pad-chhed

[Confu Singh]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

I feel that some of the Sangat here have incorrectly got swept along by this idea by that only a saroop of Guru ji in larridaar form is the true Guru.

Guru ji saroop when in pad ched form is no less the Guru than that in larridaar if it has been checked/corrected ('sodhai keethee'). Why do I say this?

Gurbani has a primary meaning ('mukh arth') and numerous inner/higher meanings ('antriv arth') i.e. a tuk may have a literal meaning and many spiritual meanings. If a person has separated out the words in accordance with one meaning, then that does not make it wrong. It is just as valid although it may not be the primary meaning.

The basis of the idea that only a larridaar saroop is Guru ji is that there is only one meaning to Gurbani. This is clearly false. A simple example - 'saabath suurat dastaar siraa...' here the word suurat can be taken to mean physical form or it can be taken to mean consciousness. Both are correct.

The idea that Gurbani has only one meaning has its origins in those who believe that Gurbani can be confined to one system of grammar - unfortunately this is not the case. There are many different systems of grammar used in Gurbani based upon whichever language is being referred to. In addition, there are some shabads where the rules of grammar, as some would expect to see it, have not been followed at all.

In addition, those people who are most vocal in saying that pad ched saroops of Guru ji are not Guru ji (i.e. people and admin on Tap

oban) are exactly those people who state that the physical form of the Panj Piare does not matter i.e. male or female it is the spirit or soul which is important. It seems hypocritical for them to advocate the principle that the spirit is more important than the form in one instance and not in the other.

Further they advocate adding sounds which are not written in Gurbani (adding the sounds 'sh', 'z', putting tippi on some words) and not pronouncing sounds which are (the short vowels found at the end of many words)! This is again hypocritical - who are they to say that they know better than Guru ji what letters should be added or taken away from Gurbani?

CS

[r.singh]

Gurbani has a primary meaning ('mukh arth') and numerous inner/higher meanings ('antriv arth') i.e. a tuk may have a literal meaning and many spiritual meanings. If a person has separated out the words in accordance with one meaning, then that does not make it wrong. It is just as valid although it may not be the primary meaning.

The basis of the idea that only a larridaar saroop is Guru ji is that there is only one meaning to Gurbani. This is clearly false. A simple example - 'saabath suurat dastaar siraa...' here the word suurat can be taken to mean physical form or it can be taken to mean consciousness. Both are correct.

You've gotten this completely backwards. How is the idea of one meaning of gurbanee the basis of Lareedar? If you believe in more than one meaning, then you should be even more against padched. One of the main points raised against padched was that people will print different versions of padched, depending on how they take the meanings to be. If you do padched one way and print it like this in a saroop, then you are basically denying the possibility of any other padched for that tuk. Your point makes no sense.

Also, if you want to discuss gurbanee ucharan and females in the panj, please start another thread. As far as grammar is concerned, read a book on viakaran and you'll realise that different grammatical systems of different languages are taken into account

.

Lastly, if you have a valid point in favour of padched, then present it. What does trying to bring in the views of people at Tapoban have to do with this? If your stance has any merit, it should be able to stand on it's own without you trying to shift the attention to other issues and trying to attack the people and personalities presenting the counter view, rather than attacking their arguements.

[Confu Singh]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

The fact is that if Guru ji is printed with one particular meaning, there is nothing stopping the paathi reading in another meaning to it.

It is the knowledge and gian of the Paathi which is important in doing Paath.

If you do padched one way and print it like this in a saroop, then you are basically denying the possibility of any other padched for that tuk.

That is only the case if you do paath without thinking about it...

So is Guru ji not present when the saroop is in the form of pad ched? Of course, he is present - to state otherwise is...

[Simran9]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

The fact is that if Guru ji is printed with one particular meaning, there is nothing stopping the paathi reading in another meaning to it.

It is the knowledge and gian of the Paathi which is important in doing Paath.

If you do padched one way and print it like this in a saroop, then you are basically denying the possibility of any other padched for that tuk.

That is only the case if you do paath without thinking about it...

So is Guru ji not present when the saroop is in the form of pad ched? Of course, he is present - to state otherwise is...

i don't understand how the paathi can read it another way when he is rushing through the paath. These days, its all about the money and time. Paathis do not slow down. They are speeding throught the bani like it is some kind of competition to see which paathi can read how many pages in how much time.

this applies to most but not ALL. the rest of the paathis juz rea

d it the way it is printed. they don't give a second thought either to read it a different way.

:lol: @

[palvinder88]

wjkk wjkf..i would like to point a thing here...wht is the diffrent if the words ar far or near? the meaning is still there..the writing is still there...n guru maharaj said..bani guru.guru hay bani... this means..if the words ar far.. but the meaning is there..there is not a pro to read it..as long dnt change the meaning of each tuk..or akhar..bhul cuk maaf..wjkk wjkf..

Admin Note: This thread has had many people contribute their view points, and we have noticed that most of the new questions, like the one raised in this post and the ones raised by ConfuSingh have already been answered by other sevadars. So please refrain from asking questions which have already been answered. If anymore of these posts keep coming up, we will have to delete them without any warnings because these types of posts degrade the level of discussion.

Palvinder88, please read Singh132, r.singh and Singh47's posts to read why pad-ched does make a difference and also listen to Baba Kartar Singh Khalsa Ji's recording on Pad-Ched to find out more. -8

[Harmeet Singh]

Singh47 ji

Could you please tell the Ang of Guru granth sahib ji where these shabads you mentioned are from

Here are just some of the differences between the various sroops.

Ham maskeen khudhai bandhay tumra jas mann bhavae||

Ham maskeen khudhai bandhay tum rajas mann bhavae||

Jasan basan sahej kail krunamae||

Jasa n basan sahej kail krunamae||

Jeo opaie pind jin sajiya…

Jeoo paie pind jin sajiya…