Interesting article by anti dasam supporter using dasam granth sources against Namdharis claims

[taran0]

here is a very interesting article i came across

http://www.sikhsundesh.net/gurugranth.htm

where an anti dasam supporter is arguing with a namdhari over the issue of "wether gurgaddi was given to guru Granth Sahib Ji by guru Gobind singh Ji" the anti dasam supporter - charanjit singh bal uses sources to prove that guru granth sahib jis is the final guru that also support that guru gobind singh ji wrote dasam granth

i will post some extracts.... please see above link for full conversation

It is interestign to note that the writer (charnjit) has similar views to dasam bani as the namdhari has to guru Granth sahib ji

THe key is what I have highlighted in RED - the sources he uses to prove gurgadhi was given to Guru Granth Sahib ji also support Dasam Bani was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji as they reference, mention and quote extensively from dasam bania like bachittar natak

• Bhai Nand Lall, - in rehitnama mentions japji sahib and jaap sahib for morning prayer
• Bhai Senapat, (Dasmesh Guru’s court poets)1711, mentions Conversation of Guru Gobind Singh and Akal Purakh, and written three of it's Adhyay on base of Bachitar Natak.
• Bhai Chaupa Singh - quotes various lines from Bachitar Natak, 33 Swiayey, Chopai Sahib, Jaap Sahib.
• Bhai Desa Singh (infant Guru’s Baby Sitters/nurses)
• Bhai Sukha Singh - mentioned compositions of Guru Gobind Singh in rehitnama
• Bhai Koer Singh - mentioned most of Banis written during time of Patshahi 10
• Bhai Kesar Singh Chiber -mentioned history of Compilation of Dasam Granth by Bhai Mani Singh
  Khalsa on directions of Mata Sundri, as he was first who wrote history
  after death of Guru Gobind Singh. says that Dasam is younger brother or shota granthand guru granth is older and got the gurgaddi.
• Giani Gian Singh - in panth parkash writes that Bhai Mani Singh accepted the orders of the panth And he collected the banees of the Dasam Guru and Compiled in one bind

also reference this article from Gurinder Singh Mann - http://www.sikhscholar.co.uk/2012/10/historical-sources-on-guru-granth-sahib.html which also highlights that the sources that prove guru granth sahib jis bani also support dasam bani.

so the anti dasam crew are using literature that supports dasam bani - to prove on one hand gurgadhi is given to guru granth sahib ji yet they ridicule the same sources when it comes to Dasam Granth - this is surely the biggest hypocrisy and clearly maligning historic sources when it suits them......

--------------------- folowing is brief extract from the conversation

Namdhari Gurbaksh Singh

Praise your guru in anyway you feel like. But don't act childish and discredit/disrespect other religions. A mature response is kindly requested. I really DON'T CARE what you have to write in reply because there's NO REPLY. The singh sabha believers have made several attempts in questioning the Authority of the Namdhari Satgurus and written many pieces of garbage books which make no sense what so ever. All of them were answered back and there was always NO REPLY. Look at the book 'Purakh Guru' published by the Namdhari Darbar about 25 years ago. It was written in reply to the many nonsense books published by the so called 'scholar' dr. ganda singh who is revered by singh sabhias as a historian-god as you will know better than me. But until today, TWENTY FIVE YEARS LATER THERE'S STILL NO REPLY to that book. No so called 'scholar' has been able to answer it back and the only thing left for them to do today is try to ban it. So it may be much wiser for you to not waste your time because unless you can reply to that book, your points are no points.

More over, I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE AUTHORITY OF YOUR GURU OR RELIGION. I saw in your sikhsundesh website that you've included Namdhari Sikhs in the same category as Nirankaris and other sects and called us all 'Pakhandis'. So who has started the name-calling here?

All I want is for you to remove Namdhari Sikhs from your 'anti-sikh' list and I will have no other problem with your site.

Charnjit (Anti Dasam)

As promised I have written an article in Punjabi on eternal Shabd Guru and corporeal guru and published it on my web site www.sikhsundesh.net. At this time I have written about your Namdhari sect only. However if and when time permits I will write about other sects who build their sectarian Gurudoms on the foundations of Sikhism and pillars of Guru Granth Sahib's Guru Shabd, but refuse to regard Guru Granth Sahib as the sole perpetual Sikh Guru. The word Pakhandi that incensed you so much has been used in the numerous Gurbani verses for the charlatans who run quasi-religious institutions as businesses. Since you are a Namdhari sectarian who is naturally inimical to any person or organization that belongs to anti-sectarian school of thought, I am inclined to ignore your diatribes. However in my article ‘Shabd Guru’ you will find that pro-Sikhism Scholar Dr. Ganda Singh's and the Singh Sabha believers’ opinion about Namdhari writers Nidhan Singh Alam, Inder Singh Chakrverti, Karam Singh Patwari, etc. and Namdhari believers is identical to your expressed opinion about the former.

