Guru Nanak sahib at Mecca

[Pappi9]

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[Jonny101]

UKLondonSikh Jee, all Sikh scholars knowledgeable in Gurbani grammar have translated that Shabad as the Mandhir rotating in front of Bhagat Namdev Jee, even the Sampradayak scholars have translated to mean that but if you still choose to mistranslated that Shabad to suite your views then that is your choice. A Sikh should change his views to suite Gurbani, not mistranslate Gurbani to suite his views. No credible Sikh scholar has given the interpretation that you have and that is a fact. As for the the Makkah rotation, that is mentioned by Bhai Gurdas Jee in understandable language. If you still deny it, what can one say.

[MOD]

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[UKLondonSikh]

Jonny Paji i do respect your interpretation and those of esteemed scholars within the Panth's history. However, as you know in the pro-Gurmat school of thought within Sikhi everybody is united in the belief that Gurbani opposes miracles and that the miracles referred to in Gurbani are metaphoric and illustrative. Paji there is no concrete evidence that Bhai Gurdas Ji truly mentioned the rotation of Mecca - as you know there are those that deny this.

I don't really wish to extendedly debate upon this with you Jonny Paji (as i truly have massive respect for you as a sincere GurSikh even if I might disagree with you on this issue) but I think the rejection of miracles is central to keeping the Panth strong and that's why I've expressed my beliefs. When we accept the rotation of Mecca etc, it weakens certain minds within the Panth to be susceptible prey to believing in miracles like ... the virgin birth of Jesus and his resurrection after a few days in a coffin ... half-elephant half-human "gods" ... or Guga Pirs or Prophet Muhammad splitting the Moon into two parts ... or Sikhs participating in mundan, tewa, jaath-paath ... you name it. I agree that Gurbani should always be interpreted in a Gurmat way as opposed to literally when it may suit a particular viewpoint.

Like I said Paji, overall we need to put our minor differences aside (though by all means we can respectfully debate them) and focus on using what our enemies have done to us in not freeing Bhai Rajoana, Professor Bhullar and others whilst freeing a proven murderer like Kishori Lal and now acquitting Sajjan Kumar ... and focus the energy and anger we have inside us on how we are going to uplift the Panth by building more schools, paying for more education for poor Sikh youth, building more drug rehabiliation and sports facilities in the villages, stamping out those who aid female infanticide and wretchedly preserve the caste system as well as trying to extract what we can for the long term benefit of the Panth as a 25million united front from Manmohan Singh before his term as Prime Minister of India ends.

[GPS]

UK Londonsikh

Your dhundha and his missionary collegues openly state that there is no reincarnation in sikhi. They also do not believe that there is an entity such as soul.

Now you tell me if there is no reincarnation obviously there is no soul also. So do not try to defend them with your skewed logic. They call Naam simran as parroting.

My straightforward question to you

Do you believe in reincarnation?

[GPS]

Jonny Paji i do respect your interpretation and those of esteemed scholars within the Panth's history. However, as you know in the pro-Gurmat school of thought within Sikhi everybody is united in the belief that Gurbani opposes miracles and that the miracles referred to in Gurbani are metaphoric and illustrative. Paji there is no concrete evidence that Bhai Gurdas Ji truly mentioned the rotation of Mecca - as you know there are those that deny this.

Miracles are not caused. They do happen with God's will who come to aid of his devotees.

Before you go any futher with your missionary mindset, read below

ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੈਆਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਿਕਸਿਆ ਥੰਮ੍‍ ਉਪਾੜਿ ॥

ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਨਖੀ ਬਿਦਾਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਲੀਆ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥ 4 ॥ (ਭੈਰਉ, ਮਹਲਾ 3, 21, ਸਫ਼ਾ 1133)

The above is from Guru Granth sahib when prahlad is saved by God through Nar singh. Is that not a miracle? If not then what is it.

Below is vaar Bhai gurdas ji

ਬਾਬਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਮਕੇ ਗਇਆ ਨੀਲ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਰੇ ਬਨਵਾਰੀ।

Baabaa Dhiri Makay Gaiaa Neel Basatr Dhaaray Banavaaree.

बाबा फिरि मੴके गइआ नील बसत्र धारे बनवारी ।

Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.

1 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੩੨ ਪੰ. ੧

ਆਸਾ ਹਥਿ ਕਿਤਾਬ ਕਛਿ ਕੂਜਾ ਬਾਂਗ ਮੁਸਲਾ ਧਾਰੀ।

Aasaa Hadi Kitaab Kachhi Koojaa Baang Mousalaa Dhaaree.

