Sarbat Statement On Uk Same Sex Marriage Bill

[sarbat]

Agree with this 100%, would be interested on Sarbat group's thoughts on the Akal takht and this particular edict..

Can OP share there own views on these two points?

I don't have a problem with people not understanding or even disagreeing with the akal takhts hukams but all must bow down and humbly accept them.

Gurfateh Ji

It is the duty of all Sikhs to respect and follow sandesh from Akal Takht Sahib. However, this relies on those exercising the authority of ATS maintaining that respect. Our Guru does not teach blind obedience. It is not a case of accepting all sandesh or none. Akal has blessed us all with the ability to think and reason. He further blessed us with Sikhi, to help direct our thinking and reasoning.

The Jatehdars Sahibs exercising the authority of ATS repeatedly act in manner that puts them at odds with the Panth. Attending the khumbh mela, comments about women inviting rape, weak positions on important Sikh issues - Prof. Bhullar, Rajonwala, '84 reparations and criminal case.

There have been two sandesh in relation to homosexuality. Both were in response to non-Sikh events - one was a Canadian parliament vote, and the other a ruling by the Dehli courts. In our humble opinion, it is not the role of ATS to behave like a blogger or a newspaper and comment on current affairs (we reference the Delhi rape comments again). These sandesh do not reason but react in violent and ill thought out way to external events.

We are not arrogant enough to say that we are right and The ATS Jatehdars are wrong, but they need to do more than write what is nothing more than a press release. A sandesh from ATS needs to be rooted in Gurbani, not the personal opinions of the Jatehdars. To us, these sandesh look to be more based on Punjabi cultural bias and not on Gurbani. They have a duty to set out reasoning unambiguously - we do not think they have done that. Even if you do not agree with our position, surely we can all agree that ATS should be particularly cautious to avoid any accusations of cultural bias in what they put out, and in this case, there is the appearance of heavy cultural bias.

Fateh Ji

[Jonny101]

Gurfateh Ji

It is the duty of all Sikhs to respect and follow sandesh from Akal Takht Sahib. However, this relies on those exercising the authority of ATS maintaining that respect. Our Guru does not teach blind obedience. It is not a case of accepting all sandesh or none. Akal has blessed us all with the ability to think and reason. He further blessed us with Sikhi, to help direct our thinking and reasoning.

The Jatehdars Sahibs exercising the authority of ATS repeatedly act in manner that puts them at odds with the Panth. Attending the khumbh mela, comments about women inviting rape, weak positions on important Sikh issues - Prof. Bhullar, Rajonwala, '84 reparations and criminal case.

There have been two sandesh in relation to homosexuality. Both were in response to non-Sikh events - one was a Canadian parliament vote, and the other a ruling by the Dehli courts. In our humble opinion, it is not the role of ATS to behave like a blogger or a newspaper and comment on current affairs (we reference the Delhi rape comments again). These sandesh do not reason but react in violent and ill thought out way to external events.

We are not arrogant enough to say that we are right and The ATS Jatehdars are wrong, but they need to do more than write what is nothing more than a press release. A sandesh from ATS needs to be rooted in Gurbani, not the personal opinions of the Jatehdars. To us, these sandesh look to be more based on Punjabi cultural bias and not on Gurbani. They have a duty to set out reasoning unambiguously - we do not think they have done that. Even if you do not agree with our position, surely we can all agree that ATS should be particularly cautious to avoid any accusations of cultural bias in what they put out, and in this case, there is the appearance of heavy cultural bias.

Fateh Ji

Sarbat Jee, your premise of argument is that the Akal Takht Jathadar is wrong about not accepting homosexuals doing Anandkaraj because he made some other questionable moves in the past. So what you are saying is if a person makes one wrong move they lose the right to make any correct move in the future. This is faulty reasoning. You need to support your argument based on it's own merit rather then questioning the Akal Takht Jathadar. The Akal Takht's edict on homosexuality is not based on the Jathadars opinion but based on Sikh traditions and the teachings and lifestyle of the Gurus, Bhagats, Sikhs for the last 500 years.

No one is encouraging persecution of gays or saying they can't practice their lifestyle, go ahead. But why do you have to demand an Anand Karaj? by demanding that homsexuals be allowed the right to conduct an Anand Karaj you are saying Sikhs should accept violation of the Rehit Maryadha. The Anand Karaj is a very sacred ceremony between a Sikh man and Sikh woman.

