pad-chhed

[Singh47]

Khalistani, Matha Teking to Shastars, Bani(even a Gutka as it contains Bani) is good. No issue there. The issue here is whether Padshed is right or wrong. Sant Kartar Singh jee clearly says in his Katha “Padshed eh athiant Manah hai” (Padshed is absolutely forbidden). He calls it ‘manmat’. Sure you can bow to Padshed, you can even bow to a Gutka because it’s bani, but that still will not change the fact that Sant Mahapursh have called padshed ‘manmat’. As a Taksali you should support the views of Sant Kartar Singh Jee.

[Gupt daasan daas]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

veer je, i was wondering if u were saying we shudnt matha tek to pad ched as tapoban a while back had started doing

anyways, i agree wit u singh je

matha tekings ok

but we do need lareedar saroops and lareedar santhia

bhula chuka maf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Singh132]

Firstly, is Pad-Chhed the Guru? No it is not. Yes, all baaNee is Guru, but would it be ok then to do an amrit sinchaar or anand kaaraj in the hazooree of a nitnem gutka? No, of course not. So the full Saroop of our Satguru jee is lareedaar saroop of Sree Guru Granth Sahib jee.

Our Guru is perfect and our intellect is limited and flawed. We as a Panth cannot agree on the pad-chhed of even Satnaam. You will find some gutkas with Sat Naam and others with Satnaam. Ik oankaar sat gurparsaad, or satgurparsaad? Or how about paaNee dhotai utarass khay or utar so khay (in 20th pauRee of Japjee Sahib)? How about Pank jo muh pug nahee chalaai or pankaj moh? Everyone has their own ideas and different pad-chhed saroops do it differently. So clearly one "Guru" is wrong.

If it is lareedaar, we use our own "mat" to decide but the Guru is never wrong. If you print it pad-chhed, someone using his own mind broke the words (rightly or wrongly) and the different saroops do not match. So are we making our Guru wrong?

2ndly, by not doing lareedaar parkaash, we have lost so many important rehits. To do paath from lareedaar saroop, you need to know somethign about grammar and meanings. This takes some effort. But if we can be in school for 18 years to get a B.A. degree, why not a couple months to learn how to read our Satguru? Because lareedaar is becoming extinct, hardly anyone knows grammar and meanings anymore. When doing paath from lareedaar, it requires full concentration. Pad-chhed requires very little.

As for bowing to pad-chhed saroops. the argument is like this: of course all baaNee should be respected. But the issue here is that pad-chhed saroop

is sitting on the Gur-gaddi of Satguru Granth Sahib but it is not Satguru jee. Guru jee is Lareedaar Saroop. Pad-chhed is not what was given gur-gaddi by Guru Gobind Singh jee. So when we go to a darbaar and matha tek, we are math tekking to what is being presented as Guru Sahib. If those that KNOW it's not right to have pad-chhed also join in, they are propogating the belief that pad-chhed is ok and can sit on the Takhat. They know full well that this is NOT right and not Guru Sahib but they still bow and treat it like Guru Sahib.

It is like an imposter sitting on the Gur-Gaddi. These Singhs that don't mathha tek feel that pad-chhed as baaNee must be respected, but if it is presented as Guru Sahib, they will not act just as they would if it were Guru Sahib. Imagine some Gurdwara started to do parkaash of a Nitnem Gutka and asked everyone to treat it like Guru Sahib. Yes, no one would have a problem with respecting that gutka, but everyone would say "it's wrong to do parkaash of a gutkaa in the place of Guru Sahib" and ask that it be changed. In the same way, it is wrong to do parkaash of Pad-chhed and it too must be changed.

But in the end, it is each person's own choice. Here, I've just tried to explain why certain Singhs won't mattha tek to a pad-chhed saroop.

[r.singh]

I personally do matha tek, but I understand what Singh 132 is saying. I didn't think too much about this issue, but one day while sitting in a divaan (with pad ched prakash), it struck me.