आसा हथि किताब कछि कूजा बांग मुसੴला धारी ।

He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.

2 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੩੨ ਪੰ. ੨

ਬੈਠਾ ਜਾਇ ਮਸੀਤ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਿਥੈ ਹਾਜੀ ਹਜਿ ਗੁਜਾਰੀ।

Baitdaa Jaai Maseet Vichi Jidai Haajee Haji Gujaaree.

बैठा जाइ मसीत विचि जिथै हाजी हजि गुजारी ।

Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੩੨ ਪੰ. ੩

ਜਾ ਬਾਬਾ ਸੁਤਾ ਰਾਤਿ ਨੋ ਵਲਿ ਮਹਰਾਬੇ ਪਾਇ ਪਸਾਰੀ।

Jaa Baabaa Soutaa Raati No Vali Maharaabay Paai Pasaaree.

जा बाबा सुता राति नो वलि महराबे पाइ पसारी ।

When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,

4 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੩੨ ਪੰ. ੪

ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਾਰੀ ਲਤਿ ਦੀ ਕੇਹੜਾ ਸੁਤਾ ਕੁਫਰ ਕੁਫਾਰੀ?

Jeevani Maaree Lati Dee Kayharhaa Soutaa Kudhar Kudhaaree.

जीवणि मारी लति दी केहड़ा सुता कुफर कुफारी ।

The qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.

5 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੩੨ ਪੰ. ੫

ਲਤਾ ਵਲਿ ਖੁਦਾਇਦੇ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਪਇਆ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਿਗਾਰੀ।

Lataa Vali Khudaai Day Kiu Kari Paiaa Hoi Bajigaaree.

लता वलि खुदाइ दे किउ करि पइआ होइ बजिगारी ।

Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.

6 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੩੨ ਪੰ. ੬

ਟੰਗੋਂ ਪਕੜਿ ਘਸੀਟਿਆ ਫਿਰਿਆ ਮਕਾ ਕਲਾ ਦਿਖਾਰੀ।

Tangon Pakarhi Ghaseetiaa phiriaa Makaa Kalaa Dikhaaree.

टंगों पकड़ि घसीटिआ फिरिआ मੴका कला दिखारी ।

Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.

7 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੩੨ ਪੰ. ੭

ਹੋਇ ਹੈਰਾਨੁ ਕਰੇਨਿ ਜੁਹਾਰੀ ॥੩੨॥

Hoi Hairaanu Karayni Juhaaree ॥32॥

होइ हैरानु करेनि जुहारी ॥३२॥

All got surprised and they all bowed.

8 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੩੨

UK london sikh, read above vaar and tell me why you say Bhai Gurdas did not write that mecca rotated. Do you know meaning of ਫਿਰਿਆ in line ਟੰਗੋਂ ਪਕੜਿ ਘਸੀਟਿਆ ਫਿਰਿਆ ਮਕਾ ਕਲਾ ਦਿਖਾਰੀ।

[GPS]

UkLondonsikh writes

Paji it's highly questionable whether such a slab exists in Mecca attesting to the fact that Mecca rotated

It seems you do not read what i write and then beat about bush. Regarding plaque i quoted dialogue with Peer behlol and not qazi of mecca.

Do you know who was Peer behlol. Read below what i wrote and If you contest this plaque is not there then i will post credible ref for you.

I had written

quote

Now there is a slab erected since that time in memory of Guru sahib's visit and a place where Guru sahib had

dialogue with Peer behlol. He became Guru ji's disciple and did bhagti till his last breath where he had dialogue with Guru

ji. To turn him into a disciple was also a miracle.

The above is narrated by Swami anandmurthy in his famous poem " Song of swan bird" he passed by that place on foot on his way

to norway sometime in 1916 around.

unquote

[luckysingh99]

I think we have to understand that something must have happened at mecca, otherwise we would have no sakhi.

As far as I understand and perceive it is -YES, Guruji made it appear that God is everywhere and the impression was that the kabbah was visible from every direction.

However, I think what Gurdeep ji is saying is that the whole geography of the world didn't physically change as we know it, but YES it appeared to be rotating to the person so that a lesson could be learned.

But, ALSO, I do believe that ANYTHING is possible by Akaal Purakh and according to his will.

If he wants to move a mountain, then he can.

I think this is what we should understand.

We have to remember that miracles, riddhi siddhi..etc for Illusion and maya worldy purposes are forbidden in gurmat.

