Jump to content

pad-chhed


r.singh
 Share

Recommended Posts

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

my point was to not matha tek to pad ched saroop is wrong and to call the entire saroop including the bani manmat

say the act of padched spillitng the words is wrong

please

it makes more sense

to say saroop, to me seems like everything

anyways

and bijla singh je said, pad ched can change bani, to become something else

BUT

this does not happen everywhere

so, u shud still to mostly all the bani that is still correct aarth

and treat the saroop wit repect

bhula chuka maf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 105
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

khalistani veer jee is not wrong. you guys just have 20 people teaming up on him repeating the same thing over again. doesnt make you right. sant jee says doing pad-chhed is manmat. but onces its done, then what can one do. sant jee isnt gonna say and never did say dont matha tek to a pad-chhed saroop. and thats the issue here. you're supposed to matha tek to 'ik oankaar' alone. so how are you not gonna matha tek to an entire saroop whether its pad-chhed or not. bani is still written in the saroop. end of story. if you dont wanna do parkash of pad-chhed saroops, then thats fine. but doesnt mean you stop going to programs or whatever that have pad-chhed saroops, let alone stop to do matha tek of them...

are you trying to justify swearing?? A person can do as much bhagti as they want and stay with which ever sant they wish for as long as they want, but if they are swearing, it is the equivalent of fecal matter coming out of their mouth. Don't ever try to justify swearing especially on a forum where there are a lot of young readers. That's almost as disturbing as your inability to understand all of the clear as day posts by the members who are trying to make you understand why laRidaar saroop is our Guru.

bhainjee, what khalistani vee

r jee gave you was a tukh from gurbani. maybe you're not understanding. your mat is not greater than gurmat. if guru sahib says even if a sant speaks bad outwardly, they are still pleasing to the lord....how are you gonna argue that? and khalistani veer jee is 100% in support of larivaar saroops, but that doesnt make pad-chhed saroops not our guru.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest noonespecial

Admin #8 jee you said

this time he's misguided

Do you know that for sure? Have you decided the lareevaar and padched argument for the Panth? In my humble opinion, I think some people out there might think that Khalistani veer isn't misguided at all. As a moderator you're supposed to have neutrality. If you wish to post then do it as a user and not as an ADMIN. I think ADMINS should only post to MODERATE the discussion. Taking sides is not fair.

moving on, my question to the sangat is this.

Say all Saroops are printed in Larivaar form. When the reader is doing the padched by themselves they will of course make mistakes. Perhaps even MORE than they would with Padched saroops. Isn't reading SHUDH Bani a goal of every Sikh? Also, let's say the answer to that question is that Guru Sahib will give you the mat to read Bani correct. What if two equally chardeekalaa gursikhs have a different way of reading a thukh? Who's right? Who's wrong? The same mistakes by the reader that occcur with padched saroop will occur in lareevaar. So what have we accomplished by lareevaar?

Please do not take these questions as me saying that lareevar is wrong. I do not believe that. I'd like to think that lareevaar saroop will force a Sikh to UNDERSTAND Gurbani in order to read it properly.

Lastly, I have a saroop at home that is both lareevaar and padched. There are many th

ukhs in my bir at home that have the words joined together. I'm sure the panth agrees on the padched version of 90% of the Gurbani in Padched Saroops. What if we just simply did not break up the words of the bani that is still in "dispute" ?

Please, again...just questions. No mudslinging or anything needed. Make me understand with a little compassion please. I'm not looking to start a fight..

:e:

Waheguru jee Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Jee Kee fateh!

ADMIN NOTE: dear "noonespecial" jee, i sincerely apologize for the miscommunication.

I did not intend to say that khalistani veerjee is misguided on the issue of lareevaar/pad-chhed. That is most definately, as you said, a decision for the Guru Khalsa Panth and not mine.

