BBC Documentary on illegal immigration from Punjab

[proactive]

These new immigrants to England also have extended settled family members in the UK. But we the British Sikhs have become cold people. Cold hearted. Not only do we not help the new to settle we actually ignore them and pretend that they don't even exist. There are immigrants from all over the world that come to London. Most of them come from poorer areas than Punjab.....more uneducated than Punjabis. They have come in bigger numbers than the Punjabis. There is a reason why its just the Punjabi Sikhs that have ended up destitute on the streets. Here you are blaming them and the labour situation in the UK and yet you ignore that all those other groups don't end up on the streets. Why is it that most of the illegals that came in the back of a lorry from Calais were Kurds, Iraqis and Africans and yet it is only the small number that were Sikhs that ended up on the streets begging for money ? The reason is because of us. We, the British Sikh community have failed them. It is a crying shame the way we have failed them. We are, however, so utterly shameless that after we fail them we then go on to blame them.

Crying, whinging, complaining, blaming. Thats all us British Sikhs are good for.

This is more to do with the fact Punjabis are probably the only people who cannot get political asylum in the UK. Tamils,Somalis, Kurds, Afghanis (including Afghani Sikhs) etc only have to land in the UK and they can apply for political asylum. Even if they get refused which is not very often they can still extend their stay by constantly appealing and some cases can take 5-7 years in total. By that time they can have got married and had kids and then they can apply on compassionate grounds! During the time that their cases are being assesed they are entitled to benefits including rent being paid for them. In majority of cases they will get accepted for political asylum and live off the state for the rest of their lives, apart from the Tamils and Afghani Sikhs. This is the main reason you don't get homeless Tamils or Kurds or others. Non-Punjabi immigrants might get support from their own people but the main reason is the benefits that sustain them while they get on their feets. If Punjabis were able to get rent and benefits paid for a few years they too would be able to make a go and you wouldn't see any Punjabi homeless in the streets.

I had to laugh ate the anecdotes of the 'rich' illegals that some people are discussing here. People like to tell 'guppan' so there may be some guys on Dalsingh's building site who try and big themselves up as if they have 20 acres in Punjab but the truth is that for most the immigrant dream is the only dream they can pursue. These guys probably belong to poor farmer families where the daughter has to be married off by selling half an acre, one son eaks a living on a few acres along with taking a few more acres on hefty maamla or theka and one son goes abroad on the money of another acre sold off. This is how it has always was even in my grandparents time. The only difference being that not many people went abroad but there were job opportunities for one or two of the sons of each family to get into the Army or a government job like teaching or revenue work. Two or more of the sons would farm and the family income would be supplemented by the pay from sons in the army or other jobs. These are all shut off to people from a farming background even who have worked their backsides off studying.

The only avenue available is to go abroad. There may be some who are after a good time although I doubt that, most just have a dream to make it big outside Punjab where we all know the Indian system have turned the state into a mess. It is only the unavailablity of jobs due to the recession and lately a government clampdown on employers employing illegals (£10,000 fine for each illegal caught) that has led to the homelessness epidemic. There are nowadays daily raids on big businesses in Southall by the border agency trying to catch illegal workers. Most of the goray in the Border agency are racists ar*eholes and the Asians working with them are self hating idiots who delight in trying to impress their goray bosses. It wouldn't surprise me if Dalsingh didn't go straight from his building site on being a uniformed cgumcha working for Cameron's kuttay. If the Border agency backed off for a few months and turned a blind eye most of the illegals would be able to get jobs and get off the streets. Fools like Cameron doesn't realise that the country isn't being bled dry by a few thousand illegals working for less than minimum wage but by Somalis and Afghani playing the system where the wife has 10 kids and gets her rent paid on a 500k house and the husband pretends he doesn't get on wit her and gets a rent free flat!

I do agree with WLS, some people on here are no worst than the racists that our parents and grandparents met when they came to this country. I'm not saying all the illegals are angels but the majority are just here following a dream. They get fleeced by agents in Punjab. Risk their lives to get into the country and are then fleeced by landlords and paid a pittence by employers. Even then they have to watch their backs in case they get caught working and if they are unlucky and lose their jobs they have no recourse to get any help. Let's hope none of us ever are placed in such a situation.

