Tooriya

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

I think that Saram Khand is before Karam khand.

From what I gather , Saram khand = with spiritual efforts

Karam khad= his grace

In order we have, - Dharam khand = realm of Moral duty

Gian khand = realm of spiritual knowledge

Saram khand = realm of spiritual effort

Karam Khand = realm of divine grace

Sach khand = realm of Truth

the stages between saram, karam and sach khand are very close together compared to the first two which are Dharam and Gian khand

Agree.

My point was you do Saram first he will bless(karam

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj]

Wahegurujikakhalsawahegurujikifateh,

Thank you.

Neosinghji your input would be greatly appreciated.

Wahegurujikakhalsawahegurujikifateh

[luckysingh99]

Agree.

My point was you do Saram first he will bless(karam

Gurdeepji, I'm not saying you are wrong and neither was I trying to correct you.

(I don't ever try to correct, but try to give a valid point if possible!)

I respect the way you apply gurmat thinking into all topics and issues to justify your answers. This attitude gives you better and stronger answers than most learned members on here.

You are one of the rare few sikhs who sticks strictly with Nanakian philosophy and I admire you for that.

If ALL sikhs did this, then we would never have the problems and divides that we face today!!

The answers are ALWAYS in the Gurbani and you know that. There are too many sikhs that blindly follow some leaned person's katha and rely on that MORE than Gurbani itself.

I personally have seen and proved to myself that kathas can be misleading and off track somewhat.

Gurbani is there in black and white for the individual to learn for him/her self.

However, with issues like this topic, we have to go further and learn about these terms from other references. I find that you know yourself if you have gone far enough to learn when a reference occurs or pops up in gurbani and you understand it better.

I did say that this is a rather complicated issue for most of us and I tried to simplify it a little for all of us.

Gurbani looks and references many ancient vedic concepts and even yogic concepts. It does it in such a clever way that it doesn't reject them outright in any way.

An approach looking at the 3 gunas of maya and then having the 4th state that is beyond the influence of the 3 gunas, is the chautha padda or 4th state of consciousness.This is the same as the turiya avastha state or the turiya jagraat (awakening)

Yet it also mentions the realms and the same or similar stage attained after self effort of bhaghti.

Then it will also mention the ypgic effort and the different stages they do it through...etc...etc...

BUT, what is important throughout gurbani is exactly what is at the very begining, which is 'EK ONKAAR'

You see in the end, the sant doing bhagti, the gurmukh living the gurmukh way, the yogi doing his yoga...etc..etc... they ALL end up at ''EK ONKAAR''

This is why I said that the terms are not interchangeab;e, ie. you can't substitute the turiya state for the self effort 'realm of khand''... because then the stages that you look at won't make sense.

So, if the end goal is the letter O, for origin, Then all the other 25 letters of the alphabet can get there..ie.. A to O, B to O, C to O,...etc..

In the same way the approach can be avastha,consciousness,yogic or realms but the END result is the SAME.

The end result is the same as the beginning which is 'EK ONKAAR"

You are correct that further study is required to undertstand this topic more thoroughly, as most of us only know it from the surface.

Nevertheless, most of us can still have a good discussion about it to further our learning.

[N30S1NGH]

Turiya state is jevan mukht stage or bhramgyan stage. Where individual stays in this world in sehaj samadhi with dual consciouness (not literally but lack of better word just to explain)-

One consciouness is to engage in worldly duties/body functions just as an duty without any attachement or desire as just as witness/shaksi as supreme consciouness is always awaken sees everything.

Other half of consciouness fully merged with vahiguroo/real self-atma-paratma.

Saint or bhramgyani with jevan mukht state have destroyed their mind made out of rajo, tamo, satogun but still operates only in satogun at their will/hakum, with their dual consciousness in turiya avastha for worldy duties

Now after turiya avastha there is another state its called turiya tith avastha or bedah mukht avastha where saint have totally destroyed their mind made of- rajo, tamo, sato/maya and also rose totally above from jagrath, suupan, sukhopat avastha..in that state usually there is no coming back to normal state, they are pure existence supreme consciousness awareness bliss, some of saints in that state- their disciples feed them forcefully just to keep them alive otherwise usually they release their body pretty soon this is not be confused with state of being in samadhi for 6 months or years, they are usually at dasam dwaur as dasam dwaur provide nourishment to an individual bodily needs- thrist, food etc..bhramgyan is state beyond dasam dwar or panch shabad dhuniyas etc

Difference between turiya avastha (jevan mukht/sehaj samadhi avastha) and turiya tith avastha (bedah mukht avastha) is difference of will of an saint based on hakum not difference of gatti (higher or lower), both state is same, not higher or lower. It's just many saints based on hakum of vahiguroo stay longer in sehaj or turiya avastha to benefit human kind and other go in turiya tith state to release their body based on hakum.

