Your thoughts

[panthicunity]

ok if my leaving brings peace to your heart my veer , I will

yes my heart is full of nindya -"hamre avgun bahut bahut hain" , but i do strive for khalsa brotherhood .

[jang123]

ok if my leaving brings peace to your heart my veer , I will

yes my heart is full of nindya -"hamre avgun bahut bahut hain" , but i do strive for khalsa brotherhood .

I guess nobody should have any problems with discussions but everyone must refrain from doing nindya.

If you disagree with someone that does not give you permission write anything that is wrong and is certainly not good for yourself.

-'Ninda bhali kisi ki nahi'

[humkire]

I feel appalled at the way I am seeing this thread developing. First of all, as I stated earlier I really do not see the need for this thread to have even been started. In my life, through Guru Maharajs kirpa, I have learnt that no matter how intelligent and educated you are, you have to keep things simple and focussed, if not you will lose track along the way. I see so many saints and sakhis being quoted here for no reason at all!

A question has been asked about peoples thoughts concerning some saint praying for which apparently the 1947 partition which was meant to be earlier, to be delayed and the wish was apparently granted. There is no need to gather opinions from others when you appear to have already made up your mind that this was the case, unless the question is a preach in the disguise of a question, because you feel sufficiently inspired by this story as it fits into your acquired mindset about the nature of the proximity between God and his saints.

However, if you are a sincere seeker of the truth, then, you should never be concerned about anybody elses thoughts about this matter because as a Sikh your only concern ought to be what is the official mainstream gurmat vichar on this matter. You have been explained in the clearest of terms, that from the viewpoint of Sikh philosophy a)a Sikh has to abide in the Will or hukum of God in no uncertain terms, full stop, b) a Sikh in all humbleness must not interfere in the Will of God, and c)saintliness in Sikhism is not to be divorced from soldierness at any excuse.

Apart from that, I am not interested in any further continued attempt to prove your point, or carry on debating using examples regurgitated from the lectures of any one no matter who they are, or from Sikh history etc. All that knowledge you have acquired concerning God kow-towing to his saints etc is not relevant here . As I said earlier, this is a Sikh youth website dedicated to preaching the main principles of Sikhism, not a website dedicated to prove the passive/aggressive or sub/dom relationship between God and some saint, no matter of which religion!

Our preach on this website, has to be, that, as the first pauri of Japjee Sahib teaches, humans in order to get out of the maya matrix, need to move by the Will of God, pure and simple. Sikhi jeewan is constructed on that foundation and premise. So, if you are really sincere about sharing gurmat gyan/sidhant, then you need to be sharing with your younger brothers and sisters here, how to follow Gods hukum, how to understand it, how not to interfere with it no matter how enlightened you become, and how it helps you to get out of the matrix. Your preach should not be in the direction of using examples to show that man by becoming a saint can avert or delay the Will of God on the basis of compassion or extreme soft-heartedness!

If indeed, you other motive is to spell out the power of a saint to shake heaven and how much a saint gets loved by God, then as per gurmat sidhant there is no other gift from God to anyone that is higher than Naam and that should be your preach, full stop! Talk about how God in His extreme delight honours a saint with Naam and no one will criticise you because then you are speaking in the confines of Tat Gurmat. The ability of God to grant his saint Naam should excite and interest you more than Gods hand being twisted by some soft hearted saint!

However, my humble advice is that rather than obsess yourself with saints and their proximity to God, focus on living a very simple amritdharee Sikhi jeewan based upon, and revolving around nam, dhan and ishnan. That is where you will meet the God you so desire, not by filling your brains with long kathas from this saint, that brahmgyani etc etc, and all their nitty gritty ways of explaining gurmat sidhant from all sorts of different angles. To be honest, one day, you will realise its just adding on to clutter in your brains and only filling you with a lot of stories and opinions and ego, and knowledge acquired by listening to this and that person. You need to come to a point in your life where you surrender everything to God. Let God and Guru fill you from within, that is where you really need to be heading, if you too wish to become a saint.

The end result of listening to the katha of great gurmukhs should not that we become first class regurgitators, but that the words and lifes and examples of esteeemed ''panth de hire'' should help us to become inspired Khalsas who are sant sipahees. That is the real way to honour the great gurmukhs of our panth.