Where I said our young veer is misguided, is the assumption that lots of bhagti compensates for a swearing problem. In response to that "bhainjee" responded and I requested "bhainjee" in her post to talk with her young veer in a nicer tone, as perhaps he is not aware of the detrimental affects of swearing on one's karma.

once again please forgive me for the miscommunication.

on the point of neutrality of W!N or its moderators, there has never been a sarbat khalsa panth decision that pad-chhed suroop is parvaan, or a good thing to be printed. However, there HAS been a sarbat khalsa tradition of only reading from lareevaar suroop from 1708 upto the early 1900's, as Singh132 posted.

It would be foolish, then, to discount the fact that until about 50 years ago we only kept lareevaar suroops. I think a roughly 296-year-old tradition of lareevaar suroops being printed is more weighty than a 50-year old fashion of pad-chedd being printed. And as W!N is a panthic organization which works for the chardee kalaa of the panth, we will

not step down on serious panthic issues ---- the ones that matter --- such as waking up at amrit vela is good, taking amrit is necessary, pad chedd suroop printing is manmat, female infanticide by Punjabi Sikhs is awful, the caste system is horrible, etc. etc. These are beliefs the Panth has had for hundreds of years, and not just tradition - but teachings from bani back these beliefs. So we cannot pretend that we do not have these beliefs. The only issues we do not comment on, or the ones that we "stay neutral" on are the ones that are not allowed to be discussed by hukam of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib through Guru Khalsa Panth, or issues of interpretation of certain teachings of Guru Nanak Dev Ji through to Guru Granth Sahib jee.

We humbly beg for your forgiveness if our stance is counter-panthic or counter-gurmat. -8

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent post noonespecial.

Say all Saroops are printed in Larivaar form. When the reader is doing the padched by themselves they will of course make mistakes. Perhaps even MORE than they would with Padched saroops.
First of all, there's really NO WAY to do pad-ched of bani correctly (I am talking about reading alone). Gurbani was brought to us by Guru Sahib and how can any Gursikh ever compete with Guru Sahib's mat? Only Guru Sahib know what the true meanings of Gurbani are so in other words only Guru Sahib can do correct pad-ched. All we can do is try. I have heard many Gursikhs say that with avastha the meanings of Gurbani change. So the way u would be reading Gurbani now might change when you do more naam abhiyaas because then u would be closer to Guru Sahib and hence would know more about his mat and thinking.
What if two equally chardeekalaa gursikhs have a different way of reading a thukh? Who's right? Who's wrong? The same mistakes by the reader that occcur with padched saroop will occur in lareevaar. So what have we accomplished by lareevaar?

By preserving larridaar saroop we will only be accomplishing

one thing, that is preserving what Guru Sahib gave us. Bijla Singh already posted an awesome post and told us about how Singhs won the morcha when they stopped the printing of saroops with wrong mangla charans. And as I posted earlier, Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji once said that the reason why our panth is seperated into peices now is because we did pad-ched of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's saroop and I also wrote how Sant Kartaar Singh ji got really upset at his student when he tried making parks on a pothi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Lastly, I have a saroop at home that is both lareevaar and padched. There are many thukhs in my bir at home that have the words joined together. I'm sure the panth agrees on the padched version of 90% of the Gurbani in Padched Saroops. What if we just simply did not break up the words of the bani that is still in "dispute" ?
But why do pad-ched at all? You urself just said that reading from larridaar saroop with give the panth more understanding.
Please do not take these questions as me saying that lareevar is wrong. I do not believe that. I'd like to think that lareevaar saroop will force a Sikh to UNDERSTAND Gurbani in order to read it properly.

and more over, there many different versions of pad-ched saroops. So what makes u think any body has agreed upon the pad-ched? Many different examples of different versions of pad-ched were posted on this thread so it should be clear by now that you really cannot tell what is the corrent pad-ched or not. S

ingh132 asked a simple question, if 'satnaam' should be left as 'satnaam' or if it needs to have pad-vand like 'sat naam'.

and thanks to admin #8 for clearify his posting. I think he/she made really good points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Khalistani,

you've mentioned several times that ik oaankar and ikoaankar sound the same and it's all banee, whether it's lareedhar or padched. Well, firstly, nobody is saying that the padched form is not banee. It's banee, but padched of Guru Granth Sahib Jee is wrong.