[Sherdil]

I think many haven't seen what some of us have seen.

Case in point @ 2:40

I went to school with guys just like that. They come from rich families in Punjab, who see it as a status symbol to send their kids abroad. The kids take it as an opportunity to do whatever they want while they are away from mummy daddy. These guys are horn dogs. They go crazy when they see a girl wearing shorts or jeans. They are produced by the same culture that thinks girls enjoy being eve teased or fondled on buses.

Some of them are quite slick. They make a sanaan white girl fall in love with them, and then leave her after they get their green card. I knew one guy who did just that to a white girl. She started wearing Punjabi suits and saying Sat Sri Akal to everyone. Then as soon as he got his green card, he left her. I felt so sorry for her.

With all that said, yes there are apne who go abroad to make a better life for themselves and their families. However, we shouldn't ignore the element that is just looking for an adventure.

[VanHelsingh]

I guess there's a case for trying to look for the positives in these kind of situations instead of erring on the side of negativity. Point taken. I suppose it's about personal experiences as well.

[HSD2]

My God, we really are a bunch of oversensitive women now arent we? Are there any Sikh men left or are you all too comfortable in your saris? Truthful points have been made, answer them. Dont start getting oversentimental or painting some false idiotic idea of your teaboy lifestyles.

[West London Singh]

I think many haven't seen what some of us have seen.

We've seen far more than you. We've even looked in a mirror and seen ourselves in these new immigrants. They are us but for a simple twist of fate. But for a simple of twist of fate we too would have been born in rural Punjab. For all of us it was a split second decision by our forefathers that determined whether we would be the 5% that were lucky to be born in the west or whether we would be with the 95% struggling in the cesspit that is India. Praise Waheguru for each and every second he has blessed you with the priveiege of living as a free Sikh in the western world.

Everything you, Kaljugi, Dal Singh et al have said in the last few messages is exactly the same as what was said by British MP's in parliament about your father or grandfather. They, back then, wanted it so that your father or grandfather never existed. To do that they said terrible things that implied how how dirty and bad yours and mine grandparents were. The Parliamentary records show how the lawmakers said our grandparents were only here to prey upon, use upon and lust upon white englishwomen. Some lawmakers said our grandparents were not fit to live in the UK. Some said our grandparents we here only to rob and steal. Some said they were drug addicts determined to make the UK addicted to drugs.

While our grandparents were here there were a total of 11 anti-discrimination bills proposed in Parliament. 99.99 % of those never saw the light of day because 99.99 of Parliament echoed the feelings of 99,99% of the British public in that our grandfathers were womaniser lazy uneducated charlatans. Now.....I'm sure there are many Ramgharia UK Sikhs reading this and thinking well, none of this applies to me because I was welcomed as a British passport holder. To them I say this :

You were given no welcome mat either bruvs. Roy Jenkins is the man largely credited by the history books of introducing anti-racism discrimination in the UK for the first time ever after visiting America as the Home Secretary and seeing the Civil Rights Act in action. What the history books don't tell you though but what is revealed the official diaries of the then Parliamentary secretary Richard Crossman is how Roy Jenkins re-called Parliament for an emergency midnight session after it was learned that the Africanization policies of Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania would mean that a hundred thousand 'Indians' with British passports would soon be landing at Heathrow Airport. Richard Crossmans's diaries reveal how Jenkins said Parliament must find a way to stop them coming at all costs. In the ensuing debate in parliament it was stated that these Asians from east africa had not yet learned to master the toilet yet alone British values.

We're back to that mirror I mentioned earlier. Look in the mirror and see how you have become those very same racist, bigoted and hateful dinosaurs that sought to keep your parents out. Have a long hard think about that and then look in the mirror again with a clear mind. This time in the mirror you'll see our newly arrived brothers and sisters as yourselves. Respect yourself. Honour thyself.