SGGS, ang 153, Guru Nanak Dev Jee says ''aap moa, man, man te janea, najar bhei, ghar, ghar te janea.'' Within this beautiful words of Gurujee is the secret of what you are really longing for, and how to get it, so rather than fill your mind with so many words from so many saints etc, just relax , let go and start focussing on swaas swaas simran. The saints you quote have done their job and gone. Now it is your turn to let go of so much mat in the mind, and instead, to learn to be quiet within, and focus on Naam. That is when your real journey will begin.

Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj did not leave Sikhi on the shoulders of a few blessed saints before Joti Jot. Rather, Gurujee blessed the institution of the Panj Pyareh to be the main hub and torch bearers of Sikhi, that would birth Sikhi from one generation to another. The ability of the Panj Pyareh to birth countless future Khalsas through Amrit Pahul is THE divine miracle that should be exciting us infinitely more than God's power to postpone some man-made calamity!

I dont get inspired by people parading, putting on display, expressing and throwing around a lot of knowledge acquired by listening to others, quoting from all sorts of great esteemed Sikhs. What inspires me is Sikhi inaction. This is not some sort of Sikh intellectual website, but a forum of expression for Sikh youths. Hence, here you should be focussing on your personal experiences as you do nitnem , path, and kirtan everyday and how you practicalise Sikhi in your personal life so other youths of your age can learn from your experience how to put Sikhi into practise in their own lifes.

That said, may Gurujee bless us all to live absolutely humbly in the Will of Good. 'tera kia mitha lageh'. And 'mitha lageh tera bhana' and 'jini pechata hukum, tinh kade na rovna'.

[N30S1NGH]

a)a Sikh has to abide in the Will or hukum of God in no uncertain terms, full stop, b) a Sikh in all humbleness must not interfere in the Will of God,

Humkire Singh Sahib Ji,

How do you reconcile many examples from sri guru granth sahib ji such as Vahiguroo Ji himself came to save honor of his bhagat- listen to his bhagat parlad when his father was torturing him and many gurbani examples of many bhagats in gurbani? No one is disputing will of God here- will of god- hakum/raza is intertwined with ardas- ardas has power...sri guru granth sahib ji have glorious examples of Vahiguroo ji listened to their bhagats/humble benti-ardas and save their honor.!!!

Ardas and will of god-hakum/raza are not on clash course but its intertwined with each other. If they are on clash course we wouldn't be doing ardas to vahiguroo ji for sarbat da bhalla as then it be just going with flow hakum/raza...!!

If someone is dying infront of me, I will do ardas and i will try to help as much i can, not simply brush him/her off under the carpet with mindset it's God's will-hakum..!! Remember its also perception how do you also reconcile bhai kahaniya ji sakhi of feeding the wounded, putting band aids on the serious wounds? How did he reconcile the hakum aspect of dharam with sarbat da bhalla?? How much was it - hakum raza and how much was it? free will- perception of seeing Vahiguroo in everyone..!!..We don't believe in protestant version of Vahiguroo sitting on a sky with stick and punishing those who interfered in his play-hakum/raza..Hakum/raza/dya/free will are intertwined concepts in Sikhi..!!

[humkire]

And now to panthicunity jee and jang 123.

First thing first, if you both are Sikhs, then this is certainly not the way to talk and interact with one another.

Panthicunity jee, if you do not agree with the opinion of some saint about when the world will end, it is not right to call a man who plenty of Sikhs have a great respect for, a clown. The basis of panthic unity is to recognise that as much as you may not personally like it, today the panth is divided into many subgroups each with their own loyalties to whoever is their mukhi or head. This influences what they believe in, and the rehat that group follows. Sometimes, as Gurbani says, you cannot win over an argument, it is better to be quiet. There are a lot of Sikhs who may not agree with the words of a saint or find it hard to interpret what they really mean. However they do not go around calling that saint a clown. Only God knows who is a real saint and who is a real clown, not you. By name calling someone from another samprada, you are making yourself an object of hatred from Sikhs who have a respect for that samprada. This does not lead to panthic unity. If you sincerely want panthic ekta then do ardas at amritvela everyday for that to happen, and ask for bibek buddhee for Khalsa Panth, and have close friendships and love for Sikhs from different sampradas so you can become a focul point of unity and love, and gursikhi bhai-chara.