Now to the point about it all sounding the same. If all we're concerned about is sound, than what if I made a saroop, with all the banee, but written in the romanisd alphabet. Like some of those gutkas that are in english. In fact, this may already have been done. Would doing prakash of this bir and doing akhand paats from this bir be okay, since the banee still sounds the same?

Your point about Sant Kartar Singh Jee's comments makes no sense. He was against the act of doing padched, and condemned it in the strongest possible language, but once it's done, it's okay? Let me understand this: doing padched of gurbanee is utter manmat, but once you have a bir full of padched banee, this bir should be acceptable to the panth as our guru? That makes a lot of sense. :lol: Also, didn't Guru Gobind Singh Jee already decide on the guruship? Who has the authority to change that decision or tamper with the form of that guru, in any way?

Sikh for life,

the panth decided a long time ago that the pad ched of Sri Guru Granth Saahib saroops was wrong. It was banned. The official documents declaring this ban are still available from the SGPC. This ban was never lifted, but was slowly forgotten. Fort

unately, most our historic gurdvaras still do prakash of Lareedhar saroops. However, this is changing, as the lax attitude of the majority of the sikh panth is allowing padched saroops to slowly make their way into our historic gurdvaras. That's why it is crucial for the sangat to be aware of this issue and work at restoring what has been lost.

Lastly, khalistani and taksali1, it's really disappointing that you singhs use the name of Taksal and then make excuses for swearing. You need to control your krodh and wash out your mouths. And by the way, there is nothing shameful in admitting that you've made a mistake. If a gursikh makes a mistake, like swearing, and they have this pointed out to them, they will admit their mistake and apologise, rather than trying to justify their mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The same mistakes by the reader that occcur with padched saroop will occur in lareevaar. So what have we accomplished by lareevaar?

If we've done padched, we have made a decision for everyone about what the correct paat is and have put this decision not only on the sangat, but have tried forcing it on Guru Saahib by changing it permanently in Guru Saahib. If we keep it lareevaar, the Guru is not being tampered with and the possible mistake is not being preserved. The next patee to come along may do the paat correctly. The mistake will be that of the patees and will not be enshrined in the saroop itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

soggsj jee, im sure anyone posting in favor of pad-chhed are not saying that pad-chhed should be allowed to be done. what we are saying is that now that it is done, we still have to do the same satkar of the saroop as we would a larivaar saroop. but in the future there should be no more printings of pad-chhed.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Lastly, khalistani and taksali1, it's really disappointing that you singhs use the name of Taksal and then make excuses for swearing. You need to control your krodh and wash out your mouths. And by the way, there is nothing shameful in admitting that you've made a mistake. If a gursikh makes a mistake, like swearing, and they have this pointed out to them, they will admit their mistake and apologise, rather than trying to justify their mistake.

rsingh, i am not justifying khalistani veer jee swearing on this board. and even khalistani veer jee has stated that the tukh he gave was about sants. and he didnt say the tukh to justify himself, he posted the tukh to prove some point about swearing (i apologize i forget what he told me the reason was for, but even he said he wasnt trying to justify himself swearing).

A person can do as much bhagti as they want and stay with which ever sant they wish for as long as they want, but if they are swearing, it is the equivalent of fecal matter coming out of their mouth.

what i was saying is that this statement is false. that tukh clearly states that even if a SANT misspeaks outwardly, that SANT is still pleasing to god.

i apologize for any misunderstandings. if you took what i said the wrong way, again i apologize.

bhul chuk maaf

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest noonespecial

Dear Admin#8 Jeeo,

Please accept my most humblest apologies. The miscommunication was on my part. blush.gif

Excellent post noonespecial.
Thanks, I kinda thought so too! :TH: hee hee! :nihungsmile:
By preserving larridaar saroop we will only be accomplishing one thing, that is preserving what Guru Sahib gave us

One quick question here. Did Guru Sahib give us the actual PHYSICAL form of Guru Granth Sahib, or did he give us Shabad Guru / Gurbani? If the answer is Gurbani, then the form in which Gurbani comes shouldn't be an issue? or should it? :(

I have a few other questions:

1. What is the main point for people who are adamant about lareevar? Is it simply that lareevaar was the original form so it should it shouldn't changed? Or is there some Gurmat oriented explanation? It can't be because they think that with lareevaar less mistakes in reading Gurbani will occur. I think that people will make MORE.

