pad-chhed

[Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji]

Only Guru Sahib know what the true meanings of Gurbani are so in other words only Guru Sahib can do correct pad-ched. All we can do is try. I have heard many Gursikhs say that with avastha the meanings of Gurbani change.

Singh Ji, if we cannot understand the true meanings of Gurbani then what is the point? Gurbani has meany meanings and higher in avstha you go higher the meanings are but all those meanings lead to the same way and never contradict each other. I am assuming that by "true" you did not mean that Gurbani has only one meaning which only Guru Ji knows because then why have something we cannot understand ever? I have learned from some gursikhs two/three meanings of some tuks but all correct. they go higher and higher they are more you enjoy.

vaaheguru ji ka khalsa vaaheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Sahib I said that when you do more and more naam/bani abhiyaas you get closer to Guru Sahib and hence you start understand 'more' of what he meant. So perhaps to learn more about bani you have to read more. So the higher the avastha is, the more anand and rass there

is in your understanding of Gurbani.

vaaheguru ji ka khalsa vaaheguru ji ki fateh

[Singh132]

The question asked was what would we have done if pad-chhed wasn't available.

answer: we would have taken the time to learn lareedaar and thus taken the time to learn meanings and grammar and become over all better Sikhs. I can say to you honestly that ever since I learned lareedaar my understanding and reflection upon baaNee has increased a lot. If you want to do paath, you have to make an effort to know what it means so you know words and how they split and so you learn the meaning. It enhances concentration. I can even say this honestly: I find it easier and more satisfying to read lareedaar than pad-chhed.

Mistakes made when reading lareedaar are temporary and the person goes and fixes them. Mistakes in pad-chhed are enshrined and can not be fixed. Lareedaar opens the door to perfection. That chance is never even present with pad-chhed.

I ask again: why would Guru Sahib give his Sikhs lareedaar and not pad-chhed? And then what gives us the right to change it? Next thing we know, we'll be hearing "did Guru Sahib give us Khanday Batay Da amrit or did he really even care if it was made in a sarbloh bata with a khanda? Does it matter if the bata is sarbloh or steel or brass?"

We can't change anything Guru Sahib gave us. Especially not our Satguru.

[simmal tree]

vaaheguroojeekaakhaalsaavaaheguroojeekeefatheh!!!!!!!

BHULAN ANDAR SABH KO ABHUL GURU KARTAR

there are mistakes and flaws in everything and everybody, all over the world, in all spheres of the creation - this is a design of the creation.

the only things, however, without flaws, are the enlightener Guru, and the Creator Waheguru, who are one and the same light.

Guru Granth Sahib - Gurbani - is the light of this world. That Guru cannot be imperfect or have any flaws.

pad-chhed has flaws and mistakes in the seperation of the words at several places.

lareevaar doesn't.

so which one of the two is "ABHUL" ?

lareevaar

so which one is real suroop of the guru?

i rest my case.

good night

vaaheguroojeekaakhaalsaavaaheguroojeekeefatheh!!!!!!!!

[taksali1]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

khalistani and taksali veer ji. Sant Kartar Singh Ji once said in his katha that "Taksali" means one who goes to Taksal. Taksal is a school and only a student of this school is taksali. So are you students of taksal? ever been students? don't take me wrong here but if you are not then what makes you taksali? only respecting taksal so much doesn't justify the answer because that would mean me or someone else has less respect which is not true.

if you wanna look at it like that gurbani says ghadeeai sabad sachee taksal. and guramukh saevaa ghaal jin ghaalee, this gharreeai sabadh sachee ttakasaalee.

one who is truly 'taksali' is someone that is one with the shabad. and if you look at it like that, whats the meaning of 'akhand keertani'. one who is one with the shabad guru. one who has imbued himself with the shabad. so who really is taksali or akhand keertani? (just something to think about)

BUT, the way we look at and the way you mentioned above. one who follows taksals rehat maryada, their asool and get santiya from taksal can consider themselves taksali. you dont have to go to mehta to become taksali. getting santiya from one who is taksali is the same as going to mehta and getting santiya right? taksal is a school and a sikh i

s a student. one who learns from taksal is a taksali. i hope that answers your question.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Singh47]

Here are just some of the differences between the various sroops.

