How were karams and lekhs formed initially?

[tuhintuhin]

so like parents give some freedom to their children...let's say some girl/boy going to hostel.....parents trusted her/him, provided with all the requirements.....and it's upto the child now....how he uses this freedom.......

....the child can get into bad company like smoking etc....or he can keep his aim in mind and remain uneffected by the outer environment........

Parents if come to know about his bad doings will try to explain him the consequences of the wrong company, but at the end it's upto the child if he listens to them or not.......but this might happen as well that parents decide to get him out of the hostel and put him in local school where he might mend his ways..........it might hurt the child at first for not having fun....but in the long run it'll benefit him.....

same like we all have "Bani" to show us the right path....but it's upto us if we follow it or not........if not we are choosing to make bad karams.......but still parents don't disown that child...love him....same way in the end Guru ji will or are helping us to get out of the "maya"

[tuhintuhin]

so in terms of pre-written karams........we have the option or free will to change them based on the level of "bibek" Guru ji bless us......

for eg...like when we put charan dhoorh (with faith of course)on our forehead, our good karams emerges..or when some mahapurkh place their hand over our head...the bad karams can vanish,,....

got it....I know a gursikh woman (very very close)...very highly spiritual.......used to do a mahapurkh ji's sangat...somehow someone told her that she has to get marry based on her palmistry.....she went to mahapurkh ji in bairaag...mahapurkh ji, daya de ghar cha aaye, with one finger of his hand erased the line on her hand.....and she's enjoying her spiritual life to the fullest today..........

also another example from history....there were two spiritual singhs father and son.....captured by mughals...jailed them seperately...told the father that his son is ready to become muslim.......and asked him for his last wish....the father said I want to meet my son......when father saaw son's forhead, he realized due to some previous karam he will have to become muslim for one time......the father rubbed the thumb of his foot on his son's forhead and asked mughals.....try turning him to muslim now.......and of course they coudn't and Singh became shaheeds without having any "kalank" on their names ......may be someone can get the names of the singhs...may be Bhai Subheg Singh and Bhai Shahbaz Singh - source Giani Thakur Singh's katha....

[singh598]

karm (action) is three fold mental, physical and in words spoken. Every action has a reaction this is part of the natural world we live in, for example a word spoken continues till eternity floating in space(science has proven this).

Similarly this same action has an effect on our consciousness/mindset known in Gurbani as man. If you choose positive action you reap positive reward, if you chose to regularly use violence and swear a lot and think mentally "man i want kill that guy," or "bwoy that girl is sexy" you will accumulate negativity in your mind which will also effect your body and your speech.

In terms of when God first created humans and the planet earth we were free from previous debt of karms but we still had a mind and a body which are tools given to us and we still had the ability to make decisions based on the understanding of oneself (ego) hence we forgot about our true spiritual jeev atma and became engrossed in worldly affairs and slowly evolved as a civilization that way. Not realizing God we got stuck and so constantly transmigrate.. If we have a good life we might get to heaven or to a different portal but you ghet kicked out from their in due course of time..if you have acquired more bad karams you go into life of animals etc. If you attain self realization such a person is one with God and has all the power that God has there is no difference between him and you.

God has destined our fate already before we are born, this is based on our previous karams.

Gurbani should really be studied carefully with full concentration it is amazing but the difficulty is that is a not an essay or forum thread it is written in poetry and all the gems of knowledge are scattered about within the Guru Granth Sahib. For example this topic is discussed in Gurbani but one point will be written in Jap Ji another might be in Sri Raag, then another in Sukhmani Sahib and then maybe one more in the final saloks, so in this manner you have to do the research yourself. Its a constant lifelong process - thats why Guru Granth Sahib states aiyo sunan paran ko banee - You have attained this body, listen and read Gurbani

[tuhintuhin]

^^thank you waheguru ji

[luckysingh99]

Sangat ji......this thing is explained in various sikh books and discourses....but too hard to understand.

Mohkam Singh ji,

Could you please shed some light on this based on your knowledge and experience in simple words? When our spirit came into human body for the first time....how were the karam and lekh formed? Were we given options to choose good or bad? All spirits must be pure at that time.

The rest of sangat is welcomed to share their views as well.

The question is-

How did we start of with a pure consciousness and then came the distress and bad karams..etc...????

This was actually a question that the yogis and sadhus asked Guru Nanak Ji in sidh ghost near the end of the bani.

Guru ji's answer was simply -HAUMAI.

Since before creation of the universe, God was just manifest within himself.

There was nothing else except this PURE consciousness that was in existence.

Then when the universe was created a duality was formed in the form of HAUMAI.

This HAUMAI that we experience is what causes the dukh/sukh bad/good dualities that exist within this creation.

To burn the haumai with the name of Guru's shabad is the ony way that one can start to eradicate this duality.

What happens then ????

Well, then the person starts to see and accept no duality and becomes more submerged within the supreme pure consciousness.

Thus the person does not experience dualities of sukh/dukh, good/bad....etc... and all these events of sukh/dukh are responded to equally as Waheguru's divine will.

THIS IS WHEN A PERSON IS GURMUKH.

Guru ji tells us that we shouldn't waste time and effort worrying about reasons for dukh/sukh or sufferings in this life due to past karma..etc...

But we should worry about trying to become Gurmukh.

Then, once you are gurmukh, you can rise above any strangleholds and weights of karma.

Thus, for the gurmukh, karma and lekh all CEASE TO EXIST.

Our Guru's didn't endure any sukh/dukh due to karmas and they didn't once blame the lekh.

But they SUBMITTED to the DIVINE WILL and they accepted HUKAM as being the DOER of ALL things.

No karma, no lekh, no destiny for the gurmukh... just complete submission to His HUKAM.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

How we can get liberation, my understanding through gurbani.

It is made clear in Japji

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

Hukam Rajaaee Chalanaa Naanak Likhiaa Naal ||1||

O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

Later made it more clear

ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

Hukamai Andhar Sabh Ko Baahar Hukam N Koe ||

Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

If you understand then

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥

Naanak Hukamai Jae Bujhai Th Houmai Kehai N Koe ||2||

O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||

Let your ego go and play the game of love. Guru Nanak Sahib makes a call leave yourself aside and surrender.

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥

Jo Tho Praem Khaelan Kaa Chaao ||

If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥

Sir Dhhar Thalee Galee Maeree Aao ||

Then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

ਇਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪੈਰੁ ਧਰੀਜੈ ॥

Eith Maarag Pair Dhhareejai ||

When you place your feet on this Path,

ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਾਣਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥੨੦॥

Sir Dheejai Kaan N Keejai ||20||

Give Me your head, and do not pay any attention to public opinion. ||20||

God is love and truth.

Bhagat Kabir ji's baani.

ਹਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਐਸਾ ਚਾਹੀਐ ਜੈਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੪੯॥

Har Jan Aisaa Chaaheeai Jaisaa Har Hee Hoe ||149||

The humble servant of the Lord should be just like the Lord. ||149||

How Karma's and lekh are formed are defined well by members here.

But God is pure and truth, be like him. When you are like your lord then it is time to go back home.