2. What about all the people in this world who have benefitted from the padshed saroop? Would ANY of us be the people that we are today if we didn't have good old Sikhitothemax aiding us along the way? I know I'm a better person after I read from Guru Granth Sahib Jee at home.

3. Does this mean that all Gutkay and Pothis must be lareevaar?

..I think that's good for now.

Lastly, at this point I have to stress that I think lareevaar is the way to go. NOT because you guys convinced me (sorry guys!) :lol: , but because when reading Gurbani from Guru Granth Sahib Jee you can sort of feel someone/something guiding you. I think that Gurbani is perhaps the DEEPEST thing. I think that Guru Sahib reveals the meanings and correct pronunciations to you as He see's fit.

Again, I'm a manmukh, I'm just looking for some answers.

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Jee Kee Fateh!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When the reader is doing the padched by themselves they will of course make mistakes. Perhaps even MORE than they would with Padched saroops. Isn't reading SHUDH Bani a goal of every Sikh? Also, let's say the answer to that question is that Guru Sahib will give you the mat to read Bani correct. What if two equally chardeekalaa gursikhs have a different way of reading a thukh? Who's right? Who's wrong? The same mistakes by the reader that occcur with padched saroop will occur in lareevaar. So what have we accomplished by lareevaar?
Veer Ji, there might be differences in reading bani but that in no way justifies separating the words and then printing it. Also, in ladivaar you will have to take santhiya. two gursikh might read one panktee in two different ways or even three or four. but that doesn't matter. the point here is that reading bani is different than printing bani in pad-ched.
I'm sure the panth agrees on the padched version of 90% of the Gurbani in Padched Saroops.

Bani in pad-ched or ladivaar is not in the question but printing bani in pad-ched which is separating the words.

Only Guru Sahib know what the true meanings of Gurbani are so in other words only Guru Sahib can do correct pad-ched. All we can do is try. I have heard many Gursikhs say that with avastha the meanings of Gurbani change.

Singh Ji, if we cannot understand the true meanings of Gurbani then what is the point? Gurbani has meany meanings and higher in avstha you go higher the meanings are but all those meanings lead to the same way and never contradict each other. I am assuming that by "true" you did not mean that Gurbani has only one meaning which only Guru Ji knows because then why have something we cannot understand ever? I have learned from some gursikhs two/three meanings of some tuks but all correct. they go higher and higher they are more you enjoy.

what we are saying is that now that it is done, we still have to do the same satkar of the saroop as we would a larivaar saroop. but in the future there should be no more printings of pad-chhed.
Rehat is to do five banis in the morning. SGPC changed it to 3 so now it is done we should respect it and make sure no one makes it different in the future? makes no sense veer ji. "someone" made keski optional but why should we respect it? since when did "options" become acceptable in sikhi?
One quick question here. Did Guru Sahib give us the actual PHYSICAL form of Guru Granth Sahib, or did he give us Sh

abad Guru / Gurbani? If the answer is Gurbani, then the form in which Gurbani comes shouldn't be an issue? or should it?

Guru Ji said that "If you want to have my darshan then have darshan of the shabad Guru. If you want to talk to me then read Bani". This means if we separate the words wrongly, it gives different meanings and Guru Ji once gave punishment to a Sikh for reading Bani wrong. read all the posts. your question has been answered before.