I must say that putting aside what anyone has to say about the end of the world, Sikhi is about the NOW. That has always been the basis of gurmat parchar. SGGS makes it clear its Gods game to create and destroy and recreate, and it is not for us to worry about that. Our focus has to be on living as gurmukhs from second to second leaving in the hands of God, the day of either our death, or the death of this planet. Our entire focus has to be a gurmukh NOW. That will take care of yesterday and tomorow.

And Jang jee, we cannot just point our finger to the entire amount of people from another subgroup of Sikhi with whom we vehemently disagree and paint them all with the same brush. There are those who have not studied Sikhi at a dera but at a Sikh college or university, whose understanding may differ from a dera educated Sikh. However that does not mean you can look down upon them all. Sikhi does not start from thinking what you personally believe is the absolute truth and everybody else is wrong. Sikhi starts from letting go of our ego and wanting to be humble, to be willing to listen to others, and to reason out humbly with others. Gurujee can bless anybody He wants whether that person is from a dera, a missionary college, or just an ordinary Sikh who cannot even read gurmukhi. Each person comes to this world with their own karma and Gurujee knows exactly how to bless each Sikh no matter whether they are in a dera, a college, or on the antartic, or in Malaysia, Canada, Hong Kong or Amritsar, or Dubai. I understand how you felt by someone calling your mukhi a clown but its good to stay calm and instead of asking him to leave this site and get out, rather encourage him to meet you, or pm you privately, so you can explain why you love santjee so much. The person who you think is your enemy today could be your best friend tomorow if you play your cards right.

I am guessing you both are Sikh naujawans who love Sikhi deeply in your hearts and probably live in the UK. Why not pm each other privately and become friends. After all, this is a Sikh youth website where Sikh youths from different backgrounds meet and become close friends. That would be so awesome. When I was your age I loved going to Sikh youth samelans and smagams and making loads of friends from different samparadas. A gursikh who became my best friend at a Sikh samagam 30 years ago, ended up even marrying my younger sister and today they have four sons, the eldest of whom is a chartered accountant in Luxemborg who loves visiting gurdwaras in Germany, France and Switzerland.

May this little outburst between you two bring you closer to one another. I loved how one of you called the other veer, even in this quarrel.

[humkire]

N30SINGH Jee,

I am amazed how quickly you responded within minutes! to what took me a very long time to ponder on through ardas to type for your best interest in my two earlier posts! When you do that, it becomes no more a 'gursikha da vichar-dhara', but a 'bhes'. People replying in haste to each other, trying to prove a point, and that they are right, is not vichar dhara I am afraid. If someone wrote out to me in depth as I have done to you, I would deem it absolutely rude to respond off my head as quickly as I can instead of trying to reflect deeply over and over again as to the true import of that message. In your haste, you even forgot to thank me for taking very valuable time out to bother with your thread and respond to your question in a very meticulous manner! This conflicts with the impression of yourself as a blessed and learned Sikh in close contact with the sikhiya of high powered Gurmukhs. You must always have the humility to thank people who take out their time for your sake.

I seriously advice you to show more respect to what anyone replies to whatever you have to write here by demonstrating that you take your time to ponder over what is said to you. Try sleeping over things. Very regularly, I read a post by someone here, but do not respond immediately. In fact very often, I ban myself from doing that. Instead, I do antar dhyan ardas to Gurujee to ask if I need to answer or respond or just shut up! That way what comes out is not off the head, but from deep within. You do not need to get intense. The brahm gyanees you love to quote regularly, would give you exactly the same advice. To learn to be more quiet, more humble, less argumentative, less defensive, never too quick to respond, and always to be very reflective and contemplative. You are in danger of becoming an akirtghaan i.e an unappreciative hasty person who does not show true appreciation and thankfulness for what others, especially those older and more experienced than you, have to share with you to help you move further and higher in your gursikh jeewan. Learn to take in knowledge slowly so you can grasp it better. If I correctly remember, I have given you this humble advice before too.

