Non Punjabi Sikhs

[N30S1NGH]

I think our own vanity is our own worst enemy, will defeat us.

We need to realize there is a diffference between genuine pride and gajini type of false pride/ego.

Guru Maharaj has said, ਗਰਬ ਗੰਜਨ ਦੁਸਟ ਭੰਜਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦਾਇਕ ਕਾਮ || Thou art the Destroyer of ego, the vanquisher of tyrants and performer of works leading to salvation.

Lets stay away from gajnini type of false pride..!!

[HSD2]

except self righteous, self loathing, self praising, self absorbed, self policing, self entitled, self privileged attitudes coming from punjabis.

The thing is that those are nothing to with Punjabism. Those are personal emotions found in individuals around the world. Punjabi culture/tribalism has been used as a whipping boy by Sikhs for far too long as a way of deflecting blame and absolving personal responsibility.

Her piece, written over 10 years ago before being dragged up, is highly personal. People dont say hi to her. Her son was too boisterous and a teacher had to put him in his place for the sake of the other kids. She demanded Gurudwara funds be used to do something no one in the community wanted. It reads like a restaurant review at times, and is highly subjective. Do we have to tiptoe around everyone's ego and personal hangups in desperation to get them to convert? At a time when so many people born into Sikh families are being hounded away from the faith by jatha politics, casteism, ageism, alcoholism etc?

In the UK so many people come to the Gurudwara and no one cares. Tourists go to India to see Gurudwaras. None of them seem to feel out of place. Maybe because they have no expectations of how they should be treated. Converting to Sikhi isnt a real life version of Avatar.

Also, we must think about issues of self-reliance and placement. Sikhs arent a first world nation like we were once. We cant get on horses and turn up in africa to stop people getting raped, we cant even stop it in the birthplace of Sikhi. Setting one's own house in order is the best way of being able to help others. You must admit that many issues faced today were not faced in the past when Sikhs were helping others. If you disagree, maybe it is time for Amritdharis to form an Expeditionary Force to go to 'Africa' and solve issues they find.

Recently Sikh activist network did amazing job of showing support of first nation indians here in Canada who are also fighting for their rights. They truly showed by their actions- khalsa represent all oppressed minorities not just their own. Thats is true khalsa way and true way to win public opinion of masses. Khalsa is there to serve humanity not there to serve their own tribalism..!!!!!!

I heard about IdleNoMore, and think that it was right for Sikhs to support it. But the article talks about 'Africa' like it is one big country. Many westerners (black,white and even Sikh) see it as a poor, giant country constantly needing outsiders to do it for them. The truth is large parts of Africa are well run, Africans are hard working and only a few places are in dire need of external help. But that narrative does not fit in with the western colonial/missionary/exploitative mindset. So the idea carries on and Sikhs are sucked into it, just like we were sucked into so many wars against foreigners when the British ruled us. I dont want the Khalsa to be hijacked again.

I would recommend the bibi to go and form her own Gurudwara with its own rules on smiling and saying hello to everyone so they feel validated, but seeing as what American Sikhs have done with appropriating yoga, pictures of the Golden Temple, Sikhi terms/philosophy etc in order to make money, I am wary of doing so.

In America they have models for Victoria Secrets who walk along the catwalk wearing lingerie and Native American headwear. The headgear was used to show warriors and bravery by the Natives but today is a symbol of Appropriation. It's a bit rich for Americans who squat on their land to tell us to not bother with our own human rights or Native's rights but to buy into what is important to them.

[Mehtab Singh]

Every now and then I receive "Gursikhi prem" in the form of sarcastic comments which I get from fellow Punjabi Gursikhs, and those affectionate and indirect taunts do nothing but mock my non-Sikh background . Thank God I can understand Punjabi, so I can not only understand whats being said, I am also spared the extra mockery of not being a Punjabi! And trust me, If I ever get mad, I know the response I'm gonna get. "Lehhh yaar Mehtab Singh tu te nraaj e ho gya, asi te tenu makhaul karde si, tu te sadda veer aa, sannu tere te maan aa, tu sadde naalo changa aa" etc etc. So predictable! LOL! :D

[N30S1NGH]

HSD2 bro,

That article piece may be personal, intention may be personal but one cannot deny elements of truth in the message regarding punjabi community. Look don't take me wrong guys, i deeply care for my punjabi community so its only natural for me to see them moving fwd with khalsa ideals as opposed to stuck in their tribalism..same thing the person who wrote 90% of indians (which includes punjabis) are fools , surely by looks of it it may seem arrogrant but once you read it and look behind the message and he cares and he wants indians to think out side of box ....he is spot on many things..we should look at the message as opposed to shooting the messenger..!!

