other religions?

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Anyway, i try these days not to get bothered with it, surely its part of hakum as hakum is also intertwined with free will...some of its hakum, some of its self inflicted in free will.

Ang- 1083

saraa sareeath lae ka(n)maavahu ||

Let your practice be to live the spiritual life.

thareekath tharak khoj ttolaavahu ||

Let your spiritual cleansing be to renounce the world and seek God.

maarafath man maarahu abadhaalaa milahu hakeekath jith fir n maraa ||3||

Let control of the mind be your spiritual wisdom, O holy man; meeting with God, you shall never die again. ||3|

searchgurbani.com its fonts are supported(but always check the translation)

ਸਰਾ ਸਰੀਅਤਿ ਲੇ ਕੰਮਾਵਹੁ ॥

Saraa Sareeath Lae Kanmaavahu ||

Let your practice be to live the spiritual life.

[rrss]

What onsense have I just read?! Sikhi has NO problems, yes people might personally not agree with everything but that doesn't make sikhi have problems. It could be that people that represent sikhi on tv etc have problems and give a false impression that sikhi has problems but that is completely untrue as sikhi is the one and only religion that is right in every angle, be it maryada, equality, truth etc. everything is perfection and couldn't be any more perfect. Other religions all failed. you may ask why? Well, jesus preached abuot himself, made followers to him and called them his sheep, mohammed made his own followers too BUT guru ji say -ikonkaar. Gru Gobind singh ji say that the khalsa is my form - aape gur chela. at the end of the day every human has been given free will so it is up to you. But there are no faults in it whatsoever. Sorry if I have unintentionally hurt anyone.

Let us be clear, Gurbani has no faults. The way we moorakhs practice sikhi as a religion introduces faults. Stop being so proud of your religion and go back to basics you will understand what I mean straight away. I discuss this issue with older Gursikhs and they understand after contemplation. Also re-read my post re how Sikhi is above a religion, it is not just an instruction manual, it is the truth about our glorious God.

[rrss]

rrss jee you have some very strong views, probably influenced by your atheist past. If a former atheist turns to a spiritual path then he should be like an empty glass ready to get poured with spiritual knowledge, but if you are already a full glass with your old ideas then there is not much room for new knowledge. One should never follow a religion influenced by their pre conceived ideas because then you end up distorting the message and misguiding others in the process. For starters you should back up your views with Gurbani or other Sikh canonical scriptures.

Very strong views in what respect, please elaborate. You have no idea about my journey and my approach to Sikhi and are in no place to Judge me. I find your statement very strange. In what respects am I already a full glass?

Talk of the pot calling the kettle black "One should never follow a religion influenced by their pre conceived ideas because then you end up distorting the message and misguiding others in the process." Most people born into a religion already have pre-conceived ideas and when challenged with it difficult to understand what is wrong with their understanding or that they may actually be missing some important things. Being born to parents of a particular does not make you of that religion. God alone is the one who puts us on His path. The process of self discovery is critical, God himself has told me this and is of course discussed by Guru ji in terms of stages of spiritual discovery, both in terms of khands and laavan.

Also avoid the use of the word 'canonical' with respect to Gurbani and related scriptures. I suggest you refer to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and ask Guru sahib for guidance before criticising his sewak.

I would suggest having a discussion through through PM as there is no need to unnecessarily wash dirty linen in public. I am happy to answer all your questions.

[TheFancyBanana]

If you want to follow something else, do it. Whatever appeals to you. Guru Nanak didn't tell people to convert or force them to follow his path. You are walking your own path on this Earth.

[rrss]

If you want to follow something else, do it. Whatever appeals to you. Guru Nanak didn't tell people to convert or force them to follow his path. You are walking your own path on this Earth.

You must have misunderstood me because I have not said this. My point is that people from other religions don't need to convert to the sikh religion to benefit from his message as his messsage is dur ki bani and is for all of humanity, but if they want to become sikh, they should not follow blindly because many rituals have crept into how the religion is practiced, people should connect with shabad guru ji and follow his advice. My point is also that religions are a means to an end- to realise God. Guru ji has tried to explain that it is not about following this series of steps or that set of rituals, it is much bigger than that. Sikhi is both a religion as well as above a religion.

