Guru's Titles....Dilgeer's views

[DSGj]

... if you go by gurbani why don't you call Guru Ramdass Sodhi...

Many people do say Guru RamDas Sodhi.

But they even go a step further and say Dhan Dhan Sri Guru RamDas Sahib Jee Sodhi Sultaan.

Many raagis say Sodhi Sultaan out of love.

If you don't believe me, watch/listen to Keertan from Darbar Sahib, there are some examples of this.

Usually it is said at the beginning of the Raagi's Keertan turn, while praising Guru Sahib.

After searching for an example, I found one. Here is an amazing group. Bhai Jagtar Singh Jee and Jatha.

...We are so habitual using Dev that we now can't replace it with Sahib.

Again, I don't know why you want to remove Dev completely. If someone wants to say Dev, it's fine. If you want to use Sahib instead, go for it. If someone wants to use both, that's great too. If someone doesn't want to use either, then that's their choice. But to say one is "wrong" and the other is "right" is very hypocritical and to go out of the way and make this some sort of major issue is very silly. Dilgeer clearly says that Dev and Sri are wrong and that it should be Sahib. Yet there is nowhere in Guru Granth Sahib Jee where it says Guru Nanak Sahib. Even Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaars, where does it say Sahib right after Guru Sahib's name? Nowhere most likely. Sahib (just like Dev, Sri, etc) is used for praise. This whole thing is a silly argument by Dilgeer.

GURU GRANTH DEV :biggrin2: GURU GRANTH SAHIB..... It is in gurbani that is why we use DEV TO SHOW RESPECT with Guru Arjan Dev, Guru Angad Dev but r not we biased towards others guru sahibaan like we don't remember them saying Guru Hargobind jeeo Maharaj or Guru Granth jeeo. Maharaj.

How are we biased and not giving praise to the other forms of Guru Jee? Every body/name gets utmost respect. Every Gurpurab is celebrated at Darbar Sahib, the other Takhats and main Gurdwaras. Now, just because your local Gurdwara or local Sangat might not show the same amount of affection and love, doesn't mean that it's like that everywhere.

Again, it's a non-issue. You will find Gurdwaras with Dev, Sahib, Shah, etc in their titles.

Check out this for an eye-opener.

There is Gurdwara Baba Nanak Shah and Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Darbar.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70415-save-the-historical-gurdwaras-and-temples-of-punjab-pakistan/

https://www.facebook.com/savethegurdwaras

These are just two examples of many.

Once again, there is no issue.

People will say whatever according to their upbringing, environment, culture, traditions, languages, etc.

Dhan Dhan Baba Nanak Shah Faqir. Hindu Ka Guru, Musalman Ka Pir. :smile2:

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Check out this for an eye-opener.

I know what I speak or write. Its just an opinion nothing more than that. I happily replace Dev with Sahib. That's it.

You just can't stand Harjinder Singh Dilgeer, your post proves that. Always look with broader mind you hate someone or u you love some one.

[DSGj]

What are you talking about?

You ran out of excuses.

Every point I brought up with logical and sensible proof.

Up till now you appreciated what I said, and now that I put further proof, you're getting all mad. LOL, please, have some consistency.

For example, you said:

Note of Dilgeer carries all the reference which were used by Sarbloh and he(Sarbloh) rather gave his well researched reference from gurbani for his view. Lines from Sukhmani is confusing me. The point is clear I appreciate his point of view and Sarbloh's different opinion.

And you're telling me to look with a broader mind?

I'm the one who read the whole article, analyzed it, put hours of research into it. I read every one of everyone's posts word-for-word in this thread.

I really don't know what kind of open mind you're talking about.

I read what Dilgeer had to say, what you said, what everyone else said. And I answered it.

You just ran out of excuses each and every time. And now with my most recent post, it seems as though you have hit a dead end, especially with the Guru RamDas Sodhi argument. That's why you're so mad now.

I gave some sort of evidence/proof in every one of my posts.

Give me a break, don't be a sore loser.

I understand that Dilgeer is your role model and everything, but come on, you can do better than that.

And you're right, I can't stand Dilgeer.

He's a liar, a hypocrite, 2 faced and much more.

If you ever critically analyzed his literature, you would know.

But I guess you didn't, because you're blinded by his sweet-talk.

For the record, he used to be alright...but for the past 10 years or so, he's done a complete U-Turn in terms of his stance on most subjects in Sikhi.

His literature is proof of that. I will save that for another topic. Let's stick to the point in this thread.

[Jonny101]

For the record, he used to be alright...but for the past 10 years or so, he's done a complete U-Turn in terms of his stance on most subjects in Sikhi.

His literature is proof of that. I will save that for another topic. Let's stick to the point in this thread.

That's true. The old Dilgeer was a good guy. I don't know why he made such a U turn. His current (Kala Afghanist) views are a contrast to his old views which were in accordance to Gurmat. It's shame really. He's a good writer and could have been such an asset to the Panth, but he has destroyed much of his credibility because of his kala Afghanist views. I hope Guru Jee gives him SuMatt and brings him back to mainstream Gurmat thinking.

Some of the things I don't agree with him besides his Kala Afghanist views is that he accuses anyone he does not agree as an RSS agent(without presenting any proof). From his writings I have seen that he genuinely loves Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, but he hates Taksal. He hates Shaheed Sukhdev Singh Babbar and his group of Babbars, but he likes Shaheed Talwinder Singh Babbar and his group of Babbars. I don't understand his thought process on some of these topics sometimes. But his political views about India and it's treatment of Sikhs and Punjab state are spot on.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

What are you talking about?

You ran out of excuses.

Every point I brought up with logical and sensible proof.

You just ran out of excuses each and every time. And now with my most recent post, it seems as though you have hit a dead end, especially with the Guru RamDas Sodhi argument. That's why you're so mad now.

And you're right, I can't stand Dilgeer.

Raagi jatha proof. Just get some more proof GURU TEG BAHADUR DEV, GURU HARRAI DEV, GURU HARGOBIND DEV.

If you call Guru Nanak Dev, why not call Guru Harkrishan Dev because its not in Gurbani.

We are talking about Guru's, need to check and write before putting an argument.

In gurbani dev is used and not used with Guru Sahibaan. Guru called their predecessor Guru's, Guru parbraham parmeshwar.

Sometime its just Arjan, Amar so will you call your Guru's like this because it is written in gurbani.

Answer to the questions and stick to the point

Your first post you made, cleared that u can't stand dilgeer. Its not about using Dev or Sahib, its about u rejecting Harjinder Singh Dilgeer's idea. 75% of sikhi.

[DSGj]

LOL, wow,

you clearly have changed your attitude all of a sudden.

And you're repeating the same things over and over again.

You keep on saying it's not in Gurbani, and I keep on showing you it is.

Stop repeating the same things over and over again.

Your first post you made, cleared that u can't stand dilgeer. Its not about using Dev or Sahib, its about u rejecting Harjinder Singh Dilgeer's idea. 75% of sikhi

75% of Sikhi is Dilgeer's idea?

Please....

If you know better,,,,what phrase am I looking for...oh yeah, the one you used,,"answer to the questions and stick to the point".

I have asked you a couple of times in this thread. WHERE IS SAHIB written?

I HAVE SHOWN YOU SRI, DEV, and many more!

Where is Sahib, please show it even ONCE attached to the Gurus name.

Next you're going to say "don't even write Sahib", "don't even write Guru", "write Professor", "write doctor".

LOL.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

LOL, wow,

you clearly have changed your attitude all of a sudden.

And you're repeating the same things over and over again.

You keep on saying it's not in Gurbani, and I keep on showing you it is.

Stop repeating the same things over and over again.

75% of Sikhi is Dilgeer's idea?

Please....

If you know better,,,,what phrase am I looking for...oh yeah, the one you used,,"answer to the questions and stick to the point".

I have asked you a couple of times in this thread. WHERE IS SAHIB written?

I HAVE SHOWN YOU SRI, DEV, and many more!

Where is Sahib, please show it even ONCE attached to the Gurus name.

Next you're going to say "don't even write Sahib", "don't even write Guru", "write Professor", "write doctor".

LOL.

Lol, Who claimed we should call it Dev because it is written in gurbani. Sahib is in respect and consistent with every Guru, not like u Stick to Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev, Guru Arjan Dev to show respect because Dev is used in gurbani. U never answered Guru Teg Bahadur Dev, Guru Harrai Dev, Guru Harkishan Dev, Guru Hargobind Dev, Guru Amardass Dev because u didn't find any logic or quote from gurbani, Isn't it unfair from ur side using Dev to show respect to only three Guru Sahibaan because Dev is not used in Gurbani with other Guru Sahibaan u won't use it. You pick and choose question and answer them. Better answer them all.

Pg 864 Read it

ਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਦੇਉ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਉ ॥ Every Guru is Dev use it with every Guru.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥ Guru Nanak Sahib is himself God.

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥ You know what does that mean.

I keep my eyes open and broader mind to grasp things.

[taran0]

simple answer

GUR JAISAA NAHEE KO DEV

there is no deity higher then the Guru

Guru Granth Sahbi ji is our Gur-Dev -

theres nothing wrong with using dev - its like nitpicking you could start to use Guru Nanak Bedi , but then they wouldn't like that either - whats with people these days all of a sudden we want to change things as if the praatan singhs were idiots and got everything wrong..... They werent! they were solid gave their lives for Sikhi and that means a whole lot more then dilgeer and his cronies...... Many other faiths still refer to Guru Nanak DEV Sahib JI as Baba Nanak ...

Gurdev Mataa, Gurdev Pittaa !

[Raaj.Karega.Khalsa]

... you could start to use Guru Nanak Bedi , but then they wouldn't like that either - ...

Good one!

[Jonny101]

In gurbani dev is used and not used with Guru Sahibaan. Guru called their predecessor Guru's, Guru parbraham parmeshwar.

In the start of Sukhmani Sahib, Sri Guru Arjun Dev Jee has called Sri Guru Ramdas Das Jee as Sri GurDev(sri Gurdeve Nameh). The first 3 Gurus were also called with different titles, all different from one another. According to Dilgeer's understanding of Sikhi, the 5th Guru is wrong for doing so. You can either trust Sri Guru Arjun dev Jee's understanding of Sikhi or Dilgeer's understanding of Sikhi. Choice is yours.