Namdhari Gurbaksh Singh

your reply just goes to show that you've no idea what you're babbling about. This ganda singh is exactly the person I talked about who fabricated all kind of nonsense against Namdhari Sikhs WITHOUT PROOF. And it was this corrupt 'scholar' who was directly slapped in the face by the book 'Purakh Guru' and until today no one has been able to answer it. So what the hell are you even using his material that has already been given an anser for? To fool people regardless of truth? Atleast have some common sense!

Also let me make it very clear to you, I've contacted at least a dozen singh sabhia organizations until today including the SGPC and NONE OF THEM HAS BEEN ABLE TO SHOW ME EVEN A SINGLE BOOK WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED BEFORE THE 1860'S THAT SAID AAD GRANTH SAHIB WAS GIVEN GURGADDI. What more? This book 'Purakh Guru' has been published for 20 years and no singh sabhia has been able to answer it until this very second. All you have done is copied ganda singh's (and not empty words like your pathetic site) quoted from historical literatures that shows pathetic stuff which is a useless propaganda tool used by the singh sabhias and doesn't even makes sense to anyone who has some idea of Sikh history. It seems you've just woke up and started to write this garbage for the hell of it without doing any research yourself. Go out of your house into a library sometime!

So answer me this if you're so smart: Which Granth Sahib was it that was given the Gurgaddi? Your singh sabhia scholars can only make up stories that it was lost to the muslims during the holocausts. Well pardon me but where did it stay from 1708 to the 1730's? Where ever the other Gurus had stayed overnight there was always Gurdwaras built on the spot so why is there not even a single Gurdwara built where this so called 'Jote of all 10 Gurus' must have rested? (that is if it even existed!). Next question, when was Gurgaddi given to Granth Sahib? All other Guru's Gurgaddi Diwas is clearly mentioned and known but the one claimed to be given to Granth Sahib is so messed up that it's not even clear to anyone. Most of your singh sabhia websites claim katak sudi 5th or 6th well I have with me right now a Granth Sahib printed by singh sabhias that claims it to be given Gurgaddi on Katak Sudi 2nd! What the hell is this? Visit http://namdhari.faithweb.com/granthpanth.htm it outlines clearly WITH EVIDENCE once and for all that NO AAD GRANTH SAHIB WAS EVER GIVEN GURUSHIP.

Lastly, it seems you have no background nor knowledge whatsoever about Sikh History so please don't waste my time with this crap. Unless you or any of your scholars can reply to the book 'Purakh Guru' and answer all the questions it raises, I suggest you do yourself a favour and lie still.

All I wanted was for you to exclude the Namdhari Sikhs from your list of 'anti-sikh' but you have made a big deal out of it and tried to act so smart showing off your puny and non-existance knowledge to other people by sending a 'Forward' instead of a 'reply' to me. How silly! Thought you didn't know who you were dealing with did you! So deal with it now brother. If you can't answer my questions, then be a man and do what's right. Use your senses. I don't have time for this flat out lie and children's play. Unless you can show me a book written AND PUBLISHED before 1860's that says Aad Granth Sahib was given Guruship, it is requested you kindly don't waste my nor anyone else's precious time. Oh and don't copy some garbage out of another singh sabhia book by ganda singh. I want FACTS and not PROPAGANDA please.

Charnjit (Anti Dasam)

You ask, "Why is there not even a single Gurdwara built where this so called ‘Jote of 10 Gurus’ must have rested? (that is if it even existed)?" In the vocabulary of celestial Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib the word Jote or joti means quintessential spiritual philosophy or par exellence theological wisdom that is manifest in the Guru to true Gur-Sikhs through his illuminating Word. Obviously that Jote doesn’t need a temporal adobe (of brick and mortar), but an abode. The Guru Granth Sahib is that sacrosanct adobe in which Sikh Gurus’ Jote or illuminating Word is enshrined.

Contrary to the Sikhism’s primal concept mentioned above, the mythically inclined cultist sectarians erroneously profess that departing Guru’s Soul transmigrates into the succeeding Guru’s body, instead of re-uniting with the primal soul. Hence the Namdharis profess that Guru Gobind Singh Ji performed wizardry and disappeared into the thin air from his cremation pyre and lived underground or incognito for 47 years until he re-surfaced in a place called Bhadra, Rajputana in 1755 AD as Baba Ajapal Singh Ji. After impersonating Ajapal Singh Ji for 57 years including 39 years as a Mahant of a Dera in a grove near Jind he died in 1811/12 AD at the age of 146 years.