I would request you to read carefully and if unsure please do ask for clarification before passing such judgement of a gursikh walking his own path. A lot of bullying on this forum I must say.

Bhul chuk maaf karna.

[TheFancyBanana]

You must have misunderstood me because I have not said this. My point is that people from other religions don't need to convert to the sikh religion to benefit from his message as his messsage is dur ki bani and is for all of humanity, but if they want to become sikh, they should not follow blindly because many rituals have crept into how the religion is practiced, people should connect with shabad guru ji and follow his advice. My point is also that religions are a means to an end- to realise God. Guru ji has tried to explain that it is not about following this series of steps or that set of rituals, it is much bigger than that. Sikhi is both a religion as well as above a religion.

I would request you to read carefully and if unsure please do ask for clarification before passing such judgement of a gursikh walking his own path. A lot of bullying on this forum I must say.

Bhul chuk maaf karna.

I wasn't talking about you or your post bro. I was merely saying what I thought. I did not pass judgement on you or anyone else, neither am I bullying anyone. Am I not allowed to express my own opinion?

[Mehtab Singh]

I would request you to read carefully and if unsure please do ask for clarification before passing such judgement of a gursikh walking his own path. A lot of bullying on this forum I must say.

Sir, with all due respect to you and your valued opinions, I beg to differ and say that a Gursikh walks not on his/her path but the path shown to us by Guru Sahib. As for bullying on this forum, I doubt if Johnny or FancyBanana are the kind of members who bully folks on here, but if you feel anyone is, please use the report feature.

[Jonny101]

Very strong views in what respect, please elaborate. You have no idea about my journey and my approach to Sikhi and are in no place to Judge me. I find your statement very strange. In what respects am I already a full glass?

Brother you said some things like:

Sikhi is not a religion, but according to webster's dictionary of what a religion is:

Definition of RELIGION

1

a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>

b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2

: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3

archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness

4

: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Now how is using the term religion for Sikh Dharm wrong according to the definition of "religion"

Second claim you made was that Guru Nanak Dev Jee gave Amrit to Muslims yet they remained Muslims. By that you are indirectly saying that they were still followers of Prophet Muhammad while also being Sikhs. When Rukn Ud Din took Amrit and became a Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Jee he was tortured and killed by the Muslim Arabs. A Sikh is a sacha Aashiq of his Guru, you cannot do Aashiqee with two and claim to be a true Aashiq of any one of them, it's either one or the other. If you put your foot in two separate boats you will slip and sink.

Talk of the pot calling the kettle black "One should never follow a

religion influenced by their pre conceived ideas because then you end up

distorting the message and misguiding others in the process." Most

people born into a religion already have pre-conceived ideas and when

challenged with it difficult to understand what is wrong with their

understanding or that they may actually be missing some important

things. Being born to parents of a particular does not make you of that

religion. God alone is the one who puts us on His path. The process of

self discovery is critical, God himself has told me this and is of

course discussed by Guru ji in terms of stages of spiritual discovery,

both in terms of khands and laavan.

A path of Sikhi is full of trust and Shardha not critical. It is only through the path and blessings of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee that you can have darshan of Vahiguru because the Darshan is obtained through Gurprasaad. Sadly most Sikhs today like to lower the status of Sri SatGuru Jee almost like he is on the same level of Raam, Krishna, Buddha or Prophet Muhammad. Sabh te vadda Satgur Nanak jin kall raakhi meri.

Also avoid the

use of the word 'canonical' with respect to Gurbani and related

scriptures. I suggest you refer to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

and ask Guru sahib for guidance before criticising his sewak.

The canonical scriptures of the Sikhs are:

-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee

-Bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee

-writings of Bhai Gurdas Jee(varaan and Kabit)

-writings of Bhai Nand Lal Jee

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee being our Satguru.