I will repeat it again. Your objective for hanging around this forum has to go hand in hand with the objective of this forum or website. This is not a place for you to display your skills in debate or oratory or profound indepth knowledge of the various concepts of Sikhi and how they interact with one another. For that you need to write a book. Rather, this is a website where mainstream Sikh philosophy has to be explained in the clearest and simplest way possible because a lot of those who visit this site are here to learn the basics of Sikhism. I believe that is the main objective of this website, where Sikh youths can come like a sangat and learn about Sikhism , get inspired and become friends.

You do need to ask yourself why you keep running into quarrels with various people here as I have recently noticed. It is not just because you are wrong sometimes, but because you do not seem to know the art of backing off when needed and showing to others that you are willing to learn from them. It is an intensely exasperating and annoying part of your behaviour that sometimes you appear to really not want to listen to others but keep trying to prove you are right, and it can make others feel you that for all your talk, deep down you are arrogant. Knowledge breeds either arrogance or humility, take your pick.

Sikhi is also about staying in sehaj avastha not just to be in a constant fighting mode. Try to demonstrate that you are attaining sehaj avastha in your mind and heart. That will make your posts here more reflective, more contemplative and less argumentative. I say this in all sincerity for your own good, because I believe you are trying to really get close to Gurujee with all your effort for which I respect you. That is why I responded in depth to you earlier.

Now back to the issue of ardas. Firstly I hope you took in all I had to say to you in my entire two posts deeply, because through Gurus kirpa, I was trying to share with you a few nuggets of knowledge that would help you on. Now, we do know that Ardas is not just a stand alone, but the basis of, and connected to all the other aspects of Sikhi jeewan. If your preach is about the power of ardas, then title it as such, rather than dress it up in the form of a question about peoples thoughts about the power of the prayer of a certain saint to have twisted Gods arm about the timing of a cartain event!. Read a book called Ardas Shaktee by Bhai Sahib Raghbir Singh Bir if you need to understand how ardas does not, and is not meant to be in conflict with Gods Will. There are also various lectures you can read by Maskin Jee, or Gyani Maan Singh Jhaur on the topic of ardas. Bhai Sahib Bhai Veer Singh, Dr Balbir Singh and Professor Puran Singh have likewise written inspiringly on the topic of Ardas. As I said before, do not let other peoples writings clutter your brain too much into a confusing bambal pusa, but use it like medicine to inspire your soul.

When we say tere bhane sarbat da bhalla, we are not in conflict with the Will of God and that is not any excuse to justify interfering in Gods Will. In Sikhism, it is in fact Gods Will that human beings should in all humility not desire the destruction of others but rather their upliftment. This ardas helps to edify our hearts and cleanse it of hatred towards Gods creation and created beings. It puts us on a spot when our hearts get filled with anger, strife and hatred, because it helps to delete those feelings from within us.

likewise, no one is suggesting as in your own words '' Vahiguroo sitting on a sky with stick and punishing those who interfered in his play-hakum/raza'' A Sikh lives in absolute humility according to the Will of God and his ardas at any point should be reflective that, a)he trusts God to know better than him in any given situation, b)is willing to surrender that situation in Gods safe hands, c)that he trusts God is a God of love, mercy and forgiveness in that situation and d)that even if he in his own little human mind wants a certain outcome, God would override it in His is greater infinite knowledge of that situation and what is best.

Hukum, free will, reza and daya are intertwined in more ways that you can imagine and have stated but rather than let all these concepts muddle up your human brain, as I said before, dont walk or type around showing off your understanding of these concepts or their relationships. Rather use that knowledge to encourage people you come into contact with to believe in God, and to trust God, and to live in the Will of God, and to be compassionate and be in constant prayer or ardas in the presence of God always asking for others good and always asking for Naam from Gurujee. If you can keep it clutter free, then at some point all these various concepts will all merge into one another in your consciousness and spring out as Divine Life from within you, that will make you a next level gurmukh. You will be judged in heaven not for how deeply you ever intellectually understood these concepts in your short stay on earth(and got your understanding right), but rather, how you put them into practise to be a blessing to Khalsa Panth. Gurfateh.