Please see below for more information on bhramgyani state and dual consciousness:

This is must listen. Please listen to audio by sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale regarding characteristics of Jevan Mukht and Bedah Mukht. Basically people who cannot understand punjabi...i will try to explain as much my buddhi can:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Baba_Jagjit_Singh_%28Harkhowal_wale%29/Man_Budh_Atam/08--Baba.Jagjit.Singh.%28Harkhowal.wale%29--Aatma.Ki.Hai.mp3 (From 80.55 minutes until end)

Jevan Mukht- A person who is jevan mukht stays in sehaj avastha, have double consciousnesses, can engage in worldly duties because their sattvic mind(satoguni mind) is still there to do parchar/spread love/kindness to this world, rajo and tamogun portion of mind its destroyed.

Bedah Mukht- A person who is bedah mukht can only survive days, they are in nirvkalap samadhi(non transcendental meditative state), they have totally negate their mind (made of rajo, tamo, sato), antish karan, there is no coming back, they cannot do kriya on their own, their disciples try to feed them just to keep them alive to see them in smadhi.

Sant Hari Singh Ji Randhawale said in divan, he came across with such one person of bedah mukht avastha who was at bedah muhkht avastha at haridvar, there were lines of people who were awaiting to do their darshan.

People who don't beleive in great sakhiya baba deep singh ji cutting their head and fighting or bhai mani singh shaheedi should research more on bedah mukht avastha before getting stuck in web of sansas(doubts).

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Turiya state is jevan mukht stage or bhramgyan stage. Where individual stays in this world in sehaj samadhi with dual consciouness (not literally but lack of better word just to explain)-

One consciouness is to engage in worldly duties/body functions just as an duty without any attachement or desire as just as witness/shaksi as supreme consciouness is always awaken sees everything.

Other half of consciouness fully merged with vahiguroo/real self-atma-paratma.

Saint or bhramgyani with jevan mukht state have destroyed their mind made out of rajo, tamo, satogun but still operates only in satogun at their will/hakum, with their dual consciousness in turiya avastha for worldy duties

Now after turiya avastha there is another state its called turiya tith avastha or bedah mukht avastha where saint have totally destroyed their mind made of- rajo, tamo, sato/maya and also rose totally above from jagrath, suupan, sukhopat avastha..in that state usually there is no coming back to normal state, they are pure existence supreme consciousness awareness bliss, some of saints in that state- their disciples feed them forcefully just to keep them alive otherwise usually they release their body pretty soon this is not be confused with state of being in samadhi for 6 months or years, they are usually at dasam dwaur as dasam dwaur provide nourishment to an individual bodily needs- thrist, food etc..bhramgyan is state beyond dasam dwar or panch shabad dhuniyas etc

Difference between turiya avastha (jevan mukht/sehaj samadhi avastha) and turiya tith avastha (bedah mukht avastha) is difference of will of an saint based on hakum not difference of gatti (higher or lower), both state is same, not higher or lower. It's just many saints based on hakum of vahiguroo stay longer in sehaj or turiya avastha to benefit human kind and other go in turiya tith state to release their body based on hakum.

Guru Sahib made things easy.

Brahamgyani makes things complicated.

[N30S1NGH]

Guru Sahib made things easy.

Brahamgyani makes things complicated.

Guru Sahib made things easy.

Brahamgyani makes things complicated.

Bit contradictory and dualistic statement as guru sahib himself is bhramgyani and guru avtar and there is no dualism as such.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Bit contradictory and dualistic statement as guru sahib himself is bhramgyani and guru avtar and there is no dualism as such.

Guru Sahib made things easy.

Nowdays so called brahamgyani makes things complicated.

No contradiction left now. :biggrin2:

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

You are correct that further study is required to undertstand this topic more thoroughly, as most of us only know it from the surface.