And I am not criticizing you in a negative way Bhaaji, sorry to see you see it that way. This is more of constructive criticism. By discussing some issues like this, I can learn new things from you and maybe you might see my point of view and learn something from me. This is good discussion.

[N30S1NGH]

It's good discussion but complex one.

Quote

Second claim you made was that Guru Nanak Dev Jee gave Amrit to Muslims yet they remained Muslims. By that you are indirectly saying that they were still followers of Prophet Muhammad while also being Sikhs. When Rukn Ud Din took Amrit and became a Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Jee he was tortured and killed by the Muslim Arabs. A Sikh is a sacha Aashiq of his Guru, you cannot do Aashiqee with two and claim to be a true Aashiq of any one of them, it's either one or the other. If you put your foot in two separate boats you will slip and sink.

I agree with veer johnny101. There is no way one can be sikh of Guru sahib and shariat level muslim. Gurmat does not acknowledge prophet muhammad as avtar or anything like that nor it agrees with aurenzeb type of shariat islam. If we read gurbani, gurbani re-defines how muslim should be, in fact the gurbani shabad itself posted in my previous post is originally meant for updesh to muslim if we read the whole shabad but on a broader context it off course applies to everyone including sikhs.

It' quite possible not surprising at all, guru nanak dev ji gave amrit via charan amrit or via deb dristhi to lucky student- ruk ud din yet still let rukh ud din attach to marfat, hakikat layer of Islam, let him jaap naam of allah, khuda re-enforced importance of Zikr meditation of Islam.

We need to stop at looking at sikhi from abrahamic point of view. Sikhi isn't some cheap jevoh witness movement- take amrit, forget about previous resounding names of god, we purify you, give you new one which will guarantee you mukhti...it sounds quite cheap jevoh witness type of purification/converation.

Each individual avastha are different as such..yes many were given full fledge gursikhi- start from scratch based on their antish karan/karams but some based on avastha of individuals exceptions guru maharaj encourage them to pursue mystic layer in their respective dharam and were given kirpa/bhramgyan amrit by deb dristhi- Gurparsad. Satguru nanak dev nirankar were nirankar themselves in sargun roop live pooran avtar guru of this whole universe/multiverse they came to give people mukhti/give people amrit in various forms-charan amrit, deb dristhi amrit, khanda da amrit , they gave mukhti based on people's merit/actions, avastha, sharda and prem as opposed to based on merit of people's socio-religious rehni behni/people following shariat layer of dharam.

Quote

Sabh te vadda Satgur Nanak jin kall raakhi meri.

Satbachan..there is no question about it..satguru nanak dev nirankar is supreme lord... Gurbani da vak sada sat hai.

Quote

Sadly most Sikhs today like to lower the status of Sri SatGuru Jee almost like he is on the same level of Raam, Krishna, Buddha or Prophet Muhammad.

I think most sikhs inspired by puratan samparda's- taksal/nirmale etc are steady fast believe in gurbani vak above- Sabh te vadda Satgur Nanak jin kall raakhi meri while maintaining acknowledging previous yug avtars- Ram, Krishna based on gurbani. Gurmat does not acknowledge prophet muhammad whatsoever as avtar and does not considers buddha as hari avtar but rather nit avtar. So for sake of complexity of discussion we could mohammad or buddha out of discussion for now.

In fact, sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale gurbani katha consistent with Gurmat writes in their pothi of japji sahib-

The six types of avtars are as follows;

1. Ansa Avtar- his is the avtar taken by rightious kings such as Raja Janak

2. Aveshya Avtar - this is avtars with spiritual powers

3. Kala Avtar - this is avtars with extrodinary powers usually 14 or 16 powers

4. Nit Avtar - This is the Avtar taken by Sants and Mahatmas.

5. Namit Avtar - This is where God comes to earth for a short time and does not take birth then dissappears following what work needed to be done. Examples of this are Narsingh and the future avtar of Kalki

6. Pooran Hari Avtar - This is the most powerful Avtar of God before guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was a form which contained almost all powers. Examples of this are Ram and Krishan

Guru Avtar- That is Guru Sahib(Jagat Guru) not only for Sikh.remember Guru Nanak Dev Ji was for all humanity... There will never be a greater avtar that will take place in age of iron. Guru Avtar is great of all 6 of them have unlimtied powers.