[sarbat]

Sarbat Jee, your premise of argument is that the Akal Takht Jathadar is wrong about not accepting homosexuals doing Anandkaraj because he made some other questionable moves in the past. So what you are saying is if a person makes one wrong move they lose the right to make any correct move in the future. This is faulty reasoning. You need to support your argument based on it's own merit rather then questioning the Akal Takht Jathadar. The Akal Takht's edict on homosexuality is not based on the Jathadars opinion but based on Sikh traditions and the teachings and lifestyle of the Gurus, Bhagats, Sikhs for the last 500 years.

No one is encouraging persecution of gays or saying they can't practice their lifestyle, go ahead. But why do you have to demand an Anand Karaj? by demanding that homsexuals be allowed the right to conduct an Anand Karaj you are saying Sikhs should accept violation of the Rehit Maryadha. The Anand Karaj is a very sacred ceremony between a Sikh man and Sikh woman.

Khalsa Ji,

The jathedar's statement is not specifically about Anand Karaj but about homosexuality generally. This general statement, we believe, is flawed.

With regard to Anand Karaj, we share your reverence of it as a sacred institution. We go further and say that it should only be between two practising Gursikhs. How many gurdwaras nowadays conduct Anand Karaj ceremonies between non-practising Sikhs let alone non-Gurmukhs?

We believe that gay couples should have the right to marry in law. We also would like for Gursikh (and only Gursikh) same-sex couples to be able to make that commitment before their Guru. Anand Karaj should not be available to non-practising Sikhs, gay and straight alike. It is a disrespect to our Guru and to our Panth.

We think it is hypocritical that a haircut guy can marry a haircut girl in a Gurdwara, but two amritdhari Singhs or Kaurs cannot.

We are not so naive as to think that this is any easy clear cut topic, nor so arrogant as to say we are completely right. There are many questions that arise about the nature of homosexuality and homosexual relationships, the nature and role of Kaam in this, what bearing our past Karams have on all this. We say that it deserves a debate on the facts and merits, not on culturally dogmatic positions.

To be totally clear, we do not advocate or demand the right for non-practising Sikhs to have an Anand Karaj ceremony. Practising Sikh in my mind means a Gursikh.

With regard to the Rehat Maryada, I do not believe we ought to violate it, but the SGPC RM is deficient in many ways and needs revisiting (as it was supposed to have been every 20 or so years). For example, the SGPC RM says that Nitnem is only 3 banis, and lays down two different versions of Rehraas Sahib - one for private use and one for public.

Again, Sikhi is not about dogmatic following but about a reasoned approach, firmly rooted in Gurbani - and I emphasise this. We do not advocate anything that is contrary to Gurbani.

I hope this makes things clearer.

With respect,

Sarbat

[Pehlvan]

It is a complete contradiction to claim to have a reverence for marriage and then attempt to change it's very definition. Gurbani does not prescribe a list of dos and don'ts for every possible action. It does, however, talk about the five vices and the dirt that has accumulated on our minds. Honest reflection is needed on Gurbani rather than arrogantly asserting our own way. It is very intolerant to try to change the maryada of the gurdwara rather than accepting our own mistakes and trying to correct them.

As has been mentioned, all the Gurus, Bhagats, Gursikhs in history believed in the marriage of a man and a woman.....there is not one example to the contrary. This debate has only come up now because the west is now on the verge of accepting it. Those who are for gay marriages are actually following this modern-day liberal culture....hardly a view free from cultural bias. It is a culture that encourages selfishness and is totally anti-family, seeking to undermine marriage at every opportunity. All it talks about is 'my rights'.....but you never hear about 'my responsibilities'.

If we want the Panth to flourish, we need to bring strong family values back. Advocating gay marriage in Gurdwaras is irresponsible, absolutely wrong and should be opposed by every right minded Sikh.

[garch]

Gurfateh Ji

It is the duty of all Sikhs to respect and follow sandesh from Akal Takht Sahib. However, this relies on those exercising the authority of ATS maintaining that respect. Our Guru does not teach blind obedience. It is not a case of accepting all sandesh or none. Akal has blessed us all with the ability to think and reason. He further blessed us with Sikhi, to help direct our thinking and reasoning.

The Jatehdars Sahibs exercising the authority of ATS repeatedly act in manner that puts them at odds with the Panth. Attending the khumbh mela, comments about women inviting rape, weak positions on important Sikh issues - Prof. Bhullar, Rajonwala, '84 reparations and criminal case.

There have been two sandesh in relation to homosexuality. Both were in response to non-Sikh events - one was a Canadian parliament vote, and the other a ruling by the Dehli courts. In our humble opinion, it is not the role of ATS to behave like a blogger or a newspaper and comment on current affairs (we reference the Delhi rape comments again). These sandesh do not reason but react in violent and ill thought out way to external events.