[dalsingh101]

One thing that shocks me is the general failure of apnay to critically reflect on our own community. I mean, sometimes it appears like even highly intelligent brothers like HSD, avoid facing up to ugly truths about our tribalism. And that don't bode well, because if someone generally intelligent and perceptive like that falls at this hurdle, what chance in hell as an average pendu got of overcoming this type of stuff.

It just seems like a classic case of dissonance to me. I know it is uncomfortable to face up to our personal and corporate weaknesses - but it must be done relentlessly and ruthlessly right now - for the greater good.

[HSD2]

One thing that shocks me is the general failure of apnay to critically reflect on our own community. I mean, sometimes it appears like even highly intelligent brothers like HSD, avoid facing up to ugly truths about our tribalism. And that don't bode well, because if someone generally intelligent and perceptive like that falls at this hurdle, what chance in hell as an average pendu got of overcoming this type of stuff.

It just seems like a classic case of dissonance to me. I know it is uncomfortable to face up to our personal and corporate weaknesses - but it must be done relentlessly and ruthlessly right now - for the greater good.

We can call it tribalism or toddlerism or retardation or wilful ignorance. We've been calling it a lot of things for ages. Most people know it's wrong. But what use is a label if we cannot do anything about the individuals who practice it?

A lot of what falls under tribalism is just personal issues. Neo came up with a good list of them earlier, all of which could be held against an individual if one had proof. But where does bashing the tribalism pot get us? Most Sikhs already look down on Punjabism in a weirdly racist way. 'Oh no not more tribalism, us goody goody Sikhs would never do that!' they chime. Dont you guys see how shrewd/deceitful people and many in the older generation and now in the younger generation deflect any kind of personal responsibility by projecting it on an ethereal and defenceless 'thing'?

I have no problems with discussing these issues, or entertaining the effects they will have. By facing up to them we cant keep looking for scapegoats and blamesponges to make us feel that we can do no wrong.

Not sure what any of this has to do with the article though, but y'all get me now?

[N30S1NGH]

self righteous, self loathing, self praising, self absorbed, self policing, self entitled, self privileged attitudes coming from punjabis.

Neo came up with a good list of them earlier, all of which could be held against an individual if one had proof.

You are right it could be held against an individual but issue is much more deeper than that.. who prepurates these attitudes at the first place? is not true that these attitudes get nurtured/encouraged by punjabi tribal community at large....sorry if we are not speaking against it and mute about it we are as much guilty as the next guy who is doing it...have we as community ever thought of "acknowledging there is wrong doing let alone condemn them? phew, we don't even know that they exist...we lot are quite oblivious and surely we love to live in in denial...

Do we ever for even second thought a wait a comment, lets step back lets condemn this act/attitudes/disgusting under tone racist/self righteous attitudes??

This has effected all the way up to chain of commands- our leaders of the panth because of punjabi tribalism..only recently, finally our jathedar of sri akaal takth jathedar gurbachan singh ji acknowledged that there is a katarvad (attitudes mentioned above) in the panth and its the problem..!!

[dalsingh101]

By facing up to them we cant keep looking for scapegoats and blamesponges to make us feel that we can do no wrong.

This is where you are wrong. You see it as people trying to point a finger and make out as if they are perfect. That is simplifying things to imbecile levels. If someone points out the fact that we do have tribal, insular tendencies and that some subgroups amongst us are worse than others (corporately) it doesn't mean that I think other groups or Sikhs in general do no wrong. That is an issue in your head only. Whether you like it or not, sometimes the finger has to be directed specifically at causal factors - and it may be an uncomfortable fact that the guilty party are close to home. The last thing we need in such scenarios is defensiveness of the undefendable.

Failing to directly identify, point out, isolate and condemn sources of certain negative trends, means we have no chance of improving things.

We talk about tribalism etc. and it IS valid. There ARE mechanisms in the literary world, at the family level, at the 'folk-culture level' that clearly foster this tendency and you don't have to look far to find it. It's not even that difficult to explain in terms of egocentrism either.

We have a lot going on at the micro and macro level that foster unhealthy, toxic attitudes towards each other and certain others and you, me, we all need to face up to this, for the greater good.

Especially as we can ALL see how much damage it is causing now.