To teach us God can move the whole world around us whilst we take every step. This happens so that all the interactions, encounters and choices made are still controlled by none other than his Divine Hukam.

I have witnessed the 'Acts of God'' many times in my life.

I have seen things that most would say are impossible or that the odds are billion to 1..etc..

I'm sure we all have and these thing happens because they were meant to be.

I'm sure that Gurdeepji would agree, that -

1) God can do things miraculously according to his master plan.

2) it is not gurmat for us to attempt or carry out such illusions and magical acts. any extra sensory powers that someone may have should be used to Join and merge with the divine.

Guru Nanak ji was on a different level to any of us. He could astral travel at will to anywhere he wanted and we have sakhis about such events.

However, his idea of teaching was Not like jesus where the food just miraculously appears to feed the five thousand , but it was to instill that philosophy and discipline for gurmat into the minds of the lost people.

If it required an illusion as such to give this message, then of course it happened as the one saw it, but the physical geography was still there all along.

After all, we are in the maya illusion, so what is there to deny about an illusion within an illusion.

The important thing is that we don't define Sikhism or the gurus to acts of miracles that are present in all other religions. Sikhism is beyond that.

[GPS]

I think we have to understand that something must have happened at mecca, otherwise we would have no sakhi.

As far as I understand and perceive it is -YES, Guruji made it appear that God is everywhere and the impression was that the kabbah was visible from every direction.

However, I think what Gurdeep ji is saying is that the whole geography of the world didn't physically change as we know it, but YES it appeared to be rotating to the person so that a lesson could be learned.

But, ALSO, I do believe that ANYTHING is possible by Akaal Purakh and according to his will.

If he wants to move a mountain, then he can.

I think this is what we should understand.

We have to remember that miracles, riddhi siddhi..etc for Illusion and maya worldy purposes are forbidden in gurmat.

To teach us God can move the whole world around us whilst we take every step. This happens so that all the interactions, encounters and choices made are still controlled by none other than his Divine Hukam.

I have witnessed the 'Acts of God'' many times in my life.

I have seen things that most would say are impossible or that the odds are billion to 1..etc..

I'm sure we all have and these thing happens because they were meant to be.

I'm sure that Gurdeepji would agree, that -

1) God can do things miraculously according to his master plan.

2) it is not gurmat for us to attempt or carry out such illusions and magical acts. any extra sensory powers that someone may have should be used to Join and merge with the divine.

Guru Nanak ji was on a different level to any of us. He could astral travel at will to anywhere he wanted and we have sakhis about such events.

However, his idea of teaching was Not like jesus where the food just miraculously appears to feed the five thousand , but it was to instill that philosophy and discipline for gurmat into the minds of the lost people.

If it required an illusion as such to give this message, then of course it happened as the one saw it, but the physical geography was still there all along.

After all, we are in the maya illusion, so what is there to deny about an illusion within an illusion.

The important thing is that we don't define Sikhism or the gurus to acts of miracles that are present in all other religions. Sikhism is beyond that.

Ridhi sidhi and miracles mentioned in sikhi are not same. Ridhi sidhi is that what a seeker acquires on Naam simran path. He uses these for selfish ends.When he does that his spiritual progress stops. That is what sidh ghost was.

But miracles are part and parcel of those who have progressed on spiritual path. But they do not use these. Then miracles are an act of God when he comes to aid of his devotees.

Mecca did rotate as mentioned by Bhai Gurdas ji in his vaars clearly. Someone is trying to misinterpret it so that missionary agenda of destroying sikh history is accomplished. then he is making a blanket statement about non existence of a plaque where guru sahib had dialogue with peer Behlol.That is what is arrogance.To make a statement with arrogant mind ( Man hatha) without knowing facts.Gurdeep does not only refute this but also calls it as biparvad. Has he seen god? Then why does he believe in that.Then i call that biparvad for him as he has no faith.

I know some miracles from my personal knowledge.There was a Gursikh technician serving in Military Engg service at rawalpindi ( now in pakistan). He used to finish his allotted work and go to a hill nearby to do naam abhias. One day someone reported that to chief engineer ( He was an englisman). To check this he went in his motorcar to hill and found gursikh in samadhi. He motored down to workshop and found the same Gursikh working in workshop. He repeated the same act and found him at two places at same time. What was this? This was miracle caused by God and not by gursikh who came to know about it later from chief engineer.

[sat]

what about Panja Sahib ji etc where their is clearly a hand print and other Gurdwaras with foot prints water appeared and horse prints and furnaces cooled instantly, do we disregard those events to and say no miracles occured ?