Free will

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

what is free will and what is hukam? Free will, I will not put my hand in boiling water. His Hukam, you fought hard but couple of people put your hand in boiling water.

[luckysingh99]

I know, that is just my own self-made little version, but I still don't know if anyone understands it or agrees/disagrees with it !!

It 's just my own interpretation and it is very likely that otthers have a much better and easier explanation.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

I know, that is just my own self-made little version, but I still don't know if anyone understands it or agrees/disagrees with it !!

It 's just my own interpretation and it is very likely that otthers have a much better and easier explanation.

Every explanation should be according to gurmat be it be closer or not, can be difference of opinion of individuals.

[luckysingh99]

Gurbani mentions your deeds and actions, it doesn't have such a term for 'free-will' as this is a very western term that we use.

However, it's our understanding that we incorporate with what gurbani tells us and vice versa.

I will try and give some gurbani references some time later on that point out to our actions and deeds performed and to his Hukam.

What is always tricky with this discussion is coming to terms with where everyone's personal understanding is at.

As mentioned by Gurpreet penji above, it is very easy to find contradictions when one looks at certain quotes.

I have had this conversation on many many occasions with gursikhs of which some I would say are truly enlightened, and I have experienced the huge confusion that a lot of us get into with this matter.

Sometimes it helps to try and undertstand examples of Gurus, shaheeds and us sikhs!

I will try later to reference a little more if I have time.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Gurbani mentions your deeds and actions, it doesn't have such a term for 'free-will' as this is a very western term that we use.

However, it's our understanding that we incorporate with what gurbani tells us and vice versa.

I will try and give some gurbani references some time later on that point out to our actions and deeds performed and to his Hukam.

What is always tricky with this discussion is coming to terms with where everyone's personal understanding is at.

As mentioned by Gurpreet penji above, it is very easy to find contradictions when one looks at certain quotes.

I have had this conversation on many many occasions with gursikhs of which some I would say are truly enlightened, and I have experienced the huge confusion that a lot of us get into with this matter.

Sometimes it helps to try and undertstand examples of Gurus, shaheeds and us sikhs!

I will try later to reference a little more if I have time.

SURE BROTHER, WE R HERE TO LEARN, NOT TO PROVE POINT. RABB RAAKHAA.

[Guest]

Can't Waheguru control everything we do?If not then Waheguru isn't that powerful.

What I think is that we have no free will.Waheguru Ji is the one who makes desicions even if its good or bad.He controls us to kill,he controls us to cry.Everything is done by him.He is the all knowing just as only five mentioned.

The only way to know is if Waheguru told us.

[luckysingh99]

Can't Waheguru control everything we do?If not then Waheguru isn't that powerful.

What I think is that we have no free will.Waheguru Ji is the one who makes desicions even if its good or bad.He controls us to kill,he controls us to cry.Everything is done by him.He is the all knowing just as only five mentioned.

The only way to know is if Waheguru told us.

Why are we acountable for our deeds ?

Why karma ?

Why the 'apey beejh apey hi khao' (reap what you sow) ?

If Only Waheguru, controls every single action, then every one would react the same in every situation!

But instead we all act differently in similar situations !

How about tyranny and oppression ?

It's actually not that easy to explain, but until we become Gurmukh, then we remain self-willed manmukhs.

As manmukhs we need the self-will to take action and perform deeds that can help us attain Gurmukh status.

A quick search in srigranth. org for 'manmuk' and you can see hundreds of shabads that point to the deeds of self-willed manmukhs.

[Only five]

Why are we acountable for our deeds ?

Why karma ?

Why the 'apey beejh apey hi khao' (reap what you sow) ?

What dies and what lives? Atma can never be destroyed as Gurbani says and as Katha upanishads state. Neither does Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj die. Are we the atma or is the atma us? Or is the Atma, Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj? If it was us then it would surely die. When we refer to us, me, we, or I. Are we speaking of the Atma is I or are we pointing to something else. If we are the atma, then what is there to judge and what is good karma and bad karma......the atma never dies and is already Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. When I say "I" or when another person says "i" they are saying....I am the mind. The mind surely dies, lives, and is accountable for its deeds and it reaps what you sow. A person is the mind as they have not united with Akal Purakh. A person get's judged by Akal Purakh because the person has not been blessed with Satguru's grace. The person is not in union. There are laws set up by Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Karma, reap as you sow, and will be held accountable for you deeds. These laws were put in place to govern the mind.

If Only Waheguru, controls every single action, then every one would react the same in every situation!

But instead we all act differently in similar situations !

No, not at all because in the law of Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj, each person was given a certain karma. The question you asked above can be expanded. Hukam controls everything, then why even create the universe, where humans are judged. Also as Gurbani states that Atma is Akal Purakh, then why even create the universe, where the people are judged? Why did certain people get good karma and why did certain people get worse karma? These question are answered only be Gurmukhs and the best answer I could come up with right now is that it is Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj's play. He set the stage and is the director. The director knows what will happen in the play as he is directing the play, but he still smiles watching his play.

How about tyranny and oppression ?

Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj did it. Again nothing is outside is Hukam.

It's actually not that easy to explain, but until we become Gurmukh, then we remain self-willed manmukhs.

As manmukhs we need the self-will to take action and perform deeds that can help us attain Gurmukh status.

A quick search in srigranth. org for 'manmuk' and you can see hundreds of shabads that point to the deeds of self-willed manmukhs.

Manmukh does not mean we are self-willed because there is no self. The self is Atma and the Atma is Vaheguru. There is an atma, there is Vaheguru and then there is a mind. Before the mind completes a wrong action Satguru says it is called manmat. But when the mind completes the action then it is called manmukh. Meaning you have become the wrong action. Mukh in literal translations means face, but Satguru is saying that the man (mind) has taken a form as completing an action that goes against Gurmat. Manmat is saying that that the person (the form) has a understanding (mat) that is being followed by the mind and is not follow Satguru (Gurmat).

[Guest]

What dies and what lives? Atma can never be destroyed as Gurbani says and as Katha upanishads state. Neither does Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj die. Are we the atma or is the atma us? Or is the Atma, Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj? If it was us then it would surely die. When we refer to us, me, we, or I. Are we speaking of the Atma is I or are we pointing to something else. If we are the atma, then what is there to judge and what is good karma and bad karma......the atma never dies and is already Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. When I say "I" or when another person says "i" they are saying....I am the mind. The mind surely dies, lives, and is accountable for its deeds and it reaps what you sow. A person is the mind as they have not united with Akal Purakh. A person get's judged by Akal Purakh because the person has not been blessed with Satguru's grace. The person is not in union. There are laws set up by Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Karma, reap as you sow, and will be held accountable for you deeds. These laws were put in place to govern the mind.

No, not at all because in the law of Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj, each person was given a certain karma. The question you asked above can be expanded. Hukam controls everything, then why even create the universe, where humans are judged. Also as Gurbani states that Atma is Akal Purakh, then why even create the universe, where the people are judged? Why did certain people get good karma and why did certain people get worse karma? These question are answered only be Gurmukhs and the best answer I could come up with right now is that it is Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj's play. He set the stage and is the director. The director knows what will happen in the play as he is directing the play, but he still smiles watching his play.

Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj did it. Again nothing is outside is Hukam.

Manmukh does not mean we are self-willed because there is no self. The self is Atma and the Atma is Vaheguru. There is an atma, there is Vaheguru and then there is a mind. Before the mind completes a wrong action Satguru says it is called manmat. But when the mind completes the action then it is called manmukh. Meaning you have become the wrong action. Mukh in literal translations means face, but Satguru is saying that the man (mind) has taken a form as completing an action that goes against Gurmat. Manmat is saying that that the person (the form) has a understanding (mat) that is being followed by the mind and is not follow Satguru (Gurmat).

So your saying everything and all our actions are controlled by Waheguru Ji?

[kullykhalsa]

really hard concept to understand we have free will in abundance i can choose to not go to work i can choose to kill, help, slander my fellow brothers/sisters however the outcome of my decision even if i feel it is 50/5 right up to the moment i choose has already been seen by an all knowing all powerful being!

Waheguru knows every choice you make before you make it, he knows every possible path and every possible outcome on that path!