Ham maskeen khudhai bandhay tumra jas mann bhavae||

Ham maskeen khudhai bandhay tum rajas mann bhavae||

Jasan basan sahej kail krunamae||

Jasa n basan sahej kail krunamae||

Jeo opaie pind jin sajiya…

Jeoo paie pind jin sajiya…

All this just proves that if one were to think of a Padshed sroop as Satguru, then we have many versions of Guru Jee out there. I always thought that Guru Gobind Singh Jee only gave Gurgaddi to one and the final Guru, but today we have many, many Gurus.(sarcasm)

Taksali 1, how can one become a Taksali without even studying from the Taksal? Taksal is not a Jathabandi but a school. If you want to be a Taksali you have to become a student of Taksal. A person claiming to be a Taksali yet has never been a student of Taksal is just a dubious as a non-amritdhari adding Singh and Kaur to their names, it just doesn’t add up.

Bhula Chuka dhi khima.

[Singh47]

Mr §ingh Jee, how is it the same bani when right above your post I have written down just a few(of the many) differences. See the comparisons and decide for yourself if they are the same bani.. they are different, not same.

[Gupt daasan daas]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

taksali1 is a taksali

he learns santhia from some of the best santhia teacher around from taksal

and gatka from taksal

bhula chuka maf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[r.singh]

Noonespecial said

One quick question here. Did Guru Sahib give us the actual PHYSICAL form of Guru Granth Sahib, or did he give us Shabad Guru / Gurbani? If the answer is Gurbani, then the form in which Gurbani comes shouldn't be an issue? or should it?

Guru Saahib Jee gave us Shabad Guru/Gurbani and the physical form of Guru Granth Saahib. Shabad has been guru since Guru Nanak Dev Jee, but there was also a physical manesfestation, in the form of our Guru's. This Guru Ship was passed on by Guru Gobind Singh Jee to Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee. That's why we read the dohra, 'guru manio granth'. Granth refers to the physical form. The shabad has always been the guru and Guru Gobind Singh Jee would never have had to pass on the guru ship if there wasn't a physical form as well.

As to the many people who've benefitted from pad ched saroops... they would have benefitted a lot more if they'd learned to read from lareedhar. When you read from lareedhar, you have to make a greater effort and you learn a lot more gurbanee and a lot more about gurbanee. From padched, there is a lot more blind reading involved. People have made learning to read lareedhar seem like some momentous task. It isn't. If we have piaar for Guru Saahib and put in the amount of effort we should for our guru, it is quite simple. We devote so much time to learn other things in life, but to learn gurbanee, we want to s

pend as little time and effort as possible. If you've learned how to read panjabee and gurmukhee, then reading from lareedhar isn't that much more difficult. Using padched saroops has made sikhs that much lazier and has lessened the experience of learning gurbanee.

The main point about why saroops should be lareedhar is quite simple. Because this is the physcial form of gurbanee/guru shabad given to us by our Guru's. When we try changing it, we use our own mat to try and decide what the guru's meant. Nobody in the world, no matter what their avasthaa, has the authority, or giaan, to change the form of that guru. As has been shown in this thread already, there are many disagreements in the panth about proper padched. There are in fact hundreds of disagreements. Every publisher has there own version of guru granth saahib. You might make mistakes reading lareedhar, but those will be your own mistakes, which you can correct. In padched, those mistakes have been permanently and intentionally passed on to the saroop. In accepting pad ched, we are also implying that the form of Guru given to us by Guru Saahib was deficient. It was flawed and we have now tried making our guru better, by making it easier to read and more accessible. Singho, sikhs of the guru can't try changing their guru. They accept their guru as perfect. If singhs at the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee or Guru Nanak Dev Jee had found aspects of the guru too difficult, they wouldn't have tried changing the guru. They would accept that there must be a reason for this and adapt themselves. We want to make our guru adapt to us rather than making the effort to adapt to our guru.

[Guest noonespecial]

Thanks for the answers everyone. :TH:

[taksali1]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Taksali 1, how can one become a Taksali without even studying from the Taksal? Taksal is not a Jathabandi but a school. If you want to be a Taksali you have to become a student of Taksal. A person claiming to be a Taksali yet has never been a student of Taksal is just a dubious as a non-amritdhari adding Singh and Kaur to their names, it just doesn’t add up.

taksal is like a moving university. many singhs from taksal come abroad and give santiya and what not. this way everyone doesnt have to go to mehta to get santiya and become 'taksali'. and coming from you, doesnt mean much cuz i know you'll find any reason to put taksal down. remember, taksals lineage ended after sant baba gurbaksh singh jee.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!