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End The Pakhand Of So Called 'agan Bhet' Ceremony


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So just to get this clear, when exactly is it alright to do agan bhet for a birdh saroop, like when they have become really birdh, or are you suggesting that we somehow, as shown in the pics, try to maintain the sanctity and form of the saroop and also digitize them?

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Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh I am utterly blown away, shocked and greatly hurt by this particular thread discussing the Agan Bhet sewa that will be taking place in Toronto this June.

I believe never, preserve them instead in sikh heritage center and digitized them as well as you mentioned. This form of satkar and preservation in sikh heritage center also will remind generation and

Whoever lives in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) in Ontario, Canada.... I CHALLENGE YOU to stand up and put an end to this pakhand which has destroyed so much of Sikh historical items in the past 100 y

But what is being shown is not truthful representation.

Moreover there is a big difference between a manuscript and its copies. Copies when they age i find nothing wrong in consigning those to flames.

A lot of the manuscripts themselves are copies of original items. From copies we can gain valuable information about the original item as well as history, time period, events, state of affairs, etc.

We should have sikh hertiage center to preserve them..we have british library preserved many puratan manuscripts with utmost satkar... is state of panth has gone so low that we need to now get tips from british library how to perserve old saroops? really?

Veer Jee,

state of Panth is really grim and hanging on a thin thread.

Forget about the thought that we have gone so low that we need to get tips from british library to preserve old saroops.

We are so low, that we don't even want to get the tips and actually learn something and do something positive!!!

So just to get this clear, when exactly is it alright to do agan bhet for a birdh saroop, like when they have become really birdh, or are you suggesting that we somehow, as shown in the pics, try to maintain the sanctity and form of the saroop and also digitize them?

In my opinion,

99% of the Saroops which are put for 'agan bhet'...they shouldn't even be there.

And let us remember, it's not only Saroops/Birs which are put for 'agan bhet'. Many other literature/paper with Gurbani on it and related to Gurbani are put for 'agan bhet' as well.

The only time when Saroops, Birs, Senchis, Gutkas, Pothis, literature, documents, etc..should be put for 'agan bhet' ..is under the following circumstances:

(Note: All of these bullet-points should be fulfilled in order to allow 'agan bhet' to go forward. If any one of these bullet-points are not matching with the situation of the item...then 'agan bhet' should not take place whatsoever).

The following is regardless of padched or not, regardless of ragmala or not, regardless of kachi bani or not, regardless of Dasam Granth combined with Guru Granth Sahib Jee or not, regardless of decorated item or not, regardless of paintings in the item or not, regardless of Patshahi 10vi written before a few lines at the end of Guru Granth Sahib Jee or not, etc....

'Agan Bhet; is okay when.....

  • the item in question does not hold any historical significance or associated to any figure/person of historical importance
  • the item in question is not a manuscript or a copy of a manuscript
  • the item in question is not handwritten
  • the item in question is not from an older printing press/type-writer where copies may be very limited and scarce.
  • the item in question is from a modern printing press and a new copy is readily available
  • after ALL sincere attempts have been made to restore the item and still it is not in condition to be used on even an once-per-year basis
  • the item has been approved for 'agan bhet' by inspection from a 5-member Panth Parvaan expert panel consisting of Panth Parvaan historians/scholars.
  • the item has been approved for 'agan bhet' by Tyaar-Bar-Tyaar Jeevan Valey Panj Piaarey (not any random 5 guys getting together and dressing up and holding swords in their hands).

So that means that......for example......if a Saroop/Bir was printed by printing press 10 years ago....it's pages are all wet...many pages are torn and missing....the binding is practically non-existent....the outer cover is of no use.....etc..........then...in this example the Saroop/Bir should NOT be put for 'agan bhet'.

Also, there needs to be a proper process. There needs to be registration (contact information of previous 'owner' and history behind the item) that takes place and put into a database for every single person that comes forward with an item, whether it is approved for 'agan bhet' or not. Like Neo Jee said, there needs to be some sort of Sikh Heritage Centre where all of this takes place and as well as the restoration and storage/display occurs as well.

We as a Panth need to get our act together. Our literature/history has been burned away in the past 100+ years..and is still happening before our eyes.

Our so-called Panthic institutions are giving permission to un-verified individuals...and who knows what damage they possibly have done behind our backs.

We all know about how Dilgeer had open access to Sikh Reference Library and how he ended up....

It takes time, patience and virtues to restore items and have a properly organized and sophisticated process/institution in place.....but it is worth it for Guru Granth Sahib Jee....for Sikh history...for Sikh survival.