Nevertheless, most of us can still have a good discussion about it to further our learning.

Bit confused, luckysing99 your thoughts on this shabad.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Aasaa Mehalaa 5 ||

ਸਸੂ ਤੇ ਪਿਰਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਵਾਖਿ ॥

Sasoo Thae Pir Keenee Vaakh ||

I have been separated from my Beloved by Maya (my mother-in-law).

ਦੇਰ ਜਿਠਾਣੀ ਮੁਈ ਦੂਖਿ ਸੰਤਾਪਿ ॥

Dhaer Jithaanee Muee Dhookh Santhaap ||

Hope and desire (my younger brother-in-law and sister-in-law) are dying of grief.

ਘਰ ਕੇ ਜਿਠੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਚੂਕੀ ਕਾਣਿ ॥

Ghar Kae Jithaerae Kee Chookee Kaan ||

I am no longer swayed by the fear of Death (my elder brother-in-law).

ਪਿਰਿ ਰਖਿਆ ਕੀਨੀ ਸੁਘੜ ਸੁਜਾਣਿ ॥੧॥

Pir Rakhiaa Keenee Sugharr Sujaan ||1||

I am protected by my All-knowing, Wise Husband Lord. ||1||

ਸੁਨਹੁ ਲੋਕਾ ਮੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Sunahu Lokaa Mai Praem Ras Paaeiaa ||

Listen, O people: I have tasted the elixir of love.

ਦੁਰਜਨ ਮਾਰੇ ਵੈਰੀ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿਵਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Dhurajan Maarae Vairee Sanghaarae Sathigur Mo Ko Har Naam Dhivaaeiaa ||1|| Rehaao ||

The evil ones are dead, and my enemies are destroyed. The True Guru has given me the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥

Prathhamae Thiaagee Houmai Preeth ||

First, I renounced my egotistical love of myself.

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਲੋਗਾ ਰੀਤਿ ॥

Dhutheeaa Thiaagee Logaa Reeth ||

Second, I renounced the ways of the world.

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਦੁਰਜਨ ਮੀਤ ਸਮਾਨੇ ॥

Thrai Gun Thiaag Dhurajan Meeth Samaanae ||

Renouncing the three qualities, I look alike upon friend and enemy.

ਤੁਰੀਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਪਛਾਨੇ ॥੨॥

Thureeaa Gun Mil Saadhh Pashhaanae ||2||

And then, the fourth state of bliss was revealed to me by the Holy One. ||2||

ਸਹਜ ਗੁਫਾ ਮਹਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਬਾਧਿਆ ॥

Sehaj Gufaa Mehi Aasan Baadhhiaa ||

In the cave of celestial bliss, I have obtained a seat.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦੁ ਵਾਜਿਆ ॥

Joth Saroop Anaahadh Vaajiaa ||

The Lord of Light plays the unstruck melody of bliss.

ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

Mehaa Anandh Gur Sabadh Veechaar ||

I am in ecstasy, contemplating the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸਿਉ ਰਾਤੀ ਧਨ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੩॥

Pria Sio Raathee Dhhan Sohaagan Naar ||3||

Imbued with my Beloved Husband Lord, I am the blessed, happy soul-bride. ||3||

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬੋਲੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

Jan Naanak Bolae Breham Beechaar ||

Servant Nanak chants the wisdom of God;

ਜੋ ਸੁਣੇ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਪਾਰਿ ॥

Jo Sunae Kamaavai S Outharai Paar ||

One who listens and practices it, is carried across and saved.

ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

Janam N Marai N Aavai N Jaae ||

He is not born, and he does not die; he does not come or go.

ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਓਹੁ ਰਹੈ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੨॥

Har Saethee Ouhu Rehai Samaae ||4||2||

He remains blended with the Lord. ||4||2||

[luckysingh99]

There is a lot in that shabad and for me there are also 2 ways of looking at it. The message is more deeper than the literal meaning.

I will spend some time on it and try and do word for word where I can.

The way I see it, is that the 'Husband ' is the Lord as we all know, this means that all the other relatives represent different qualities and things about us, within us and around the world !

Which part do you find typically confusing ??

NOTE- after the Rahao line, the shabad continues to describe 'HOW'? with regards to the statement in that rahao.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

If we look this shabad through khand.

Which khand this shabad is starting from(I think first or second khand).