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genie

How the taliban are successful against the invading western forces

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I've been analyzing the situation of the taliban in Afghanistan and how our own Khalistan forces of the past have the same sort of determination and faith when engaging the enemy foe. Obviously we have massive difference in faith / ideology and war/ peace time codes of conduct however we can now see in this corrupt world were the rich get richer and poor get poorer and the major powers of the day do not want to let the smaller nations breath the air of freedom and independence .....only through military force do things change drastically politically and the aggressors are forced to the negotiating table after they have seen they cant win with their foolish violence oppression and state terrorism against the population of a targeted community.

The taliban will take over Afghanistan once the Americans and other nato forces leave, its only a matter of time. Looking back at the Khalistan forces they had the same determination to shake off the shackles of the occupying genocidal imperialist power (indian government) but lacked funds, numbers, advanced military training, lack of geo-political allies. The taliban are lucky they have covert supply chains from pakistan's ISI, Russia, Iran, arab / muslim countries, muslim NGO's, have enough numbers (ie indigenous pasthuns of the area), terrain they know well, etc.

Just wondered if Sikhs were not located in such a messed up in geo-political set up stemming from the mistakes of 1947 .... Khalistan would have been established by now especially by exercise of arms.

Edited by genie
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Good question. I've been pondering this issue myself, and I think where we fail is not through the determination or intelligence of our enemy, but the fact is we are betrayed by our own fellow Sikhs time and time again. Panjab Police was, and is, composed of Sikhs that have absolutely no compunction in detaining, torturing, and killing other Sikhs at the behest of the government. Why? Personal gain such as possible promotions, increased standing amongst superiors, juicy pensions, etc. We are not united. That is not to say Muslims jihadists are all sailing in the same boat, but with our lot you just can't predict when you're going to be sold out by someone who's been bought. A prolonged, painful, and tough insurgency cannot succeed when the odds are overwhelmingly stacked against a small number of individuals who wish to affect change. Bottom line: trust. We are fickle, greedy, and materialistic. You can't win freedom when you're constantly looking over your shoulder expecting the worst from the very people you're fighting for.

Edited by VanHelsingh
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As you've mentioned, the Kharkoo Singhs were just as determined and motivated. But in the end some factors went against us. One, Punjab does not have dense jungles or mountains. If we had jungles like the LTTE did Sri Lanka or currently the Naxalites in India, no way anyone could have beaten the Sikhs. If not jungles, then atleast mountains like the Taliban have in Afghanistan from where they hide and launch their attacks. But Sikhs had neither of these advantages. Instead Sikhs had to rely on the good will of the people of Punjab to give them shelter. Many times, some villager(called a Taut) would inform the police and have the Kharkoo killed. The police had created such a network of Tauts all over Punjab that every village had a Taut who would inform the police about the happenings of the village and collect his reward money. It is difficult to carry out an effective querilla warfare under such disadvantage.

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False encounters swung the pendulum in favour of the authorities IMO. Where's the honour in that? :blush2:

Edited by VanHelsingh
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The Indians are masters of low cost warfare, something they inherited from the British. If anyone causes problems internally, they can be overwhelmed with masses of police, paramilitaries and soldiers who are cheap to train and equip. A low level insurgency with no understanding of supply/logistics, intelligence, engineering etc is always doomed to fail. A major enemy with sophisticated equipment, training and organisation would cut through them even if the odds might seem in India's favour, like during the war with China. To contrast Hindustan with the old Mughalstan, the Mughals spent too much on their own decadence. India is poor, the people there will always do anything for a quick buck.

The Americans on the other hand, unlike the Indians, spend ridiculously high amounts on their armed forces and they end up with the exact opposite problem. No one dares take them on with tanks, surface groups, fighter jets or missiles, but their enemies know if they stretch them out far enough and for long enough they can bankrupt them. Fighting for short term goals against the Yanks would be just half a strike.