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For those who want to learn how to preserve and Repair pothi sahibs, maharaj sarups, a new organisation has been setup in the UK; 'Pothi Seva'. Currently continous ongoing seva of pothi sahibs and 4-5 workshops have been organised around UK.

http://pothiseva.org.uk/

https://www.facebook.com/PothiSeva

Pothi Seva is a non-profit organisation that is committed to repairing, restoring and keeping the satkaar of the physical form of Gurbani in the form of Gutka Sahibs, Pothi Sahibs and Saroops of Aad Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

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Gurfateh jee,

Mere pyaare Singhoo, Please visit this website link.

http://prabhusewasimran.smugmug.com/SewaSambahalofPratanHastlikhit

In this link you will see around 300 Guru Granth Sahib Sawroop, 90 Dasam Granth Sawroop, and many more Hasth likhat Gurbani Gutke, pothiyaa have been given to Referance Library Amritsar.I have personally attended this sewa couple of times. Sikhs in uk, do you even know the big tragedy happened in 2009 bow Gurudwara east London incident where more then 9 Shri Guru Granth sahib swoops were half-burnt. At that time Sikh community was in deep sorrow then Sikh sangat approached Bhai Narinder singh jee, who helped uk sangat to built temporary Angeetha Sahib in uk so we can do sewa of those half-burnt Guroo Sahib Sawroop. Bhai Narinder is the only person who helped Sikh sangat to built reference library by giving them those precious hasith likhat anmol sarmaaya of Sikh Panth.

You haven't seen the sewa and your knowledge about the sewa is very incorrect. Please don't miss guide sangat.

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Guru granth sahib jee that is hand written should be preserved.

Guru Granth Sahib jees printed (ex. sgpc) which are in bad state/condition should be agan bhaet.

I don't think that agan bhet is pakhand at all. Printed materials by machine and purataan saroop written by human are total different things.

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Taranpreet Singh Veer Jee and others,

please look at the following videos and comments from various people for more information:

If you are ever in doubt regarding how urgent and critical this seva is (Pothi restoration Sevaa), just watch the video below.



The saroops in the above video are hardly damaged and Easily repairable. Yet, due to lack of knowledge (or perhaps organised ignorance) this pavittar Gurbani is being burned in the name of "Agan Bhet Seva". Who knows what historical and important Pothi Sahibs and Granths they are also burning?

Alot of the Saroops that have been 'agan bhet' in the video probably had a lot of historical value. Perhaps some of the first saroops to arrive in malaysia, and most of them seem to be Larivaar. Why burn these historical saroops to make way for more new printed ones? why is the mentality of our community like this?

ਖਾਲਸਾ ਜੀਓ ,
ਦਾਸ ਇੰਡੀਆ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੋਇੰਦਵਾਲ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਇਕ ਵਾਰ ਕੁਝ ਸਿੰਘਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਇਸ ਸੇਵਾ ਵਿਚ ਹਾਜਰੀ ਭਰਨ ਗਿਆ |ਜਿਥੇ ਜਾਕੇ ਅਸੀਂ ਇਹ ਨੋਟ ਕੀਤਾ ਕੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਸਾਰੇ ਲੜੀਵਾਰ ਸਰੂਪ ਉਥੇ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ ਹੋਏ ਸਨ |ਦੂਜਾ ਉਥੇ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦੇ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਵੀ ਅਗਨ ਭੇਟ ਲਈ ਪੁਜੇ ਹੋਏ ਸਨ |ਜੋ ਤਥ ਸਾਹਮਣੇਆਏ ਉਹ ਬਹੁਤ ਹੈਰਾਨੀ ਜਨਕ ਸਨ |ਲੜੀਵਾਰ ਸਰੂਪ ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਉਥੇ ਪੂਜ ਰਹੇ ਸਨ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਗੁਰਦਵਾਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬਾਨ ਚ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੀ ਸਿੰਘਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਪੜ੍ਹਨੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦੇ ਇਸ ਲਈ ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਣ ਲਈ ਉਹ ਇਹ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਰਧ ਕਹਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਭੇਜ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ |ਤੇ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਵਿਚ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ ਲਈ ਪੂਜਨੇ ਉਹ ਵੀ ਬਿਲਕੁਲ ਨਵੇਂ ਉਸਦਾ ਕਾਰਣ ਆਪਣੇ ਜਿਆਦਾਤਰ ਲੋਕ ਬਾਹਮਣਾਂ ਜਾਂ ਪੁਛਾਂ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਜਾਂ ਅਖੌਤੀ ਡੇਰੇ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਕੋਲ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਉਹ ਤਾੰਤ੍ਰਿਕ ਬਾਹਮਣ ਜਾਂ ਪੁਛਾਂ ਦੇਣ ਜਾਂ ਅਜਕਲ ਦੇ ਚਿੱਟੇ ਬਗਲੇ ਬਾਬੇ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ਪਾਠ ਕਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਕਹਿ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਉਹ ਲੋਕ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਖਰੀਦ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਪੂਰਾ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਤਾਂ ਵੀ ਠੀਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਇਆ ਤਾਂ ਵੀ ਬਾਅਦ ਚ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਭੇਜ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ |ਜਦੋਂ ਸੰਸਕਾਰ ਸਮੇਂ ਸਿੰਘਾਂ ਨੇ ਇਸਦਾ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਕੀਤਾ ਤਾਂ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਰਿੰਦਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਨੇ ਸਾਡੇ ਵਲ ਇਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਜਿਦਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਬਾਬਰ ਦੀ ਕੁਲ ਚੋਂ ਹੋਈਏ |
ਭੁਲ ਚੂਕ ਮੁਆਫ

Guru granth sahib jee that is hand written should be preserved.

