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Say no to Guru's pictures


panthicunity
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So is your issue with the paintings the accuracy? Nobody is really saying that the pics are necessarily accurate but are representations. If I take a photo, an accurate photo of guru Granth sahib Ji, is that suddenly ok?

The question you ask ... Simple answer - teach them.

Again I return to the baby and bath water analogy.

Guru sahib was against idol worship, this is worshipping an inanimate object that cannot interact with you as if it were god, etc. Iv never heard of a sikh calling a painting god. If they do, teach them.

Some will argue that Guru Granth Dahib Ji da satkar and seva is idol worship, will there be calls to stop this also?

Neo Singhs post is great at raising the wider n deeper issues and worth reading.

people say the gurus categorically said no to paintings of them, where? Does anybody have this pangti?

As I said earlier it's another pointless mini jihad. If people got issues with Sikhs doin idol worship go fix the prob of them going to fake gurus this might be a more worthwhile fight then trying to remove representations of what the gurus, shaheeds etc may have looked like. Having taught young kids about the gurus through use of pics, I know they are useful.

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Guru Granth Sahib is JAAGDI JYOT OF 10 GURU SAHIBAAN if u can't see them in Gurbani there is problem. So if one have to see 10 Guru Sahibaan and they should get a photo of Guru Granth Sahib and hang some where in house. Or see them in Gurbani. Guru Granth Guru panth. (If you want to see me in nirgun swaroop see me in Guru Granth Sahib and u want to see me sargun swaroop see me in panth. Raise the panth and remove the photo. ) I might be qouting something wrong here but one might remember some one from this quote. If not god help you.

It is a crying shame how much people have no respect for Dhan Dhan sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj. You are so lucky Guru ji is present in all Gurdwaras. Go sit at his feet and listen to Gurbani. Tell me honestly if Guru ji was in human form and visited your local Gurdwara, would you fight amongst yourselves for the 'best seat' in the darbar? Would you rather cry than to see him leave? Would you fall at his feet and refuse to leave? Would you beg guru ji for amrit? Would you beg him to sing gurbani and do katha? Probably yes. Now ask yourself if you treat the Shabad Guru, 10 patshaian ki jyot as real guru or as an idol, to be ocassionally matha theked whilst trying to visualise a painting of guru in human form.

Our soul sees the Shabad Guru and gains a lot from it. Our pathetic human eyes see the guru's human form and do not gain anything from it.

Honestly this topic should be closed, it is anti gurmat to diss Guru ji (Guru Granth sahib ji if you need reminding).

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The issue is not just about accuracy. It is about praying to pics.

Teach them all you want, some people don't wanna listen. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I have seen Sikhs praying to pics of Guru Sahiban. Instead of reading Guru Granth Sahib, they just stand in front of the pic and do a short ardas.

Guru Granth Sahib ji da satkar is not idol worship because guru ji is not an idol. Adi Granth has teachings within it that you can learn from and apply to your life. It has the writings of almost all the Gurus. If that isn't worthy of reverence, then what is?

Is there any painting of Guru Sahiban done while they were alive? Has it been verified?

Why do you need these representations anyway? To decorate your house? If it is for educational purposes, then I don't mind paintings of historical scenes where Guru ji isn't the main focus. What education can you receive, just by looking at a portrait?

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Great posts AK-47 veer..just to add to AK-47 post.


The problem is our approach is short -sighted/highly damaging based on sheer insecurity/parnioa not to mention totally based on knee <banned word filter activated> reaction when we decide to simply ban/remove pictures as it's inadvertently or advertently destroying our pictorial/historical/artistic/iconography sikh hertiage. RSS does not need to do anything, they are sitting and watching with popcorns and pop and seeing panth being damaged within by self destruction (destruction of sikh heritage artistic impression) by sikhs themselves, panth being damaged by self inflicted wounds by sikhs themselves.


Here are two different approaches to address picture being used as idol worship:


Modern day approach: Simply destroy/ban/remove pictures, sargun references from the panth- that's what handful of sikhs influenced by victorian/anglican/protestant/evangelic/teja singh ideology did and still do and at the end failed and always will fail, because the problem isn't the pictures at all..but rather people's perception/mindset wrapping their head around many aspects which confines vahiguroo ji. One can simply remove the pictures but then what?


Were they able to remove sargun/visible references- visual idolization from people's head-perception/mindset? NO!!! Why?......Here is why- our human mind visualizes everything and anything, get easily caught up building up contrast, confining things - make all sorts of hindrance/road blocks in our head and we wrap our head around all sort of things, ultimately falling into traps of subtle forms of idol worshipping which is same as idol worshiping in physical form.


Puratan approach: No need to destroy/remove pictures, iconography, frescos, artistic expressions, pictures in puratan manuscripts etc, because puratan approach understands it's not the picture which is the issue at hand, but issue lies at individual perception/mindset towards it. Puratan approach/parchar works directly with individual consciousness perception, helps an individual to change their perception- rise above from it.


If an individual is beginner puratan parchar lets the individual draw contrast from the pictures and let individual seeks devotion/inspriation from it but at the same time, advising many subtle notions or dangers of idol worshipping such as confining vahiguroo in a picture that vahiguroo divinity is sargun, nirgun and shabad form all intertwin with each other.


Puratan parchar encourages an individual to rise above from individual perception of idolization wrapping their head around only one aspect of Vahiguroo divinity as divinity itself is never ending flow, how can individual perception/consciousness idolize an flow?? So when people start realizing -through puratan parchar- deep theological sermons, when they start realizing that that divinity is not confined to pictures/visual idiolization/visual contrast in people's head so their perception naturally rises upwards by divine vahiguroo grace, as they are slowly at their own pace start connecting with divine flow.

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if U want to c SGPC run gurudwara having pic of Guru Harkishan and people go there and vow to the photo near prakash of Guru Granth Sahib I can certainly post that. There is quote " Stop praising what your grandparents did, start worrying what your grandchildren will do". Think about it. We can argue as much as we can, WE HAVE GURU THAT IS GURU GRANTH SAHIB IF YOU WANT TO BE NEAR TO GURU, GET A SWAROOP OF GURU SAHIB IN YOUR HOUSE. If you want he should be always near to you, memorize gurbani. Guru Nanak's guru SHABAD GURU AND OUR'S IS ALSO SHABAD GURU. My opinion is we should say not to pics ONLY OF GURU'S not of any historic event.

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Puratan approach: No need to destroy/remove pictures, iconography, frescos, artistic expressions, pictures in puratan manuscripts etc, because puratan approach understands it's not the picture which is the issue at hand, but issue lies at individual perception/mindset towards it. Puratan approach/parchar works directly with individual consciousness perception, helps an individual to change their perception- rise above from it.

Those frescos you are referring to depict historical scenes. Nobody is saying they should be destroyed. The matter at hand are the portraits (mostly made by Sobha Singh) which people pray to.

If an individual is beginner puratan parchar lets the individual draw contrast from the pictures and let individual seeks devotion/inspriation from it but at the same time, advising many subtle notions or dangers of idol worshipping such as confining vahiguroo in a picture that vahiguroo divinity is sargun, nirgun and shabad form all intertwin with each other.

That's the same argument given by Hindus for allowing idol worship, a practice which is not condoned in the Hindu scriptures. Initially they allowed it because they say it is a way for people with low spirituality to focus on God. They also believe that God is in all creation, therefore praying to a rock is not wrong. Guru Granth Sahib ji has elevated us above such thinking.

Puratan parchar encourages an individual to rise above from individual perception of idolization wrapping their head around only one aspect of Vahiguroo divinity as divinity itself is never ending flow, how can individual perception/consciousness idolize an flow?? So when people start realizing -through puratan parchar- deep theological sermons, when they start realizing that that divinity is not confined to pictures/visual idiolization/visual contrast in people's head so their perception naturally rises upwards by divine vahiguroo grace, as they are slowly at their own pace start connecting with divine flow.

Again, this argument is used is Hinduism. They say that people will slowly graduate from worshipping idols, to realizing the Supreme Brahman, or "divine flow" as you have put it. Guru ji taught us that we can realize God by meditating on Naam and contemplating gurbani.

I wish we could stick to the crux of the debate. How do we get people to stop praying to pics of Guru Sahiban? If there is no logical solution, then the only thing that is left to do is remove these portraits, at least from our gurdwaras.

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