[acsap]

I guess some people on this board think they are British and better than poor new immigrants. However, in the eyes of racist white people you are still "disgusting brown people". After reading this discussion board, I am realizing that white people are still more open minded than our "British" people. Maybe by hating these new immigrants you guys feel better about yourself and maybe in your eyes that make you more British, but in the end you are still smelly brown person. I know most Sikhs are nice and not racist, but after reading this I am not sure. I am trying not to generalize, I am sure I am dealing with a biased sample on this board.

Yes, every community has bad apples, but don't use these exceptions to paint all punjabi immigrants.

[HSD2]

I think people are reading the posts in tones that arent intended by the poster. I didnt mean to come across as racist or so strongly. My point is simple: emigration from Punjab out of South Asia is a recent concept. The British started it off with their draconian actions when they turned Punjab into a police state. When America won the Second World War their attitudes to immigration were adopted by others. No more Komagata Marus etc. But now things arent so rosy in the UK compared to other places. So why come here?

Most of the immigrants in the 60s were victims of Partition. They didnt want to stay in India. They also knew where they were going. They didnt end up in slave labour camps in Dubai. They didnt get locked up in basements of abandoned buildings by Russian mobsters and get tortured or killed. They didnt get left to float in boats around the Atlantic or smash their boats on the rocks and reefs of Western Australia. They didnt wander the Islamic <Edited> heartlands of Africa.

All of which our lot are doing. Is it racist to point out they were better off staying at home and making a go of East Punjab? Have WLS and Acsap watched the videos?

I dont think I'm better than the immigrants. If anything I'm telling them the truth. London is not the greatest city on Earth. It wouldnt even make my top five. Ask Sikhs about the last 5 years in the UK. Some English people look like their medieval ancestors now the Government arent dishing out benefits like its going out of fashion. Even the smart pakistanis are going to places like Norway for the benefits and kiddies as they cant support their massive families without UK benefits.

I get this is a very upsetting and highly unsettling issue for you WLS when compared to the Sikh victims of Partition or Sikh girls being groomed by su//eh. Seeing as you live in Southall, could you tell us what you do to help them and what we can do to support you or help the situation? Please, take your time, we are all ears.

[VanHelsingh]

@ WLS - Take it easy on the grandstanding, Singh. You've made your point. Don't lump me into the same group as those who look down on immigrants and behave as if we're superior than them for whatever reason, because that simply isn't me. An errant word here or there doesn't shouldn't serve to misrepresent me completely in this particular situation. So stop throwing around my name in this discussion as if I'm part of the problem because I'm not.

Like I said previously, our perception and opinions on people are formed by our experiences. If somebody has had overwhelmingly negative experiences then they aren't going to suddenly see the light because an arrogant, short-sighted forummer on a religious forum is shaming them into doing so. That's not how these things work. You've not walked in my shoes so you've no right to tell me my experiences are incorrect.

I'm guessing you have a vested interested in this topic, hence your vociferous and determined manner to defend the occasionally indefensible; maybe a brother-in-law or two have come over and are facing tough times? An uncle or another relative? I don't know, but like you've proven on another occasion you only feel passionate about issues that directly affect you and accordingly those you can relate to. So your relative lack of empathy outside of what you know has been highlighted once more.

You're a numbers and statistics man, I get that by now. That's an admirable skill, but it's also one of the reasons you're unable to see the finer details, or even the full gamut of colours in the whole spectrum. You're the Spock of this forum. You miss a lot of the nuance whilst spouting your text-book sources and dropping of names and dates.

It's about time you took off the blinkers and started behaving with a bit more consistency, because as HSD2 points out above, if there's one thing you lack it's consistency. It's about time you looked outside of your West London surroundings and mindset, because what happens there and in your world simply doesn't apply to the rest of us. The quicker you come to terms with that, the sooner you'll be able to reconcile yourself with many things. Burst that West London bubble and step forward, blinking into the real world. Alight from that high horse of yours.