We are not arrogant enough to say that we are right and The ATS Jatehdars are wrong, but they need to do more than write what is nothing more than a press release. A sandesh from ATS needs to be rooted in Gurbani, not the personal opinions of the Jatehdars. To us, these sandesh look to be more based on Punjabi cultural bias and not on Gurbani. They have a duty to set out reasoning unambiguously - we do not think they have done that. Even if you do not agree with our position, surely we can all agree that ATS should be particularly cautious to avoid any accusations of cultural bias in what they put out, and in this case, there is the appearance of heavy cultural bias.

Fateh Ji

I disagree with your position' but I respect your wish for clarity and reference to bani to support the sandesh. Hopefully the issue will claried so those affected can move on and hopefully live their lives as per guru jis path.

Wjkwjkf

[Deletedkp]

Sarbat,

I fully agree with what you trying to achieve but in reality can this be achieved?

I don’t think so, the Sikh religion and it's supporting religious body is run by uneducated village folk, who are homophobic to the core.

How can they pass such ruling?

[Pehlvan]

This attempt to change the meaning of marriage comes from people who are uneducated as to the benefits of marriage and it's necessity for the survival of the human race. Quite hypocritical really, seeing as none of us would be here today enjoying Vaheguru's wonderful creation if it was not for marriage. So, to attack and undermine it is uneducated, pathetic and a phobia in itself.

[garch]

Sarbat,

I fully agree with what you trying to achieve but in reality can this be achieved?

I don’t think so, the Sikh religion and it's supporting religious body is run by uneducated village folk, who are homophobic to the core.

How can they pass such ruling?

My gurbani knowledge isn't deep enough to answer quoting maharaj ji but I hope someone who's is does explain why this ruling is correct.

in very general terms living in grisht AND as a gurmukh means (to me anyway) living the life of a responsible householder, controlling our primal instincts (five vices) and contemplating on the shabd guru until we self-realise..

god has not designed our bodies for homosexuality, god has designed our bodies to do amongst other things procreate - whether it is black or white in bani is not therefore important to me as it is black and white in gods design for us..

what we desire/don't desire can be called natural if u like - for me desires are challenges that we must overcome if we are tread that ever so fine tight rope that leads us back to our origin

in my opinion homosexuality is the same as cutting kesh (does bani say cutting kesh is wrong?), not evil - but a waste of time and accepting it as 'natural' will only waste this precious life/opportunity.

hope Sarbat get their clarification and do not go against ATS sundesh (remember the countless stories of the great gursikhs that have disagreed with ATS hukams but not defied them)

bhul chuk maaf karne - not my intention to offend anybody

[Deletedkp]

My gurbani knowledge isn't deep enough to answer quoting maharaj ji but I hope someone who's is does explain why this ruling is correct.

in very general terms living in grisht AND as a gurmukh means (to me anyway) living the life of a responsible householder, controlling our primal instincts (five vices) and contemplating on the shabd guru until we self-realise..

god has not designed our bodies for homosexuality, god has designed our bodies to do amongst other things procreate - whether it is black or white in bani is not therefore important to me as it is black and white in gods design for us..

what we desire/don't desire can be called natural if u like - for me desires are challenges that we must overcome if we are tread that ever so fine tight rope that leads us back to our origin

in my opinion homosexuality is the same as cutting kesh (does bani say cutting kesh is wrong?), not evil - but a waste of time and accepting it as 'natural' will only waste this precious life/opportunity.

hope Sarbat get their clarification and do not go against ATS sundesh (remember the countless stories of the great gursikhs that have disagreed with ATS hukams but not defied them)

bhul chuk maaf karne - not my intention to offend anybody

As God has designed all beings in the universe and Animals live in hukum, animals don’t have free will.

So why is there homosexual behaviour within over 1500 non human species?

http://news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

[Deletedkp]

This attempt to change the meaning of marriage comes from people who are uneducated as to the benefits of marriage and it's necessity for the survival of the human race. Quite hypocritical really, seeing as none of us would be here today enjoying Vaheguru's wonderful creation if it was not for marriage. So, to attack and undermine it is uneducated, pathetic and a phobia in itself.

Early life of a human, did we marry? Was there even a concept of marriage?

Ok, lets look at this from a pure Sikh view by observing the Anand Karaj, I have read the 4 Laava, not once it mentions about a love between a Man and a Women.

It goes even deeper than the physical appearance, 4 Laava talks about the connection of two souls and surrendering yourself to Aakaal.

Then this comes back to our leaders who run the Sikh bodies, all village folk. Majority of decisions that are made by them are on cultural base and this will have an impact on their interpretation of the scriptures.