Just pause and think rationally about it for a minute. If you think that since banee is banee and that there is no difference in having pad ched saroop or lareedhar, than what was the point originally of starting pad ched? If there is no difference, why take the effort to print a new saroop instead of keeping the one already being used? Obviously, since people thought that there was a difference. They think that padched is easier to read and makes guru saahib 'more accessible'. So if we were to make a chart comparing pad ched and lareedhar and put check marks for all the qualities that these saroops have (this is purely hypothetical, since the qualities of gurbanee are infinite), we would have check marks for both sarroops for all the different qualities (according to these people). Except at the very end. Pad ched would have one extra quality; ease of reading. Or, looking at it the other way, we will have identified a 'weakness' in lareedhar saroop. So then these saroops are no longer regarded as being equal. Padched is considered superior since it is 'easier' and 'more accessible'. This is also why people choose to do prakash of pad ched over lareedhar and argue so much in favour of it.

Now lets step back and take a look at this. Guru Saahib (first Guru Arjun Dev Jee and then Guru Gobind Singh Jee) gave us lareedhar saroops. These saroops were then given gur gaddi (keep in mind that 'banee guru, guru hai banee...' always applied bu

t gur guddi was given to Guru Granth Saahib Jee by Guru Gobind Singh Jee and not before this). Sikhs fully accepted this. Pad ched of banee may have been done to gutkays, but never to the full Guru Granth Saahib. But then eventually, some sikhs decided they found a flaw in Guru Saahib: Guru Granth Saahib was too 'hard' to read and wasn't accessible to the masses. So they tried fixing this 'flaw' that the guru's had apparently overlooked by doing pad ched and in effect, 'improving' their guru. Can you imagine this? The sikhs decided that the Guru given to them by Sri Dasam Pita Jee was lacking in some quality and so, the sikhs decided to make their guru 'better'. Isn't this the biggest form of blasphemy possible?

Some may think that I'm being extreme in my analysis. But just think about it. You don't change something that is perfect. So why change the form of our guru? You'd only do it if you thought there was something wrong. You don't fix something that isn't broken. If both forms were truly thought of as equal (which they can never be since one was given by our guru's and the other by people using their own mat), then there would never have been a need to make pad ched. But these people think it's better, so that's why they've tried replacing the guru made lareedhar saroops by the man made pad ched saroops.

Every time we accept the pad ched saroop as being the true guru, we are basically agreeing with the stance that the original lareedhar form of Guru Granth Saahib Jee, given Gurgaddi by Guru Gobind Singh Jee, is flawed. Why else would we do prakash of something other than what Guru Saahib gave us? You can try making all the arguments you want, but in the end it comes down to the point that the only reason of replacing lareedhar saroop with pad ched is if you think pad ched is better (by being easier to read, etc). If you accept this, then you've accepted that the Guru's made a mistake and ga

ve us a flawed guru, which the sikhs had to then fix. This may sound harsh to some, but this is the truth. No reason to back pad ched saroop unless you think that the original choice of the guru's was flawed. It doesn't matter what any sant or baba says. What the guru's gave us was perfect. All these babay will claim over and over about how they won't allow even one letter of gurbanee to be changed. Yet they don't seem to have a problem with the decision of the Guru's being challenged and the whole Guru Granth Saahib being changed.

I remember something Hardeep Singh of Toronto telling me. He said they had an amrit sanchaar at Scarborough Gurdvara saahib, with lareedhar saroop prakash. Afterwards, some kathavachak at the gurdvara trashed them for using this saroop, saying how there was no difference in saroops and that these singhs are just trouble makers. Hardeep Singh said he approached the kathavachak later on and asked him about why Guru Gobind Singh Jee didn't just make Guru Granth Saahib Jee pad ched to begin with, since Guru Saahib was all knowing and would have known if it would be too hard to read in the future. Was it because they had a lack of paper and were trying to conserve paper? Or was there a problem with the ink that prevented them from leaving gaps? Or was it because Guru Saahib wan't in fact 'janee jaan' (all knowing) and so, didn't realise that there would be idiots born in the 20th century who wouldn't be able to learn paat in lareedhar?

[r.singh]

Just to add, the panth has never officially accepted pad ched saroops. The only official decision taken by the panth (by the SGPC and Chief Khalsa Diwan) was to ban publication of pad ched saroops. This decision has never been overturned, although the SGPC eventually started ignoring it's own decision.

[V]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

I was discussing this with a friend, and I meantioned how Baba Kartar Singh ji Bhindrawale said it's manmat and this is his response -

I have a book written by Sant Kartar Singh. He himself used pad-chhed lines of gurbani. if it is okay in a book, why is it wrong in Beerh. it is just double standard. Khalsa jeevan ate gurmat rahat maryada.