1. What is the main point for people who are adamant about lareevar? Is it simply that lareevaar was the original form so it should it shouldn't changed? Or is there some Gurmat oriented explanation? It can't be because they think that with lareevaar less mistakes in reading Gurbani will occur. I think that people will make MORE.
this question has been answered before as well. there is difference between reading bani and printing bani in pad-ched. how do you not see it veer ji? if we read bani wrong then we should take santhiya and correct it but why separate the words?
What about all the people in this world who have benefitted from the padshed saroop? Would ANY of us be the people that we are today if we didn't have good old Sikhitothemax aiding us along the way? I know I'm a better person after I read from Guru Granth Sahib Jee at home.

for all those people we should change the form of shabad? why? if their lives were totally changed wo

uldn't they take amrit and follow akal takhat sahib which clearly states that pad-ched is wrong. we would be lot better people with santhiya.

Panth has faced loss with pad-ched. Once a family of monays came to Baba Deep Singh Ji Gurdwara and wanted to take Maharaaj Ji home for Akahand Paath. One gursikh worker there asked them if they needed paathis also but they said no they would do it themselves. monays doing akahand paath sahib? imagine that. So that gursikh gave them ladivaar saroop and they left. couple minutes later they came running back because they couldn't read Bani. Then they requested paathis and akhand paath sahib was done from ladivaar. with pad-ched more people don't get benefits but more people disrespect bani.

3. Does this mean that all Gutkay and Pothis must be lareevaar?

why not? puratan gutka of Baba Deep Singh Ji is in ladivaar.

khalistani and taksali veer ji. Sant Kartar Singh Ji once said in his katha that "Taksali" means one who goes to Taksal. Taksal is a school and only a student of this school is taksali. So are you students of taksal? ever been students? don't take me wrong here but if you are not then what makes you taksali? only respecting taksal so much doesn't justify the answer because that would mean me or someone else has less respect which is not true.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share


  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • yeh it's true, we shouldn't be lazy and need to learn jhatka shikaar. It doesn't help some of grew up in surrounding areas like Slough and Southall where everyone thought it was super bad for amrit dharis to eat meat, and they were following Sant babas and jathas, and instead the Singhs should have been normalising jhatka just like the recent world war soldiers did. We are trying to rectifiy this and khalsa should learn jhatka.  But I am just writing about bhog for those that are still learning rehit. As I explained, there are all these negative influences in the panth that talk against rehit, but this shouldn't deter us from taking khanda pahul, no matter what level of rehit we are!
    • How is it going to help? The link is of a Sikh hunter. Fine, but what good does that do the lazy Sikh who ate khulla maas in a restaurant? By the way, for the OP, yes, it's against rehit to eat khulla maas.
    • Yeah, Sikhs should do bhog of food they eat. But the point of bhog is to only do bhog of food which is fit to be presented to Maharaj. It's not maryada to do bhog of khulla maas and pretend it's OK to eat. It's not. Come on, bro, you should know better than to bring this Sakhi into it. Is this Sikh in the restaurant accompanied by Guru Gobind Singh ji? Is he fighting a dharam yudh? Or is he merely filling his belly with the nearest restaurant?  Please don't make a mockery of our puratan Singhs' sacrifices by comparing them to lazy Sikhs who eat khulla maas.
    • Seriously?? The Dhadi is trying to be cute. For those who didn't get it, he said: "Some say Maharaj killed bakras (goats). Some say he cut the heads of the Panj Piyaras. The truth is that they weren't goats. It was she-goats (ਬਕਰੀਆਂ). He jhatka'd she-goats. Not he-goats." Wow. This is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard in relation to Sikhi.
    • Instead of a 9 inch or larger kirpan, take a smaller kirpan and put it (without gatra) inside your smaller turban and tie the turban tightly. This keeps a kirpan on your person without interfering with the massage or alarming the masseuse. I'm not talking about a trinket but rather an actual small kirpan that fits in a sheath (you'll have to search to find one). As for ahem, "problems", you could get a male masseuse. I don't know where you are, but in most places there are professional masseuses who actually know what they are doing and can really relieve your muscle pains.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use