[dalsingh101]

I had to laugh ate the anecdotes of the 'rich' illegals that some people are discussing here. People like to tell 'guppan' so there may be some guys on Dalsingh's building site who try and big themselves up as if they have 20 acres in Punjab but the truth is that for most the immigrant dream is the only dream they can pursue. These guys probably belong to poor farmer families where the daughter has to be married off by selling half an acre, one son eaks a living on a few acres along with taking a few more acres on hefty maamla or theka and one son goes abroad on the money of another acre sold off. This is how it has always was even in my grandparents time. The only difference being that not many people went abroad but there were job opportunities for one or two of the sons of each family to get into the Army or a government job like teaching or revenue work. Two or more of the sons would farm and the family income would be supplemented by the pay from sons in the army or other jobs. These are all shut off to people from a farming background even who have worked their backsides off studying.

Sure, maybe in your dream world all the immigrants are simple, poverty stricken peasants just trying to make a living, but unlike yourself, I've mixed with them, a lot. You get all sorts, the sons of police officers and army men aren't uncommon. And yes, sons of affluent zamindaars too. Plus, you know, maybe you're a bit a slow, but you can clearly tell poverty from back home, and you can clearly tell those who come from affluent backgrounds by the way they carry themselves and the pampered look about them. Poverty and struggle leaves marks on people - even in the so-called first world! You can see this all over the East End - similarly a prosperous upbringing is also clearly noticeable. Many of the guys I have encountered aren't the 'poor, struggling farmer your trying to paint above. Some of them have paid BIG MONEY to get here and come from well heeled families. They have enough over there not to be considered 'struggling' or 'humble' in any respective sense. Of course I'm not every last fauji is like this, but you're living in denial if you fail to see that a fair few of those coming over are from privileged backgrounds backhome and not the creatures of your imagination. The real poor of Panjab couldn't dream of getting here. A fair, few of the guys I meet will openly tell you they came here for 'shoonk' of coming abroad.

And please don't 'clutch your handbag to your chest aghast' and start throwing around accusations of being a 'racist' or 'self-hater' just because I've made a few observations based on real-life, on the ground interactions and experiences that don't fit into your own 'dreamland narrative'.

[proactive]

Dalsingh

When was the last time you were in Punjab and lived in a pind for a few weeks? I asked this before because of your ridiculous and ignorant comments you have made on other threads. You've never answered even though you ignorance let's me know what the answer is in advance.

Anything rather than relying on the guppan that you get taken in by in your area I actually know what happens in my pind and the pinds around. The area is in Ludhiana district so it's not actually a backward area. The only person from a well to do background that I know emigrated to the UK was back within a few months. Another who had a really good job never wanted to emigrate but his relations kept hassling him to come to the UK, he was back in Punjab within a few weeks as well. All the others are gone to the UK sometimes through chhotay desh because that is the only way they can make any progress. People in Punjab aren't as stupid as you think they are. The ones with the money wouldn't risk their lives in the back of trailers trying to get into the UK, all they need do is apply for a holiday visa, see the lay of the land and then leave. Even if they don't have relatives in the UK, with their money they could easily pay someone in the UK to sponsor their visa. Only in your ignorant world would you think that someone who is rich, used to living in a kothi, and living a care free life, would risk his life, live like a bhaiya, get sworn at work by people who he would have pushed around in India and possibly be homeless all so that he can get to chase Goriyan!!

I come across loads of faujis because of my work and I have rented a house to faujis for the last 5 years. I have had faujis do building work for me so I know the situation in with them. One fauji in his early 20s told me that his family had 20 acres in Punjab. That 20 acres is probably worth £500,000 with land prices as they are now. He also said he came here for shaunk and his family were well off and didn't need anything from him. His guppan were found out when I saw that he was sending money by western union every month to his family.

Because of your inexperience of what the ground reality is in Punjab, you don't realise that no Punjabi would ever admit to you that he came here because his family is poverty stricken. He would put the truth in any application for settlement but he would never tell the truth to someone like you. Most Punjabis are guppis, even if they know you are aware of the situation in Punjab they will still try and BS you about what the left behind in Punjab. The ignorance of the person listening to the guppan obviously makes it easier for the guppi to get away with his guppan!