Your thoughts

[13Mirch]

I cannot see the video. Can anyone please repost it with a youtube link?

[Only five]

The problem with a lot of the younger new sikhs is that they find it quite a task to get their head around hukam and free will.

They will question what falls under the banner of hukam and what falls under free-will????

Free-will is the capability given to us to help us pave the path in front.

What we have to remember is that we can maximise what 'we want' to happen with our free will, but at the end ONLY the Hukam will dominate.

It is probably easier to imagine our limited free will coming under the banner of Hukam. Therefore it is the divine will of Hukam that actually governs our free-will. We may think that we are governing and controlling it, but in effect only the Lord does. It is again another play of the maya illusion where our haumai comes in. We may think me, me, it's me doing it,- BUT it is ALL HIM.

Where does free-will fit into the concept of Gurmat and Manmat? or where does Gurmat and Manmat fit into the concept of free-will. Also what about determinism and free-will?

[luckysingh99]

Where does free-will fit into the concept of Gurmat and Manmat? or where does Gurmat and Manmat fit into the concept of free-will. Also what about determinism and free-will?

I'm not too sure exactly what you mean ?

Free-will is the capablilty that is given to you to help pave your conduct with the way you choose.

This can be gurmat or manmat according to your steps.

If it doesn't sound right or you don't think so, then please explain.

[Only five]

I'm not too sure exactly what you mean ?

Free-will is the capablilty that is given to you to help pave your conduct with the way you choose.

This can be gurmat or manmat according to your steps.

If it doesn't sound right or you don't think so, then please explain.

Well free-will in its true sense would mean that there is no higher being controlling anything. Before digesting that point, lets look at the free-will of a human. For us to say a human can act by free-will, we would have to say no force whatsoever can influence them in anyway possible. So the concept of good or bad, moral or immoral can only exist if the person has made up his own understanding of these concepts. Each person is capable of their own ability to understand a concept to a certain degree. If free-will existed, then how come the ability to understand concepts are limited. This simply shows other forces are causing the person to be lacking in understanding. Be it social factors, or psychological factors. Humans make decision to the best of their ability, which is not free at all.

Look up determinism and you will see that this concept is a much better representation of what is going on in this world, where no such thing as free-will exist; cause and effect is taking place (karma as Sikhs will say) However take the most intelligent being in the world and apply the same as i did above. The outcome will be the same because the person's intelligence will not be able to understand or grasp the spiritual world (for spirituality you need a higher being like Satguru). If the person is considered to be the most intelligent and also has all understanding of the spiritual world then this person is no other than Satguru himself. Then we describe this as Hukam.

[luckysingh99]

Well free-will in its true sense would mean that there is no higher being controlling anything.

The above is not what I was saying. I was still saying that hukam is the real overall governer and controller, yet a human may feel like they are in control!

[Only five]

Well free-will in its true sense would mean that there is no higher being controlling anything.

The above is not what I was saying. I was still saying that hukam is the real overall governer and controller, yet a human may feel like they are in control!

I was commenting on when u said:

Free-will is the capablilty that is given to you to help pave your conduct with the way you choose

[luckysingh99]

Yes, it is the capabilitiy in our own hands to decide the next steps infront of us.

Let's say you are walking on your way to work and you see an old man struggling to change his car tire.

You have the choice to go and help kindly, whilst knowing you will be late for work OR you can ignore or say something like 'i'm in a hurry- i'm sorry'

This is the free will that you have to make the choice. The outcome will be different for each choice in terms of good or bad karma for instance.

But the actual factor that governs your ability and gives you the room to manouvre is the 'HUKAM'.

I would say that all actions and decisions, no matter who makes them, they ALL come under the umbrella of Hukam.

I am NOT in any way saying that your free will can overide or oppose hukam, far from it.

It's just that it is what helps pave the way for future steps and encounters.

I hope you can see what I mean.

[Sat1176]

Some really wise and mature comments made by Humkire. Think we can all take something away from his feedback.

Many thanks.

[kullykhalsa]

as much as your comments do make sense humkire i have to disagree with your POV, for me this site is to be used for discussion,debates etc yes your correct that if you follow hukam thats all thats needed nice and simple but the answer to this would be theres a difference between following hukam because you have been told its the right thing and following hukam as second nature because you want to do paat/seva all the time! all humans are born with a thirst for knowledge if we were just to follow hukam in a generation or so kids in sikhi wouldnt ask questions, might blindly follow a path (whether wrong/right), being able to answer questions put forward by others all can be gained here!

[humkire]

kullykhalsa Jee,

A debate is usually about two different parties trying to out do each other intellectually. In gurmat, two Sikhs who love each other do not debate and put each other down. Rather, they sit and each contribute to the understanding of an issue as to what Guru would mean in a particular teaching. This is what is called gurmat soch vichar dhara and the way we should teach those who visit this forum to reason out things between themselves. In SGGS there are instances where Guru jee themselves put forward a series of questions and then set out logical answers to them. To avoid the frequent quarrels which start displaying hatred regularly on this site, we need to learn to discuss this not competitively but cooperately. That is my point. Then this will become a very inspiring website where whoever reads through a thread of a discussion will get the vibe that it is a family of God and Guru loving Sikhs, drawn from different geographical locations, different sampradas and different environmental setttings, coming together as a miniature version of a united khalsa panth to work together to understand Sikhi. That has to be our aim, not some manmatiya style debates that so often lead to disunity and ugly internet wars.

As to the issue of Hukum, in gurmat, Hukum does not exist to make a person submissive and lose their ability to question and inquire. Rather the complete opposite! God's hukum just like God Himself, stares at you anywhere and everywhere you look, once your eyes open. It is this Hukum that you start seeing all within and around you. It is this Hukum that makes you want to know more about it and lights up and awakens your deepest thinking facilities, and switches you on to start seeing and comprehending beyond the normal human ability. I will expand on this another time if required but suffice to say, the Hukum of God stirs you to want to learn, and that is the premise where the journey of a Sikh begins as a seeker, a student or shisya. The Hukum of God does not shut your eyes and makes you a subservient slave, rather the Hukum of God opens your eyes and makes you a saint soldier. The Hukum of God opens you to the mysteries of God. SGGS ''KAHO NANAK JINH HUKUM PECHATA, PRABH SAHIB KA TINH BHEDH JATA.

Sikhi is not meant to end up as an intellectually bogging exercise. A Sikh's entire focus is to live within the Hukum of Akal Purukh. And Akal Purukh, Waheguru Jee, knows exactly how to open our eyes to His Apar Hukum. If we live in gurmat, if we live loving Gurujee, then stage by stage Gurujee will open our understanding more and more. What God can do if we are His beloveds is beyond our understanding. Our love for Gurujee has to be a humble love, never desiring anything more than Naam and Gurujee's Charan Kamal. Our Ardas has to be that Gurujee keeps us in His Hukum, and teach us to live in His Hukum. As per gurmat, this is the best sign of a Gursikh's pyaar for His/Her Gurdev. In the most troubling of times, we have to ask Gurujee to give us the strength to abide by His Hukum.

In gurmat, our relationship to God excites us NOT because our proximity to God will help us to twist God's arm to suit our tender nature and perform what could be interpreted to be a miracle either in, or out of God's Hukum. Rather, in Gurmat, our relationship to God excites us for a very much more important reason, and that is, that we get to sit at the feet of Gurujee's Charan Kamal. SGGS,''raj na chahoo, mukt na chahoo, man preet charan kemlare.''