If TAksal was against it, why is it so that gurbani gutkas published by Jatha Bhindra mehta are pad-chhed?

Someone above meatnioned Gutke being into Pad-ched how can tha be accepted then???

but yeah I see your points :lol:

bhull chukk maaf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji]

Mr Singh, when it comes to following rehit maryada it's only Guru Sahib who we look upto. Damdami Taksal is just 'another' Jathebandi in the Khalsa Panth, just like Akhand Kirtani Jatha, Tarna Dal and others. When we talk about satkaar of Guru Sahib, we need to look over everything else, even the jathe we follow.

Remember, Baba Kartaar Singh Ji probably did not pick up a typewriter and started typing his own books up. So the pad-ched could have been done later by the publisher or the editor. His recording clearly suggest that pad-ched is manmat. And about Gutke Sahib, I agree.. Taksal, just like other Sikh Jathebandis, need to stick to the one puratan rehit maryada. It's very sad to see no one today working towards preserving the traditional rehit maryada. And we all know that most of the Sikh Jathebandis today are not the same they were a couple of decades ago. No need to get angry here.. just look at where we stand. This matter needs to be solved by talking to all the 'in-charge' Taksali Singhs and those of other Jathebandis who are involved in printing of Pad-ched Saroops and Gutke.

Please no one take my post against Taksal.. this also goes to all other Jathebandis who are involved pad-ched printing.

I hope others can give better advice on pad-ched in books.

[r.singh]

When someone writes a book and uses gurbanee tuks, they are using their interpretation of that gurbanee and will pad ched it as they see fit. When you read the book, you know that the author is writing their views and this is not necessarily how guru saahib would do it. So it's not that big a deal if it's pad ched. The point here is that the gur gaddi was given to a saroop that was lareedhar. If you make a gutkaa, a pothee or a book with pad ched, it's not the same thing as Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee. It's still gurbanee and worthy of our utmost respect, but it isn't on the gurgaddee. We can write whatever banees we want in a gutkaa, in whatever order we want. You can't do that in Sri Guru Granth Saahib. The point is about which saroop was given gur gadee, not about whether it's gurbanee. Ideally, it would be nice if all gurbanee was written in lareedhar. However, the main issue is about the form of Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee and whether we can make alterations to our Guru.

[Singh132]

A simple test for those that think pad-chhed is fine and "bani is bani" so it must be ok:

let's say a group of people decide that they want to rearrange Guru Granth Sahib jee in order of Guru Sahib, so they put together all of Guru Nanak Dev jee's baaNee and then Guru Angad..etc. And at the end they put all the bhagats in order of bhagat. Not a thing in the baaNee is changed. Is this ok? Would everyone be fine with doing parkaash of this sarooop? Bani is bani afterall, so why would this be wrong?

The obvious answer is that this is MAHA-MANMAT and a big paap. Why? Because it's messing with something Guru Sahib gave us. So then if this is wrong, what makes pad-chhed ok?

[Bijla Singh]

Singhs have written some very good posts on this. I would like to add that all puratan hand written saroops are ladivaar saroops including Dasam Granth saroops. When British printed few small saroops 1" by 1" even those were printed ladivaar. I myself had darshan of one of those saroops. very hard to read even with maginifying glass. puratan gutkas are in ladivaar. Dasam Granth Kamar Kassa gutka of Baba Deep Singh Ji still exists today at Takhat Damdama Sahib. it is in ladivaar saroop. At Darbar Sahib, they only used to do parkash of hand written ladivaar but recently they changed it to printed version but still it is ladivaar. taksal gives santhiya from ladivaar saroops.

SGPC decided to make it pad-ched and also decided to change "Manglacharans" which is rearranging Bani. for example, if there was written "Mahalla 5, Ikoankar Satugur Parsaad" SGPC wanted to make it "Ikoankar Satugur Parsaad, Mahalla 5". they started printing these saroops. it was during 1st war with pakistan and singhs couldn't win the morcha. few members went to Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji and some other great gursikhs for help. they all said if they put stop to changing manglacharans and leave everything to the original version then Maharaaj will do kirpa and they agreed. Singhs won the morcha and war and also sikhs won morcha of punjab sooba. If strict measures are taken to stop pad-ched printing then I think Panth will go upwards in winning the morchas.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh