about it intellectually..!!..anyway i must retire from this thread now..will leave readers decide for themselves..may be consciouness- member of this forum can explain better...!!

[MiddxSingh]

Oh N30Singh! This is not Gurmat form of Prema Bhagti and Guru Sahib in Gurbani can never sanction such an Anti-Gurmat principle. This one soul thinking is akin to vedant philosophy of “I am god”. The supreme gurmat philosophy is different. As per gurbani there is One Supreme Lord who has given birth to countless souls, each jeevatma has come forth from the supreme One’s light, and the Lord is in all hearts, this is how we are jot saroop. We are all made of the same clay, but if a tiny piece of clay were to say I am source from where all the clay is, that would be totally wrong right?

gur prswdI ieku ndrI AwieAw hau siqgur ivthu vqwieAw jIau ]3]

gur parasaadhee eik nadharee aaeiaa ho sathigur vittahu vathaaeiaa jeeo |3|

By Guru's Grace, I have come to see the One. I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||3||

Now where does Satguru ji come into all this with the vedant philosophy, where supposedly this whole time the soul was god ?

Sri Jap ji sahib pauri which talks about karam khand and sackhand:

iqQY Bgq vsih ky loA ]

thithai bhagath vasehi kae loa |

The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

If there is only one soul that exists then why does gurbani say the one lord is the MASTER of all these beings?

swcw swhbu eyku qU hoir jIAw kyqy loA ]3]

saachaa saahab eaek thoo hor jeeaa kaethae loa |3|

You are the One True Lord and Master of all the other beings, of so many worlds. ||3||

MY essence merges into God’s essence, so basically soul merges into the supreme soul, not “the soul realises it was actually god all this” time vedant vichaar:

eykY kink Aink Bwiq swjI bhu prkwr rcwieE ]

eaekai kanik anik bhaath saajee bahu parakaar rachaaeiou |

The same gold is fashioned into various articles; just so, the Lord has made the many patterns of the creation.

khu nwnk Brmu guir KoeI hY iev qqY qqu imlwieE ]4]2]123]

kahu naanak bharam gur khoee hai eiv thathai thath milaaeiou |4|2|123|

Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt; in this way, my essence merges into God's essence. ||4||2||123||

The fact that two are mentioned i.e. Vaheguru and the Jeev proves that the Jeev is not Vaheguru. This Shabad talks about the merger between Vaheguru and the Jeev. It does not say that the Jeev is Vaheguru:

qohI mohI mohI qohI AMqru kYsw ]

thohee mohee mohee thohee anthar kaisaa |

You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us?

knk kitk jl qrMg jYsw ]1]

kanak kattik jal tharang jaisaa |1|

We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1||

jau pY hm n pwp krMqw Ahy Anµqw ]

jo pai ham n paap karanthaa ahae ananthaa |

If I did not commit any sins, O Infinite Lord,

piqq pwvn nwmu kYsy huMqw ]1] rhwau ]

pathith paavan naam kaisae hunthaa |1| rehaao |

how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause||

[MiddxSingh]

Another problem with this vedant type philopshy of yours is that it goes against the principle of:

jh dyKw qh eyku qU AMqu n pwrwvwru ]

jeh dhaekhaa theh eaek thoo anth n paaraavaar |

Wherever I look, there I see You, Lord; You have no end or limitation.

Vaheguru has no limit or end that means the level of brahmgyan too must have no limit. With your definition of the highest avastha that there is no drop, the soul is the ocean like god violates this sikhi principle of vaheguru and his brahmgyan having no end/limit. Also if this is the highest avastha it then fails to explain how guru sahib comes into the equation. A brahmgyani cannot be equal to guru sahib but your theory suggests the soul realises it was always god.

For now let us leave the vichaar of mahapurakhs/bhai sahibs/ gurmukhs as they all had different views, some heavily influenced by vedant and some not and this could end up into a childish argument over which gurmukh mahapursh is better or has more kmayee etc.

So I’m sure even you will not argue with Guru Gobind Singh. However you still may stubbornly hold onto these vedant views. My main hope is sangat realises the truth and for now leave out vichaar of gurmukhs/mahapurakhs but listen directly to Guru Gobind Singh ji. Guru Gobind Singh before being given status of Satguru by Vaheguru was pooran next level brahmgyani, as dusth daman, totally one and very deeply merged with the lord. Please ponder on these tuks very carefully from dasam granth written by Guru Gobind Singh jee himself in bachitar natak (also this dasam bani like bani from guru granth sahib also proves founders of other religions including devtas did not reach vaheguru as you have failed to humbly accept many times in previous online discussions – but that’s another topic):

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥
There I was absorbed in deep meditation on the Primal Power, the Supreme KAL.2.

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਿਸਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥
In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord.

ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਮੁਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਜੋਗ ਸਾਧਨਾ ਸਾਧਾ ॥੩॥
My parents also meditated for the union with the Incomprehensible Lord and performed many types of disciplines for union.3.

ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਕਰੀ ਅਲਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਾ ॥
The service that they rendered the Incomprehensible Lord, caused the pleasure of the Supreme Guru

ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਬ ਆਇਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਆ ॥੪॥
When the Lord ordered me, I was born in this Iron age.4.

ਚਿਤ ਨ ਭਯੋ ਹਮਰੋ ਆਵਨ ਕਹਿ ॥ ਚੁਭੀ ਰਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਚਰਨਨ ਮਹਿ ॥
I had no desire to come, because I was totally absorbed in devotion for the Holy feet of the Lord.

ਜਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਿਹ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੫॥
But the Lord made me understand His Will and sent me in this world with the following words.5.

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ਇਸ ਕੀਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ॥
The Words of the Non-temporal Lord to this insect:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
CHAUPAI

ਜਬ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ ਦਈਤ ਰਚੇ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੁਖਦਾਈ ॥
When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas.

ਤੇ ਭੁਜ ਬਲ ਬਵਰੇ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਏ ॥ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਰਹਿ ਗਏ ॥੬॥
Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥
I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥
They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥
Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥
Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥
Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥
But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9.

ਪਰਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥
Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara.

ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥
Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10.

ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.

ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥
Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥
All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥
They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12

ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥
When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

[MiddxSingh]

Just jumping ahead, sangat ji please read the whole of this chapter of bachitar natak bani, it’s so amazing and shows how founders of other religions were inferior and did not fully please Akal purakh Vaheguru. We are taught to respect and not insult other religions but this doesn’t mean we should not proudly say guru sahib’s sikhi is the greatest! There is not need to be politically correct saying this!

Anyways I’m jumping onto relevant tuks relating to the topic that has been discussed by myself and n30singh:

ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਹਰਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨੮॥
When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28.

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ॥
The Word of the Non-Temporal Lord:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਮੈ ਅਪਨਾ ਸੁਤ ਤੋਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ॥ ਪੰਥ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਕਰਬੇ ਕਹੁ ਸਾਜਾ ॥
I have adopted you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the path (Panth).

ਜਾਹਿ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਚਲਾਇ ॥ ਕਬੁਧਿ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਲੋਕ ਹਟਾਇ ॥੨੯॥
You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and cause people to retrace their steps from evil actions".29.

ਕਬਿਬਾਚ ॥
The World of the Poet:

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
DOHRA

ਠਾਢ ਭਯੋ ਮੈ ਜੋਰਿ ਕਰ ਬਚਨ ਕਹਾ ਸਿਰ ਨਿਆਇ ॥
I stood up with folded hands and bowing down my head, I said:

ਪੰਥ ਚਲੈ ਤਬ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਜਬ ਤੁਮ ਕਰਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੩੦॥
The path (Panth) shall prevail only in the world, with THY ASSISTANCE."30.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
CHAUPI

ਇਹ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੋਹਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਬ ਮੈ ਜਗਤਿ ਜਨਮ ਧਰਿ ਆਯੋ ॥
For this reason the Lord sent me and I was born in this world.

ਜਿਮ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੀ ਇਨੈ ਤਿਮ ਕਹਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕਿਸੂ ਤੇ ਬੈਰ ਨ ਗਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੧॥
Whatever the Lord said, I am repeating the same unto you, I do not bear enmity with anyone.31.

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥
Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.

ਮੋ ਕੌ ਦਾਸ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਨੋ ॥ ਯਾ ਮੈ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥੩੨॥
Consider me as His servant and do not think of any difference between me and the Lord.32.

ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਆਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥
I am the servant of the Supreme Purusha and hath come to see the Sport of the world.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਸੋ ਕਹਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਲੋਕ ਤੇ ਮੋਨਿ ਨ ਰਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੩॥
Whatever the Lord of the world said, I say the same unto you, I cannot remain silent in this abode of death.33.

[N30S1NGH]

Oh N30Singh! This is not Gurmat form of Prema Bhagti and Guru Sahib in Gurbani can never sanction such an Anti-Gurmat principle. This one soul thinking is akin to vedant philosophy of “I am god”. The supreme gurmat philosophy is different. As per gurbani there is One Supreme Lord who has given birth to countless souls, each jeevatma has come forth from the supreme One’s light, and the Lord is in all hearts, this is how we are jot saroop. We are all made of the same clay, but if a tiny piece of clay were to say I am source from where all the clay is, that would be totally wrong right?

Bare with me singh, this may be deep and complex discussion for me as its hard to put it in to words..i have just done ardas to maharaj to grant me kirpa to give me chance discuss deep layers of gurmat (sargun and nirgun)..without his grace..its not possible.

First of all Gurmat is not raw form of advait vedant philospoly but rather gurmat have its own advait- non dualism sargun-bhagti and nirgun-gyan blended beautifully

~ ~ Sargun Nirgun intertwined with each other into Ik0ngkar ~~

As i already mentioned in gurmat - bhagti, shabad surat, gyan aspect are blended with each other and gurbani talks about bhagti, shabad surat and gyan aspect. Both bhagti and gyan sadhana are accepted in Gurmat, below gurbani tuk should seal regarding different sadhanas.

ਬਿਸਨੁਪਦ ਪੁੰਨੀਆ ਗੀਤ ਸਾਨੀ ਤਰਹ ਦੂਜੀ ॥

ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਰੂਪ ਹਰੀ ਕੇ, ਉਪਾਸਨ ਭਗਤਨ ਕੋ ਅਤਿ ਨੀਕੋ ॥

The Sargun and Nirgun are two forms of Hari, for devotes these two types of worship are acceptable

ਭਗਤਿ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਗਯਾਨੀ ਭਗਤਾ, ਉਪਾਸਕ ਉਭਯ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਕੋ ॥

Bhagat = Sargun da upashak, Gyani = Nirgun da upashak, both of these two types of devotes are Pareshvar's shardaloo's (faithful)

(page 423, vol 2 of the sarbloh granth tika)

From gyan aspect, nothing is crystal clear truth- sat than there is one nirgun jot nothing else as gurbani says -

Zeman zaman kai bhikai samasat ek jot hai

na ghat hai n badh hai na ghat badh hot hai ||

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਆਗ ਤੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਆਗ ਉਠੈ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਫੇਰਿ ਆਗ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

jaisae eaek aag thae kanookaa kott aag out(h)ae niaarae niaarae hue kai faer aag mai milaahi(n)agae ||