To profess that the invincible Guru Gobind Sigh Sahib would live incognito or as a Mahant at a time when Sikh Panth was engaged in a struggle for survival against tyrannical Mogul empire and Ahmed Shah Durani’s genocidal invasions is downright abomination and blasphemy.

...

And from your E-mail correspondence with me, all I know about you is that you are a radical Namdhari zealot who thinks stalwart Sikh scholars Dr. Ganda Singh Ji was "a corrupt scholar who fabricated all kind of nonsense against Namdhari Sikhs without proof and his writings ‘pathetic stuff’ that Singh Sabha used as a ‘useless propaganda tool’". May be you have prestigious credentials that you may wish to send me so that I can publish your dossier along verbatim text of your correspondence on my website www.sikhsundesh.net. By the way as of today 10,000+ visitors have visited my website, that you write "your pathetic site" since its publication. You are the 3rd visitor to send me the negative feedback. One is a Hindu and the other, a pro-Dasam Granth lobbyist Sikh Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba.

In your E-mail of May 8, 2003 you said, "Look at the book ‘Purakh Guru’ published by the Namdhari Darbar about 25 years back no reply to that book." and in the E-mail of May 21, 2003 you say, "This book ‘Purkh Guru’ has been published for 20 years " Surely one is a lie, which one is it? And as for, "Unless you can reply to the book ‘Purakh Guru’ and answer all the questions it raises, I suggest you do your self a fovour and lie still", having read Karam Singh Patwari’s surreal ‘Gur-Itehas Jankari’ I have no intention to read any more of mythological stuff. However, if and when time permits, I will try to write a critique on this book ‘Purkh Guru’ that you keep harping about; and publish it on my website.

You say, "I have contacted at least a dozen singh sabhia organizations until today including SGPC and NONE OF THEM HAS BEEN ABLE TO SHOW ME A SINGLE BOOK WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED BEFORE THE 1860’S THAT SAID AAD GRANTH SAHIB WAS GIVEN GURGADDI." I suggest instead of contacting a dozen Singh Sabhia Organizations and SGPC, if you go out of your Namdhari cocoon you will find there are dozens of Sikh history books that authenticate Sikhism’s ‘Shabd Guru’ concept and ‘Guru Maneo Granth’ edict on the market. You will not find these books in the cultist Gurus’ Dera.

Or if you read my article ‘Shabd Guru’ you will find references to verses from Gurbani that clearly emphasize Sikhism’s unique concept of ‘Shabd Guru’ and excerpts from the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Nand Lall, Bhai Senapat, (Dasmesh Guru’s court poets), Bhai Chaupa Singh and Bhai Desa Singh (infant Guru’s Baby Sitters/nurses), Bhatt Narbad Singh, Bhai Sukha Singh, Bhai Koer Singh, Bhai Kesar Singh Chiber, Giani Gian Singh, Bhai Santokh Singh, et al that authenticate Dasmesh Guru’s edict ‘Guru Maneo Granth’.

There are references to Mahan Kosh and Gurmat Martund of Bhai Kahn Singh Ji, (the grandson of Sarup Singh Ji, Mahant of Baba Ajapal Singh’s Dera), affirming that Dasmesh Guru Sahib invested Guru-ship in Guru Granth Sahib. You will also find answers to questions raised by ‘Purakh Guru’ and your misapprehensions about different versions of Guru Granth Sahib. I have sifted some more Sikh history resources for the pertinent information on the subject that I have added to my article ‘Shabd Guru’ and re-published it. You can read it on my website or I can send it you if you prefer.

If you are expecting a reply from the SGPC, you are barking up the wrong tree. This so-called mini parliament of the Sikhs has no time to reply to the real Sikhs much less to the sectarian Sikhs. The SGPC and Sikh seminaries are just launching platforms for the political opportunist Sikhs and lofty perches for the so-called Singh Sahibs and Jathedars in the Sikhism’s lucrative temporal hierarchy. And to them the Sant/Mahant Deras, Tuksaals and Dehdhari Gurudoms are humongous vote banks that they can’t afford to alienate even if it means violating Sikhism’s doctrines and their own so-called Hukamnamas.

You should heed your own advice, "At least have some common sense!" At least I have enough common sense to adhere to magnificent House and Sikh Panth of Guru Nanak instead of a cultist Guru’s sect. The Guru Granth Sahib’s celestial Gurbani instills in me the common sense to know that it is un-Sikh to indulge in cultism, occultism and surrealism practiced by the sectarians.

[rrss]

Whomsoever contemplates on the relevance of Shabad and has a relationship with God will understand that spirituality is all about the shabad and has been since the beginning of time. Any and all SatGurus have spiritually always been a shabad guru and will continue to be. Namdharis trying to prove otherwise or Sikhs trying to prove so using any other means are wasting their time.

[Guest]

What hypocrisy...