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Actually, despite the lack of forest cover the movement gained a lot of ground. The turning point against the movement happened when the kharkoos convinced the Punjab populace to boycott the elections. Baba Thakur Singh ji Bhindrenvale told people to take part in the elections b/c a boycott would set the movement back by a huge amount. The kharkoos and the people ignored the bachans of a bhramgyani. Thinking they knew better they boycotted the elections and Congress was elected. The election of Congress turned the tide against the Khalsa b/c of all their low tactics.

When will the movement start again?

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Actually, despite the lack of forest cover the movement gained a lot of ground. The turning point against the movement happened when the kharkoos convinced the Punjab populace to boycott the elections. Baba Thakur Singh ji Bhindrenvale told people to take part in the elections b/c a boycott would set the movement back by a huge amount. The kharkoos and the people ignored the bachans of a bhramgyani. Thinking they knew better they boycotted the elections and Congress was elected. The election of Congress turned the tide against the Khalsa b/c of all their low tactics.

True. This was one of the major factors for the downfall of the movement. Sikhs should never have boycotted the elections, consequently making the congress win. Actually we can say there were a number of reasons for the downfall to have happened.

-Boycotting elections. Congress of Beanta should not have won.

-Lack of forest, mountain cover was also a contributing factor because it meant Kharkoos had to depend on the good will of the people for their survival. People also have Tauts amongst them.

-Benazir Bhutto going against the ISI, and betraying the Sikhs. She not only shared intelligence with the GOI, but even handed over some Kharkoos to the Indian security forces who were later all killed. In the end, look how Karma got her back.

-The Punjab police. They were also overwhelmingly Sikhs. So the war between PP and Kharkoos, both sides were Sikhs. Any side that were killed, it was essentially Sikhs that were dying. In the early years of Kharkoo movement, many PP men were sympathizers of the Kharkoos and would even provide them with intelligence People like KPS gill knew this, so he started to make his black cats(fake kharkoos) kill PP families to turn PP totally against the Kharkoos.

Edited by Jonny101
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When will the movement start again?

It won't --- well, not from within Panjab at least. :strong:

It's like wishing to re-learn the piano after 20 years of not touching the darn thing. You can't just settle into that groove overnight. There's so many mitigating factors that mean any such movements will be severely hampered by the modern-day situation in Panjab, namely the lack of desire on the part of the population of Panjab to weather the storm and see the thing through until the end. The aim should be to join people with Sikhi, and improve their circumstances in their daily lives, i.e. education, standard of living, etc. Another period of unrest will all but finish off Panjab for good. Our propensity for wrongdoing is the true root of why Guru Sahib is disappointed with us. If we (and those of them living over there) took responsibility for living and conducting themselves in a truly Sikh way we'd be unstoppable. A small minority of dedicated Singhs with the best of intentions can't change the gundh that has rotted the hearts and minds of the rest of the Sikh population.

Edited by VanHelsingh
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Only one thing killed Khalistani movement and that was the construction of electric fence between Punjab and Pakistan. After the construction of the electric fence Sikhs have no place to hide or get weapons. Otherwise, there is no way in hell that the Indian government would have won this war, in fact, before the fence Inian govt. was almost ready to give everyhting to Sikhs (remember PM Chandershekar and his words) I am not saying that Pakistanis were always our friends, but Sikhs were able to use that area for many purposes. My understanding is that the fence idea was given to India by Israel. Even Israelis are able to stop most Palestinians actions by constructing the fence.

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Regarding parchaar. I think thats long term goal you looking and alot of effort with minimum return, even then you are not doing the right parchaar. What you need a parchar that destroys the myth that you cant be sikh if you dont have the 5ks and become amritdhari. Imagine in 1946 when dalits were offering to become Sikhs so that Sikhs could have a country but the castist Sikh leaders rejected their brothers because they did not like lower castes, imagine had SGPC not drawn up the disasterous rehat maryada that state unless you have kesh and other k's you are not a guru's Sikh and had not isolated millions of hindu punjabis who called themselves Sikhs. Imagine all this how our kaum would have faired.