As from a big fire, millions of sparks of fire arise, they get scattered and again they merge in the same fire.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਤੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਪੂਰਤ ਹੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਕੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਫੇਰ ਧੂਰਿ ਹੀ ਸਮਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

jaisae eaek dhhoor thae anaek dhhoor poorath hai dhhoor kae kanookaa faer dhhoor hee samaahi(n)agae ||

As from a heap that consists of myriads of dust particles, those dust bits disperse and arise above and then those dust particles merge in the same dust.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਨਦ ਤੇ ਤੰਰਗ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਜਤ ਹੈਂ ਪਾਨਿ ਕੇ ਤਰੰਗ ਸਬੈ ਪਾਨਿ ਹੀ ਕਹਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

jaisae eaek nadh thae tha(n)rag kott oupajath hai(n) paan kae tha(n)rag sabai paan heekehaahi(n)agae ||

As from a river millions of waves of water are produced and these watery waves merge with water and will still be called as water.

qYsy ibs rup qy ABUq BUq pRgt huie qwhI qy aupj sbY qwhI mY smwihNgy ] 17]87]

thaisae bis rup thae abhooth bhooth pragatt hue thaahee thae oupaj sabai thaaheemai samaahi(n)agae || 17||87||

As both the animate (sentient beings) and inanimate (non-sentient objects) are manifested from the Universal Lord. They arise from Him and shall merge again in their primal source.(17)(87)

And sri guru gobind singh ji himself also gave us updesh to worship one jot which resides in all- non dual Ik0ngkar.

gur prswdI ieku ndrI AwieAw hau siqgur ivthu vqwieAw jIau ]3]

gur parasaadhee eik nadharee aaeiaa ho sathigur vittahu vathaaeiaa jeeo |3|

By Guru's Grace, I have come to see the One. I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. ||3||

Now where does Satguru ji come into all this with the vedant philosophy, where supposedly this whole time the soul was god ?

Sri Jap ji sahib pauri which talks about karam khand and sackhand:

iqQY Bgq vsih ky loA ]

thithai bhagath vasehi kae loa |

The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

You won't find bhramgyan aspect in the above gurbani tuks as its talking from bhagti aspect- describing bhagats of different stages, at different spiritual development stages/khands and talking about its journey leading to one

If there is only one soul that exists then why does gurbani say the one lord is the MASTER of all these beings?

swcw swhbu eyku qU hoir jIAw kyqy loA ]3]

saachaa saahab eaek thoo hor jeeaa kaethae loa |3|

You are the One True Lord and Master of all the other beings, of so many worlds. ||3|

No conflict there- Vahiguroo or real self(paratma ek jot) is master of all beings, the reason it says all other beings-an distinction made because from preceptor- beings themselves have created this "veil of ego" * seperation from Vahiguroo when they were affected by maya..Hence guru maharaj is giving updesh or knocking some sense to all being- that true lord is master of your body, mind, ego and perception of "jiv" atma...the reason i say perception of jiv atma is because of ego, separate perception of jiv was created from there- subtle body took birth, karams took birth, antish karan (man, chit, budh, ahankar) took birth so on and so forth.

*Kiv sachyaara hoyeeye, Kiv kudey tutey paal

Hukum rajai chalna, Nanak likhya naal

MY essence merges into God’s essence, so basically soul merges into the supreme soul, not “the soul realises it was actually god all this” time vedant vichaar:

eykY kink Aink Bwiq swjI bhu prkwr rcwieE ]

eaekai kanik anik bhaath saajee bahu parakaar rachaaeiou |

The same gold is fashioned into various articles; just so, the Lord has made the many patterns of the creation.

khu nwnk Brmu guir KoeI hY iev qqY qqu imlwieE ]4]2]123]

kahu naanak bharam gur khoee hai eiv thathai thath milaaeiou |4|2|123|

Says Nanak, the Guru has dispelled my doubt; in this way, my essence merges into God's essence. ||4||2||123||

Satguru ji is talking about or unfolding itself(nirgun to sargun) into bhagti aspect- process of bhagti spritual development starting from two, ending at one..not describing explictly nature of gyan aspect - realizing it was jot all along.

