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How were karams and lekhs formed initially?


tuhintuhin
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Sangat ji......this thing is explained in various sikh books and discourses....but too hard to understand.

Mohkam Singh ji,

Could you please shed some light on this based on your knowledge and experience in simple words? When our spirit came into human body for the first time....how were the karam and lekh formed? Were we given options to choose good or bad? All spirits must be pure at that time.

The rest of sangat is welcomed to share their views as well.

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The first thing vahiguroo ji created was shabad- ongkar and from that shabad- whole creation came along with maya made of rajo, tamo, sato attributes then from that maya this individual soul/jiv atma came - at that point under influence of maya/illusion - soul perceived itself separate from vahiguroo-atma-paratma, soul perceived itself as individual as Jiv atma as I-AM-NESS (EGO) as opposed to- perceiving itself as atma-paratma(one)/totally advait(non dual supreme consciousness) so once soul perceived itself as individual asI -AM-NESS (EGO)- karam was created (be it good or bad) under influence of I-AM-NESS (EGO) and from karam- countless human/animal/ reincarnations over and over again until this individual soul (jiv atma) realize its own real self- atma-paratma..!!!

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so once soul perceived itself as individual asI -AM-NESS (EGO)- karam was created (be it good or bad) under influence of I-AM-NESS (EGO)

so this "ego" or "I m-ness" wasn't God's will...but we say destiny is already written.....whatever happens is in God's will ? So did we choose ego based on the level of intellect we got? so wasn't our karams already pre-written by God.......if so...how can we do them......at the very first stage....how did we choose materialism if we were pure consciouness and knew nothing good or bad?

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Sangat ji......this thing is explained in various sikh books and discourses....but too hard to understand.

Mohkam Singh ji,

Could you please shed some light on this based on your knowledge and experience in simple words? When our spirit came into human body for the first time....how were the karam and lekh formed? Were we given options to choose good or bad? All spirits must be pure at that time.

The rest of sangat is welcomed to share their views as well.

Khalsa Ji

When we came into existence as humans our Karam began. The reason why we accumulated bad karam is because we gave into temptations somewhere along the line. The reason why we give into termptations is because we are under the influence of kaam/krodh/lobh/moh/ahankar. Some find the strength to resist temptations whilst others find it difficult to resist. Every bad karam is committed under agyanta {ignorance}. The creator makes us accumulate bad karam under agyanta and then in either this life or the next the creator removes the veil of ignorance and we acquire Gyan and as such we avoid temptations. According to Gurbani we are billions of years old. During this time our mann {mind} has accumulated the pollution of maya. Naam cleanses the old pollution and prevents new pollution from forming:

Ė sarīrā meri▫ā har ṯum mėh joṯ rakẖī ṯā ṯū jag mėh ā▫i▫ā.
O my body, the Lord infused His Light into you, and then you came into the world.
Waheguru.

A classic example is where no Fatwa could be applied to the chote Sahibzadeh because of their age but the Samanay waleh jalaad {henchmen} accepted the task in exchange for a pending law case to be dropped against them. The jalaad had the choice to decline but they gave into temptaion. They will recieve punishment for the deed they commited but somewhere along the line Waheguru will give them the opportunity to redeem themselves.

Some say that it is a cruel world. Guru Gobind Singh Ji salutes the creator who is raheem {compassionate} but also salutes the creator who can be kroor {merciless}. We are all pieces in Waheguru's game of chess.

May Waheguru have rahem {mercy} on us all.

Waheguru.

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^^^ o waheguru ji thank you.......for explaining in simple words...............it was easy :) all doubts in the mind are erased now........and understood what N30SINGH ji explained above :)

so the choice is ours......whether to accept or decline good or bad thoughts before they can become actions and deeds / karam/lekha......and when our bad karams are erased and good deeds add up the "punn" finally and then with Guru ji's kirpa we re-unite with HIM......

Thank you everyone for taking time to help me out....

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so this "ego" or "I m-ness" wasn't God's will...but we say destiny is already written.....whatever happens is in God's will ? So did we choose ego based on the level of intellect we got? so wasn't our karams already pre-written by God.......if so...how can we do them......at the very first stage....how did we choose materialism if we were pure consciouness and knew nothing good or bad?

very good and deep questions..i thank you for asking deep questions and giving chance for members to have deep vichar

so this "ego" or "I m-ness" wasn't God's will...but we say destiny is already written.....whatever happens is in God's will ?

It was part of hakum intertwined with free will..it was god's will intertwined with free will. God's will is hard to explain..i don't think we can 100% explain hakum theologically but at bhramgyan stage get anubhav of it..and thats pretty much it.

So did we choose ego based on the level of intellect we got?

EGO is perception as soon as one perceives they are 'I' separate from god they are in EGO...intellect itself is not a bad thing as bibek is connected with intellect and same intellect/bibek is used to do self-reflection at stages of spirituality....sheath of intellect is an hindrance where one individual consciousnesses cannot get pass from sheath of intellect (vigyan may kosh) towards supreme consciousness- real self- vahiguroo-atma-paratma.

so wasn't our karams already pre-written by God.......if so...how can we do them......at the very first stage....how did we choose materialism if we were pure consciouness and knew nothing good or bad?

Karams are pre-written by Vahiguroo...at the very first stage upon creation- this consciouness under influence of maya and free will- perceives itself as "I-amness" turn itself to individual consciousness , hence goes through process of karam (be it good or bad) under I-amness/ignorance and creates web of trap or more sheats (panj kosh, antish karan-man, chit, budh, ahankar), this world illusionary image for itself.

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