All these diasterous decisions have been made by enemies within who call themselves Sikhs but their actions are not of those of Siikhs.

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Genie jee, doing parchar does not mean we have to compromise on sikh principles. Just look at the recent news of a hundred Dalits who became sikhs in madhya pradesh. They are now full keshadharis, their women also wear dastars, they wake up at amritvela keeping full rahit. Hundreds more are said to want to become amritdharis, because of which another Amrit sanchar will be conducted soon in the summer.

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Genie jee, doing parchar does not mean we have to compromise on sikh principles. Just look at the recent news of a hundred Dalits who became sikhs in madhya pradesh. They are now full keshadharis, their women also wear dastars, they wake up at amritvela keeping full rahit. Hundreds more are said to want to become amritdharis, because of which another Amrit sanchar will be conducted soon in the summer.

I don't agree with Genie Ji's assessment of who is or isn't a Sikh, but I can appreciate the perspective from which he's presenting his argument.

I'm reminded of something I read quite recently regarding the issue of Dr. Ambedkar and the millions of Dalits (known as Mahars) who were on the verge of becoming Sikhs back in the middle of last century. Apparently they all converted to Buddhism, and one particular journalist from the West has been back to chart their progress. From a purely secular perspective they are doing well; they're educated, empowered, and basically each generation is improving on the progress of the previous generation, and are becoming staunch middle-class Indians which is mind-blowing progress considering their origins. They live in mostly Mahar urban neighbourhoods, but even then they note there's still a fair amount of discrimination from non-Mahars as a result of their past, despite their obvious progress and the passage of time.

However the village-dwelling Mahars are surrounded by Hindus, and these rural Hindus haven't forgotten who these Mahars were, and unfortunately with the passage of time, there's a lot of confusion that has crept into their thinking, as well as undercurrents of discrimination which the Mahars report is still present. The journalist notes how in the houses of these rural Buddhist Mahars there's the obvious Buddha statues, but there's also idols and paintings of Vishnu, Shiva, etc., and they even greet each other with the salutation 'Ram Ram'. It's a tragedy that despite unshackling themselves from the Hindu caste system, on account of simply being in India and being around predominantly Hindus and the Hindu way of life, they are gradually being absorbed into the traditional hierarchy once again.

If we try to transpose this to Sikh systems of living back home, we'd be kidding ourselves (and being deliberately myopic) if we said caste was no longer an issue amongst us. It's all good and well congratulating each other on the Dalits who converted to Sikhi a few months ago, but the true test will be to see how well are they actually treated from now onwards, i.e. will they be allowed into places of worship or other institutions where they were barred from entering on account of their previous caste status, etc?

Anyway, the thing about parchaar catering to non-5K wearing Sikhs - by conceding the point they ARE Sikhs - will never happen. It will send completely the wrong message, and undo years of parchaar which tried to join patits to Gursikhi. That's not to say alienation of patits is the correct option, but I don't see the problem in becoming a baptised Sikh. The unnecessary vilification - occasionally bordering on hate - which seems to be encouraged by some quarters is not needed. We simply don't know what dwells in the hearts of individuals when it comes to Sikhi, and at what stage they may find themselves on their personal spiritual journey.

In the West I can see a point in time when spiritually-attuned folk who are born into Sikh families but not adhering to Gursikhi will turn to the likes of Buddhism if all they hear is how they're sinners for not taking Amrit. That's where the level of sophistication needs to be ramped up when it comes to parchaar in order to hold onto these individuals with great spiritual potential, and not give them the impression they are being turned out on their ear for being patits. But I don't think the capability and will is present amongst the learned in our faith to engage with people who perhaps aren't sinners or missionaries, but nevertheless have deep, probing questions that will help them comprehend whatever it is about Sikhi they wish to know.

Of course, patits who consider Sikhi a joke, and have no intention of changing their ways are not the kind of folks I'm referring to.

Edited by VanHelsingh
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