Sargun and Nirgun are one, its never ending flow of folding and unfolding itself based on individual perception or consciouness. From outsider, this process seems dual but in real essence of sikhi its not, its non dual Ik0ngkar.

The fact that two are mentioned i.e. Vaheguru and the Jeev proves that the Jeev is not Vaheguru. This Shabad talks about the merger between Vaheguru and the Jeev. It does not say that the Jeev is Vaheguru:

qohI mohI mohI qohI AMqru kYsw ]

thohee mohee mohee thohee anthar kaisaa |

You are me, and I am You-what is the difference between us?

knk kitk jl qrMg jYsw ]1]

kanak kattik jal tharang jaisaa |1|

We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1||

jau pY hm n pwp krMqw Ahy Anµqw ]

jo pai ham n paap karanthaa ahae ananthaa |

If I did not commit any sins, O Infinite Lord,

piqq pwvn nwmu kYsy huMqw ]1] rhwau ]

pathith paavan naam kaisae hunthaa |1| rehaao |

how would You have acquired the name, 'Redeemer of sinners'? ||1||Pause||

Bhagat was sargun upsakh, initially started from two like most of bhagats so their perception prior to self realization was of two. Bhagat ji is talking about current state and his journey.

Let do vichar about bhagat ji in above state..bhagat ji has unfolded themselves in sargun and reciting this maha vak for all. They were in sehaj jevan mukht avastha in its dual consciousness recited the tuk above- one is of gyan perception of one real self/perceiving one and other is of worldly chores, for devotion for bhagti seeing two doing upma of nirankar which is also his self as well to inspire others on the path.

But when one goes in gyan samadhi totally there is no coming back everything (bhagats perception, thoughts, desire, devotions) fold itself back into nirgun-One Ikongkar, that gyan samadhi is also turiya and turiya atit avastha..gurbani talks about turiya avastha and talks about how turiya/bhramgyani is above karams (be good or bad).

As i said earlier from outsider we may see process of sargun and nirgun unfolding folding itself as two but from bhramgyani aspect- both bhagti(sargun) and gyan(nirgun) is one as they don't see disctincation between sargun and nirgun flow of supreme consciouness. While they are living in a body they are connected with the flow of sargun and nirgun- unfolding itself and have dual consciouness/jevan mukht/sehaj avastha- bhagti and gyan, but after they leave their body/upon leaving their body they loose all everyhing perception , body, mind, consciously being aware as they are folded back in nirgun jot/paratma.

Also If bhagat perception is of returning back to real self and origin and thats it- thats what it will happen upon kirpa and they will get kirpa of bhramgyan, if it ones wants to enjoy bhagti or four sargun mukhti listed in the above thread based on subtle dualism/ego (fish in water) even after they leave their body- thats what will happen upon grace until one realize their real self- bhramgyan.

There was two- jiv and vahiguroo because intially there was a perception of two and bhagat ji is giving updesh both from bhagti and gyan aspect to further reiterates its only one- tu mohi mohi tu after self realization and then creates also distinction when his consciousness came back to sargun flow while living in the body hence We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves. ||1||.

This unfolding and folding play of sargun and nirgun continues until there is body.

Sant baba gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale does amazing gurbani katha of 21 asthpadi of sukhmani sahib(essence of sikh theology along with mool mantra) which he explained according to gurbani during bhramgyan parloa (also known as bedah mukht) - bhramgyani upon leaving its body- the perception, individuality, thoughts, desires, subtle ego-shud satogun, leaving reference point dasam dwara or any mental concepts, shabad) destory/fold itself into nirgun/gyan-Ikongkar (Ek Jot).

Another problem with this vedant type philopshy of yours is that it goes against the principle of, However you still may stubbornly hold onto these vedant views.