[HSD2]

NeoSingh Ji, when is the last time Sikhs here walked around Lahore freely? Or how many of us living in the West have spent the majority of our lives in East Punjab. I get what some people say about the backwardness of East Punjab and it's domestic culture. It was a fairly valid point amongst the refugees of Partition when they were in East Punjab. But how can this be true of us in the West? If anything we are at fault and our blame of tribalism is just cover to allow people to divert attention - who has ever owned up to tribalism? Tribalism is the affinity for cultural/ethnic ties over national ones. The list is not one about culture or ethnicity but individuals. People who propagate it are as guilty as the ones who practice it (is there a difference?) and need to be named and shamed. I've said it before we can chase each other with our handbags out like Aunties or we can name and shame the culprits and move to a future where these people and those who practice such stupidity are sidelined.

Do we ever for even second thought a wait a comment, lets step back lets condemn this act/attitudes/disgusting under tone racist/self righteous attitudes??

Yes lets condemn the individual. Lets condemn the racism. Lets condemn the hate. But to blame an overarching imaginary backdrop lets the culprits off very lightly.

This has effected all the way up to chain of commands- our leaders of the panth because of punjabi tribalism..only recently, finally our jathedar of sri akaal takth jathedar gurbachan singh ji acknowledged that there is a katarvad (attitudes mentioned above) in the panth and its the problem..!!

Exactly - Sikhs are waking up to the fact we cant blame such frivolous things when it is us who are the ones who are doing it. Why cant Sikhs take personal responsibility for themselves, their family, their community? It's not as if Non-Punjabi Sikhs solve their problems by blaming Angloculture or Afghan culture is it?

This is where you are wrong. You see it as people trying to point a finger and make out as if they are perfect. That is simplifying things to imbecile levels. If someone points out the fact that we do have tribal, insular tendencies and that some subgroups amongst us are worse than others (corporately) it doesn't mean that I think other groups or Sikhs in general do no wrong. That is an issue in your head only. Whether you like it or not, sometimes the finger has to be directed specifically at causal factors - and it may be an uncomfortable fact that the guilty party are close to home. The last thing we need in such scenarios is defensiveness of the undefendable.

I think we discussed tribalism of SikhAwareness and I wasnt really convinced by the deeper explanation of what tribalism is. I'm not saying one group is above blame or not, I'm also not trying to divide along caste or nationality lines. My point is that when faced with these views they have to be challenged on an individual to individual basis rather than just grumbling about how we are self inducing tribalism.

Nor am I trying to defend the undefendable. But what happens when a white or black Sikh starts to do such things? Have they been infected with Punjabism? Is there an antidote? Should we just kill ourselves en masse as a nation to save ourselves from being infected and having to face up that even the highest of high practice what they consider lowly outsiders to do?

Failing to directly identify, point out, isolate and condemn sources of certain negative trends, means we have no chance of improving things.

I have said that too. But I like to at least be very specific about it rather than create free room for people to just point fingers in a general direction. I am not saying you do this, but everytime an issue comes up I always see Sikhs from all corners of the spectrum resort to nothing more than armchair grumbling. Deliberately noisy enough to make them seem bothered, not noisy enough to make up for actions.

We talk about tribalism etc. and it IS valid. There ARE mechanisms in the literary world, at the family level, at the 'folk-culture level' that clearly foster this tendency and you don't have to look far to find it. It's not even that difficult to explain in terms of egocentrism either.

But when I say if these are the causes, why dont we move past them, I get the argument that it will still continue. If that is the case, it means others believe it is genetic whereas I believe it to be purely environmental. If I am wrong then there is no hope - you cant change your DNA. If I am right, then we as a people need to close ranks, form a unified nation, point out our internal troublemakers, shield ourselves from negative influence and move towards an environment that doesnt create the breeding ground for the negativity which infests us.

We have a lot going on at the micro and macro level that foster unhealthy, toxic attitudes towards each other and certain others and you, me, we all need to face up to this, for the greater good.

Especially as we can ALL see how much damage it is causing now.

No one is denying that. But again without an effort to explain the specifics to the masses, all this will come across as armchair grumbling or worse still that kind of 'I dont do that' kind of asscovering that westerners love to do to convince their conscience and ego that they have no personal responsibility.

[rrss]

Some highly disappointing responses to my post, in spite of attempts to discuss the subject, it veered off topic in the main. I deliberately didn't set out a framework for discussion, nevertheless I was disappointed that several key issues were simply ignored. Perhaps it takes one to know one? As an outsider coming into Sikhi, the level of false rituals, Houmai, dogma etc that I see around me is surprising. However, I will refrain from commenting on the posts as it will no doubt lead to an unnecessary bout of fisticuffs. Nevertheless, thank you for taking the time to contribute.

No doubt modern Sikhi will grow as time goes on and people will rediscover the teachings of the Guru. I am saddened but I have full faith in the God, I know that the Khalsa will prevail.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Admin note: Please can this topic be closed