Both puran hari avtar and Guru Avtar are avtars of Vahiguroo ji, puran hari avtars such as krishan, ram were avtars of vahiguroo in previous yugas according to the need of previous yugas. In kalyug, only satguru nanak dev nirankar in sargun eleven forms are guru avtar of vahiguroo ji and in kalyug, only universal sikhi providing universal message of niskham seva, meditating on name (shabad surat/gyan of real self) are fastest way to get kaival mukhti in this kalyug.

We need to realize there is a diffference between genuine pride based on truth and gajini type of false pride/ego.

Guru Maharaj has said, ਗਰਬ ਗੰਜਨ ਦੁਸਟ ਭੰਜਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦਾਇਕ ਕਾਮ || Thou art the Destroyer of ego, the vanquisher of tyrants and performer of works leading to salvation.

For example-

Genuine pride based on nothing but eternal truth- Sabh te vadda Satgur Nanak jin kall raakhi meri, Gurmat is fastest way to get to sackhand if understood, contemplated, if one takes full dive in depth of Gurbani.

Gajini type of false pride/misguidance- Inadvertently or advertently turning sikhi into abhramic faith, into jevoh witness type of movement, seeing dualism among avtars of vahiguroo as opposed to seeing energy behind avtars. Gyani sher singh ji put it eloquently in his katha on sri dasam granth by giving example that- one must rise from wrapping their heads around electricity forms(different forms of avtars) such as - bulbs, tube lights, generators- power goes through bulbs, tube lights, generators based on how much is needed based on need but make no mistake it's same non dual power- Vahiguroo nirgun roop which is giving power to all these different forms based on need of time (yugas).

It's all that same one non dual vahiguroo khel, he himself put traps of maya front of krishna and ram chandar ji- many of times based on vahiguroo grace - they pass and upheld dharma in their respective yuga were able to show followers of yuga right path to salvation but some of it they failed to uphold dharma again(as sri dasam granth sahib ji points out) miserably, under hakum of vahiguroo- vahiguroo himself had to set the record straight based on time so they were ascended back to nirankar as vahiguroo sargun hari avtar saroop of ram and krishnan folded itself back in its nirgun roop as their job in their respective yugas was done (they didn't go back to satan thats the key here they went back in nirankar appear/disappear in khands based on hakum they are not confined in khands but rather exist in our consciouness/perception/avastha) ..fast fwd to kalyug vahiguroo ji himself had to descend with full powers as satguru nanak dev nirankar in sargun saroop to resume and upheld dharma as kalyug is toughest yet easiest (if one follows universal sikhi based on niskham seva and simran).

Anyway, to be honest where theological discussion of avtarvad(different types of avtars above) ends thats where real spiritual sikhi- bhramgyan starts. In other words, deep time consuming discussion of avtars are thing of hinduism (vaishav matt).. Sikhi does not overly emphasize on avtarvad. Sikhi is non dual/advait gyan marg, gurbani gives updesh at the end to human being- each one of us are avtars, in layman terms - yes there are super heros in indic relgious faiths but whats the stopping you an human to be just like them, in fact vahiguroo jot is in everyone, we are all avtars of vahiguroo ji- we all have potential to know our real self- atma-paratma vahiguroo but with that being said, existence of avtarvaad cannot be outright rejected as it helps a beginner to invoke devotion, prem, sharda. In hinduism how bhagti -vaishanav mat/order and gyan order- advaita/adi sankarcharaya are staunchly against each other but its mind blowing its only in sikhi - how gursikhi bhagti and gyan layer- atma-paratma-bhramgyan are magnificently blended with each other- there is no difference between nirgun and sargun- Ikongkar non dual atma-paratma...its amazing...!!!

Dhan teri sikhi maharaj, dhan teri sikhi..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!