[N30S1NGH]

Thanks for your reality check post ji. I shall self-reflect on this and apply it accordingly on my future post to ensure it does not lack proper gursikh etiquette.

[Only five]

Our preach on this website, has to be, that, as the first pauri of Japjee Sahib teaches, humans in order to get out of the maya matrix, need to move by the Will of God, pure and simple. Sikhi jeewan is constructed on that foundation and premise. So, if you are really sincere about sharing gurmat gyan/sidhant, then you need to be sharing with your younger brothers and sisters here, how to follow Gods hukum, how to understand it, how not to interfere with it no matter how enlightened you become, and how it helps you to get out of the matrix. Your preach should not be in the direction of using examples to show that man by becoming a saint can avert or delay the Will of God on the basis of compassion or extreme soft-heartedness!

I'm glad you made the bolded point. This speaks volumes because many young viewers would see the Saint's act as a way to perform miracles. However Satguru took the world out of this miracle chasing ways. On one hand we tell young SIkhs to accept Hukam, whether you thinks it's good or bad, and then turn around and say it's alright to use miracles and change the bad into good. Although what actually happened is clear to individuals that are much more learned in Sikhi, but the youth will be very much confused on this topic. So it is best to leave this topic alone.

In the past I have made many attempts to explain Hukam, but I have always come up short. Hukam can't be explained in full detail as words can't explain Hukam of Maharaj. Hukam of Maharaj can only be understood by experience. I remember my Sikh teachers telling me at a young age that Hukam of Maharaj meant to follow Guru Sahib and don't do bad. However as with more contemplation it became clear Hukam of Maharaj is greater than this.

There are all sorts of students on here, but majority of the sangat is in the category of understanding the basic explanation of Hukam of Maharaj. For that such topics do need to stay out of this discussion board. Instead of bringing them closer to Sikhi, they rebel and think Sikhs are just like the rest, who perform miracles when they want to change events in the world.

[luckysingh99]

The problem with a lot of the younger new sikhs is that they find it quite a task to get their head around hukam and free will.

They will question what falls under the banner of hukam and what falls under free-will????

Free-will is the capability given to us to help us pave the path in front.

What we have to remember is that we can maximise what 'we want' to happen with our free will, but at the end ONLY the Hukam will dominate.

It is probably easier to imagine our limited free will coming under the banner of Hukam. Therefore it is the divine will of Hukam that actually governs our free-will. We may think that we are governing and controlling it, but in effect only the Lord does. It is again another play of the maya illusion where our haumai comes in. We may think me, me, it's me doing it,- BUT it is ALL HIM.

[N30S1NGH]

I won't provide any supplement regarding your post as i still have to grasp all that in and do further research its a deep topic i will leave up to intellectuals including bijla singh ji here.

But what i do want to point out without getting into too much technicalities discussion over this (as i put faith higher than theological concepts in paper), its my inner faith- i truly believe with full certainty- Vahiguroo listens to his bhagat (as gurbani live example of bhagat parhlad), as such I have no problems believing the sakhi of baba nand singh ji, or even great saints of that time bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji doing akhand patt and followed by ardas to free the ghost spirit in unditya duniya but as you righly put it "The ability of God to grant his saint Naam should excite and interest you more than Gods hand being twisted by some soft hearted saint!" Yes i agree but listening to sakhi of vahiguroo listening to bhagat does not mean one does not get excited by naam and naam kamiya of these great saints... above great scholars/gurmukhs listed in your post have limitations as you are reading someone else experience and as you rightly pointed earlier- each one of us expereince divine differently and perceive it differently, all that being said- when you read directly from gurbani- you don't need middle person- sometimes gurbani tuks hits you and by maharaj apar kirpa one gets to connect their human consciousness directly connected with gurbani- supreme consciousness, when that happens it invokes highly devotional stream of feeling along with anubhav gyan of that very tuk which cannot be described- this is it for me: Har jug jug bhagt upaya peej rakhda aya ram raje harnaksh dusht har mariya prehlad tarya || along with many gurbani pankitis including sidhant of Chaupi sahib - asking for protection including intertwine relationship with hakum/raza.

Please continue forward with this discussion, I promise I be vivid listener..no more posting from me on this topic