First of all there is no my vedant type philosophy at the end there is only gurmat advait (intertwin sargun and nirgun never ending ik0ngkar flow), rest is all history- vedant, vaishavanism, Protestantism/anglican/evangelical/teja singhism all put together !!!!

The problem with you and others who accuse sampardaie of vedant influence is that you guys lack any depth of understanding of gurmat- sargun and nirgun intertwin relationship/theology to begin with, none of your books you read talks about sargun and nirgun theological concept of Gurmat.

Another problem with this vedant type philopshy of yours is that it goes against the principle of,

jh dyKw qh eyku qU AMqu n pwrwvwru ]

jeh dhaekhaa theh eaek thoo anth n paaraavaar |

Wherever I look, there I see You, Lord; You have no end or limitation.

Again no conflict there, as its meant for and to be looked at from bhagti (sargun) aspect (having perception of two fish in the water). Both bhagti and gyan aspect in gurmat are not in conflict in each other but rather should be seen as play from bhagat (hide and seek) - unfolding itself and folding back and also updesh or indication for others as development stages and in this case both bhagti and gyan aspect in gurmat agrees there is no end or limitation of real self/lord.

Vaheguru has no limit or end that means the level of brahmgyan too must have no limit. With your definition of the highest avastha that there is no drop, the soul is the ocean like god violates this sikhi principle of vaheguru and his brahmgyan having no end/limit. Also if this is the highest avastha it then fails to explain how guru sahib comes into the equation. A brahmgyani cannot be equal to guru sahib but your theory suggests the soul realises it was always god.

It starts with perception of drop- soul and supreme soul- ocean ends with supreme soul as one realize its real self. There are plenty of examples in gurbani- Man tu jot saroop hai apna mool paichain, "hirdaie gyan", about non dualism, dualism being disease, recognize your real self, turiya, samadhi, bhramgyan, gyan of atma self, sakhi, sargun, nirgun, also look up also in sri dasam and sarbloh granth.

So I’m sure even you will not argue with Guru Gobind Singh. However you still may stubbornly hold onto these vedant views. My main hope is sangat realises the truth and for now leave out vichaar of gurmukhs/mahapurakhs but listen directly to Guru Gobind Singh ji. Guru Gobind Singh before being given status of Satguru by Vaheguru was pooran next level brahmgyani, as dusth daman, totally one and very deeply merged with the lord.

Guru Maharaj is Sargun nirgun avtar of akaal purkh, so they are writing in sargun form-they were in deep transcedental meditation in nirgun. They were one i.e- folded totally in nirgun until they (nirgun) transcendent/immanent itself into sargun (two) again to take part in the play. This does not prove there is two soul but prove rather all along there has been always ek jot(sargun and nirgun unfolding and folding itself/appering/disappearing itself ) in same supreme consciousness (Ik0ngkar) ... thats where gurmat advait comes in see sargun and nirgun as one, even when there is unfolding from nirgun to sargun- bhramgyani are connected to nirgun/ real self as all along its has been one (anek hai pher bhi ek hai - jaap sahib)..!!!!!!!

[THE WARRIOR]

From a personal experience from being a former plodder rather than a follower of the Sikh religion and now an experiencer of the Buddha Dharma or just the Dharma I have been able to experience more of a “God” now from not believing in a God than when I did think I believed in a “God”. I have observed more Godly experience following The Dharma from “a people” who do not believe in a “God” than from the actions of those that believe in him but totally behaved in a manner redundant of his nature. I have understood more now about being a Sikh by not being one …..yes its all a paradox just as its meant to be!!

[MiddxSingh]

THE WARRIOR, thanks for being honest about your beliefs regarding not believing in an actual god and that your thoughts are more inline with budda dharma rather then sikhi. Sadly others, through either cleverness or ignorance, still try to say this type of thinking is sikhi, when it's clearly not.

In the end Khalsa belongs to Vaheguroo and victory belongs to the almighty Vaheguroo:

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH!