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sarblohgranth is doing a great job in bringing awareness about these nastik and gurnindaks acting as fifth columnists in sikhi.

it is hard to spot them first but listening to their groomed lectures they are identified.that time only we can blunt their bukwas

No clear answer on Dasam Granth, putting doubt in Sangat's minds

He is a rabid anti dasam granth lunatic. When darshan ragi affair was hot, he came to sikhnet propagating against dasam granth in totality.i had long arguements with him and then he just ran away from the field.

sangat ji do not have any doubt about this sadh type missionary.he is a crook gurnindak.THey say sadhs do kirtan without raags and read shabad in dharna.what does this fake doctor ( He writes himself a doctor and he is not a qualified doctor) do? He also reads shabads like sadhs which is not condemnable but while it is ok for him it should be ok for others as well.why double standard.

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sangat ji, one thing is quite clear now.THese people are not parcharaks or sikh scholars of gurbani.they are thugs who take random lines of gurbani and then their job is highlight social evils among sikhs. kiddos of their age without naam abhias and knowledge of guru granth sahib and other sikh scriptures can never become katha vachaks. bhai pinderpal singh, maan singh jhaur and giani sant singh maskeen were a class apart full of knowledge and adept versatile figures with gurmukh jeevni colored with naam di kamai.

such shops of slander do not last long and sooner or later they will be eclipsed. but we must expose them.

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I am far from being a supporter of missionary supporter, but i do believe in freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech clause do not apply to code of a religion.yes it applies if they write about kissas ( folk lore) of Heer ranjha,sassi punnu, mirza sahiban etc. to propagate against scriptures and marayda of a religion is a crime in many countries punishable by imprisonment. I wish these missionaries know this as most of them are from india and there this law exists.

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This is not the aim of Sikhi. Sikhi is about connecting with Akal Purkh, not dwelling on debates and exposing each other for having different views then ours. Increase the peace.

Sikhi basic teachings to meet akal purakh is through naam simran.this is where these missionaries differ from sikhi.by denying this practcie they are violating sikh rehat maryada also. they have qualified not be included in sikhi anymore.so no bhul chuk maaf.

there are other major philosophical points where they deviate from sikhism.they do not consider gurbani as mantra and hence are branded nastiks.

अकाल मूरति है साध संतन की ठाहर नीकी धिआन कउ ॥१॥
Akāl mūraṯ hai sāḏẖ sanṯan kī ṯẖāhar nīkī ḏẖi▫ān ka▫o. ||1||
The Being of Immortal Manifestation is found in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. Meditate on Him in that most sublime place. ||1||
बाणी मंत्रु महा पुरखन की मनहि उतारन मांन कउ ॥
Baṇī manṯar mahā purkẖan kī manėh uṯāran māʼnn ka▫o.
The Bani, the Word of the Supreme Lord God, is the greatest Mantra of all. It eradicates pride from the mind.
ang 1208 SGGS
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DSG Paji, Jonny Paji and GPS Paji ... respected brothers I'm not going to hide the fact that I actually respect Panthpreet Singh Khalsa and Sarbjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda)'s opinions on certain issues where I believe they are upholding Gurmat and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj above manmat concepts that have gained credence within the Panth thanks to anti-Sikh forces.

But that aside, why not let us look at how all of us on different sides of the spectrum can unite upon easy to agree subjects such as the defeat of drugs in Punjab, an end to female infanticide in Punjab, increasing literacy to 100% and helping our gareeb brothers and sisters globally of whatever background. So why not us various sympathisers of two differing viewpoints look to how we can unite Dhunda Sahib, Panthpreet Singh and others with Gurmat Gian ideology with those you hold in high esteem?

Imagine our Panth's chardi kallah if we all work unitedly on the key issues and debate the smaller ideological issues once we have jointly achieved victory on the bigger central issues facing our Qaum. Gurfateh!

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Imagine our Panth's chardi kallah if we all work unitedly on the key issues and debate the smaller ideological issues once we have jointly achieved victory on the bigger central issues facing our Qaum. Gurfateh!

lol troll? Smaller ideological differences? These nastiks are attacking the core of Sikhi, naam simran. How many people has dhunda gotten taken to take khande de phul while abroad? The answer? 0 . All he does is divide the sangat. He runs from proper veechar, his motives are clear. He is attacking the khalsa panth from the inside, which is a big issue. Gurmukhs have done a wonderful job of exposing these moorakhs. dhan guru, dhan guru pyare. Waheguru.
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But that aside, why not let us look at how all of us on different sides of the spectrum can unite upon easy to agree subjects such as the defeat of drugs in Punjab, an end to female infanticide in Punjab, increasing literacy to 100% and helping our gareeb brothers and sisters globally of whatever background. So why not us various sympathisers of two differing viewpoints look to how we can unite Dhunda Sahib, Panthpreet Singh and others with Gurmat Gian ideology with those you hold in high esteem?

Imagine our Panth's chardi kallah if we all work unitedly on the key issues and debate the smaller ideological issues once we have jointly achieved victory on the bigger central issues facing our Qaum. Gurfateh!

exactly! when we have problems like drug problem, apostasy problem, illiteracy problem, 84 genocide murderers are still free. With all these unresolved issues, what is the need to do vaad vivaad of Dasam Granth amongst the Sikhs right now at this point in time by the kala afghanists? why are they further confusing, dividing Panth on issues regarding our scriptures and traditions when we have more important problems to tackle.

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lol troll? Smaller ideological differences? These nastiks are attacking the core of Sikhi, naam simran. How many people has dhunda gotten taken to take khande de phul while abroad? The answer? 0 . All he does is divide the sangat. He runs from proper veechar, his motives are clear. He is attacking the khalsa panth from the inside, which is a big issue. Gurmukhs have done a wonderful job of exposing these moorakhs. dhan guru, dhan guru pyare. Waheguru.

Paji if i land in Calgary tomorrow, I'd be happy that I have a GurSikh brother there in you, regardless of our differences in opinion. But are you seriously telling me that if Sarbjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda) and Panthpreet Singh Khalsa say that naam simran must be accompanied thereafter by action against jaath-paath, female infanticde, drugs in Punjab etc that they are against the Panth and they are biggest enemy of Sikhi? I'm telling you straight Paji I honestly believe that the Gurmat Gian MCL ideology is increasing no matter what you try to do to withold it or deny it and the number of Sikhs and Khalsa will increase accordingly! Sikhi is 100% pure logic and it's undefeatable!

Peace!

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exactly! when we have problems like drug problem, apostasy problem, illiteracy problem, 84 genocide murderers are still free. With all these unresolved issues, what is the need to do vaad vivaad of Dasam Granth amongst the Sikhs right now at this point in time by the kala afghanists? why are they further confusing, dividing Panth on issues regarding our scriptures and traditions when we have more important problems to tackle.

That's the thing Jonny Paji. We as a Sangat (myself included) are not seeing clearly enough that we are all on the same side. I think it's disingenuous of opponents of the Gurmat Gian ideology to suggest that controversial aspects of Bachittar Natak and Charitropakhiyan are the only topics certain Kathavachiks mention. That simply isn't true but it's what they are associated with.

Paji, I've read your posts and I know in my heart that you are 100% committed to Sikhi ... so why would I, as someone who openly supports the Gurmat Gian position on many issues (even though I don't eat meat myself) wish to argue with you as my brother when I know that you want Sikhi to be in Chardi Kallah with all your heart? Thus these confrontations between pro and anti-Dhunda forces are really not doing our Qaum any good - even though we do need respectful debate (preferably behind closed doors) on what is authentic Gurbani within certain sections of today's DG. I'm confident you agree with me on this Paji

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UKLondonSikh Veer Jee, thank you for your replies and show of love and genuine concern. Thanks for being honest that you are a major supporter/fan of the missionaries. I don't hold anything against you for that. I appreciate that you were honest.

Jonny101 Veer Jee sums things up quite nicely by saying:

exactly! when we have problems like drug problem, apostasy problem, illiteracy problem, 84 genocide murderers are still free. With all these unresolved issues, what is the need to do vaad vivaad of Dasam Granth amongst the Sikhs right now at this point in time by the kala afghanists? why are they further confusing, dividing Panth on issues regarding our scriptures and traditions when we have more important problems to tackle.

Please take note of the following points, they are each important and are in no specific order. There are many many more points, these are just a few that come to mind at the moment.

  • When there have already been countless katha, discussions, articles and books on the topic of meat in Sikhi, why do these missionaries have to go and tell what they think when they clearly know it's a controversial topic? If they truly are not breaking up the Sangat, they would not even bring the topic up. But no, they are too egotistic, so they like to show that they are "knowledgeable in every topic, no matter how controversial it may be.
  • If they are truly on Sikhs' side, then why do they make fun of the people who respect Dasam Granth Sahib and Sarbloh Granth Sahib and also treat the pothis/gutkaas with very little respect at all? They mock faithful Sikhs by calling them "Dasam Granthis" and "Kalka Panthis" and stuff like that. Now you tell me how that supposedly brings the Sangat together?
  • If they don't want to break the Sangat up, then why do they not hold discussions with Singhs who have opposite views than them? Instead they only meet with those who support their views, yet they don't hold back in critisizing others. They play a game of "keep away", where no matter how many fights and protests happen in and around Gurdwaras, they don't openly speak with those who question their views. Now you tell me how this connects the Sangat.
  • They openly speak against Giani Sant Singh Jee Maskeen, Bhai Pinderpal Singh Jee, Bhai Harjinder Singh Jee Sri Nagar Vale, Bhai Balwinder Singh Rangila, Bhai Inderjeet Singh Bombay Vaaley (Darbaar Sahib Hazoori Raagi), Bhai Baldev Singh Vadala (Darbar Sahib Hazoori Raagi), etc. Now you can tell me when 99% of Sangat loves these people, they are openly promoting hatred against them and now lots of the Sangat is split where people love them and people hate them. Just recently in USA, Sangat and Gurdwara rejected Bhai Pinderpal Singh Jee but welcomed Dhunda with open arms. You tell me how this joins the Sangat together.
  • They don't believe in Naam Simran, Naam Abhiaas and Amritvela. They call it "totaa ratan" (parrot blabbering/repetition) and "mechanical repetition". That is uncalled for and not necessary. It clearly divides up the Sangat. Please tell me how that kind of mockery and name-calling joins the Sangat together.
  • They are so stuck on being against "Babas", that they end up going against authentic and genuine great Sikhs who did so much for the Panth. They make blanket statements which puts great Sikhs in the same boat as the fake babas. You tell me how that joins the Sangat together.
  • Why do they play politics by always going after Badal and SGPC. Missionaries are clearly with Sarna. They never once criticized Sarna or DGMC even though many bad things have happened in Delhi and Delhi Gurdwaras in the past 10 years alone. They are clearly playing politics. And while doing so, they try and bring down Sikhs' faith in Takhats and Jathedaars. They openly stand against Takhats and Jathedaars. Is that what someone who wants to join the Sangat would do?
  • Another way they try and defy the Takhats and Jathedaars is by associating with anti-Sikh elements.. They and their followers deny these associations, yet it has been proven again and again that they associate with Dilgeer, Darshan Ragi, Kala-Afghana, etc. You tell me how this joins the Sangat.
  • They never criticize their associates even when they are completely out of line. For example, Jeonwala mocked Jaap Sahib with his own version, but Dhunda was not prepared to say anything against Jeonwala...
  • Inder Ghagga of missionary college himself denies all of Dasam Granth. Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib are fake for him as well and says they came from Hindu Granths. In one of your comments above you said that we should see which parts are authentic and which parts are not...but for heaven's sake....to try and put this much doubt in Sangat's mind that even Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib are not Gurbani..come on.
  • The ardaas is accepted by the whole panth. Yet many of their associates have changed the ardaas in major ways and made their own ardaas. You tell me how this joins the Sangat together.
  • They over-state things and make things over-emmotional to get support. Like for Dasam Granth. "Oh no, the RSS is trying to bring in another Granth and trying to take away Guru Granth Sahib Jee". Like come on, that type of emotional-manipulation is clearly not trying to connect the Sangat. There has been no controversy on Dasam Granth in hundreds of years. YET, all of a sudden Kala-Afghana, Missionaries, etc come into the picture and act as if they are saving everybody from some horrible demon.
  • Whenever asked questions, they don't give straight answers. They give very vague answers on meat, Dasam Granth, Naam, etc. This is a tactic to leave doubts in people's minds and let people's minds do whatever they want.
  • They and their followers lie shamelessly infront of Sangat. They put up their videos online, but when they are exposed, they take down the video. But before they take it down, there are many people who have made copies of those videos. When those copies are put up online, the missionaries lie and say "it's edited, and cut vad (copy and paste), etc". And so as a result, the missionaries' followers say the exact same thing in an attempt to discredit the people who are actually truthful and put up the original video which was taken down. Then, as time goes on and people forget about the controversy, those same videos which the missionaries took down, they put back up. Now you tell me is that joining the Sangat or breaking it?
  • It is a fact that many fights and arguements happen at Gurdwaras around the world due to missionaries. They come, cause controversy and then leave. And the result? Well, it doesn't affect them at all. They go back to india. In the west, Sikhs' image is ruined in the media coverage showing the fighting and protests. You tell me how this joins the Sangat. If the missionaries truly had a good intention for Sikhi, they would have already addressed the controversies and problems by sitting with opposing sides in closed door room WITH VIDEO CAMERA. It is a common fact that missionaries don't like closed room talk with good quality video recording. Instead what do the missionaries do? Despite knowing that they are controversial and that lots of Sangat questions them, they still have the ego to go on Gurdwara stages. They earn thousands of dollars and go back to india, while the rest of the Sangat is made to look like fools in the media.
  • They twist Sikh Rehit Maryada. They cleverly leave words out when explaining Sikh Rehit Maryada, such as Naam Abhiaas at Amrit Vela. Also they twist the word "Gurbani" and say that Dasam Granth Keertan cannot take place in Guru Granth Sahib Jee's Darbar. Yet it is a fact that Dasam Granth Keertan has been going on in Darbar Sahib for hundreds of years. (Maybe that's why Dhunda said that the stuff being sung at Darbar Sahib is worse than prostitutes dancing...because it is clear that Dhunda is against Dasam Granth Sahib and is clearly annoyed by how so many raagis support Dasam Granth through Keertan. Many of Dhunda followers speak against any raagi doing Dasam Granth Keertan, no matter how Chardikalaa that Raagi is.) You tell me how these clever tricks join the Sangat.

They can support the human rights side of Sikhi as much as they want, but they shouldn't be trying to remove the spirituality parts of Sikhi. Sikhi is just as much about spirituality as it is about human rights and contributive lifestyle towards humanity. Missionaries have failed in spirituality side.

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