Guru Granth Sahib jees printed (ex. sgpc) which are in bad state/condition should be agan bhaet.

I don't think that agan bhet is pakhand at all. Printed materials by machine and purataan saroop written by human are total different things.

Veer Jee,

Why the double standard?

Are we that lazy that we cannot even make an attempt to restore it regardless of whether it is handwritten or not?

It doesn't matter what the 'printed materials by machine' is.

What matters is what the machine is printing onto the paper.

It's Gurbani at the end of the day, no matter what way you look at it.

Is our Guru just an item now, that we can just go out and buy it, and then get rid of it?

Where is that same dedication or passion that was there when 'getting' Guru Sahib Bir in the first place?

Just because we lose faith or are lazy....or didn't get our wishes fullfilled...or can't read letters joined together....or who knows the reason....doesn't mean that we go and take the easy way by lighting Guru Sahib Bir on fire.

Log Jaanai Eho Geet Hai Eho Tau Brahm Beechaar!!!

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What do you know about the Agan Bhet Sewas being done under the dekh-rekh of Bh. Narinder Singh jee? How can you conclude that Agan Bhet of Hand Written and Stone Stamped Paavan Saroops and Guttka Sahib & Pothi Sahib were done there?

In regards to the Agan Bhet Sewa organized by Bh. Narinder Singh jee, only the modern printed Paavan Saroops or Guttkes are being Agan Bhet unless a Paavan Saroop comes half burnt. No Hand Written and Stone Stamped Paavan Saroops or Guttka Sahib or Pothi Sahib are Agan Bhet. Please see the list of documents below showing how many Paavan Saroops and Guttka Sahib & Pothi Sahib were given to SGPC for the Sevaa Sambhaal. Yes, a lot of times we get the Paavan Saroop that is not Biradh but that doesn’t mean we Agan Bhet that Paavan Saroop. Paavan Saroops are inspected (Darshan) three times prior to concluding Biradh. A lot of Paavan Saroop are fixed (sevaa) at these Sewa places. To date about 9700 Paavan Saroops have been given back to the Sangat that came to these Sevaa places (including Toronto) as Biradh. The Paavan Saroops are given to the Sangat that wanted it and there is a record for each Paavan Saroop.

http://prabhusewasimran.com/documents.html

http://prabhusewasimran.com/newspaper_clippings.html

Please do not make assumptions without knowing the facts.

PS:- Harsh Singh jee’s post has been replied in the forum where it was discussed…

PPS:- Malaysia Sangat should be contacted and informed about this. SGPC need to set a body to ensure that Agan Bhet Sewa is maintained properly.

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I think some people are not aware of differences between manuscripts/hand written saroops, pathar shap saroops and modern printed saroops. They need to make their thinking clear before participating in this debate.Let us not misguide sangat .

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@ Sikh_Toronto Jee...

Unless Paavan Saroop is half burnt?

Even if it was half burnt, but still historically significant...it should be kept.

And also, just because Harsh Singh's eye-witness account was replied to, it doesn't make his eye-witness account untrue.

Secondly to both you and Taranpreet Singh Jee,

just because the Malaysia incident(s) have nothing to do with Bhai Narinder Singh Jee, it doesn't make it right. Instead, it just goes to show how dangerous it is to be promoting these types of activities.

If out of thousands of items...if even one historical item is lost, ..in my opinion, it is a very big loss for Sikh Panth.

And GPS Jee,

I don't know what problem you have with me. From the get-go of the topic you seem to sometimes go towards some other direction.

I know the differences between all of those. Don't try and discredit people's concerns by trying to discredit their knowledge.

Let me give you the numbers....then you tell me how you can support these numbers.....

According to Narinder Singh Jee's organization's own statistics in the year 2000...... (note that Narinder Singh Jee started in 1988)......

For those who don't know....volumes of scripture means Guru Granth Sahib Jee Saroop/Dasam Granth Sahib/Sarbloh Granth Sahib. Prayer books means Gutka Sahib, Pothi and Senchi.....

  • "Approximately 80,000 printed volumes of Scripture were cremated in Ludhiana between 1988 and 2000."
  • "40,000 printed volumes of Scripture were cremated at Goindval Sahib from 1996 to 2000."
  • "It was estimated that 2.5 million prayer books were also burnt."
  • "Today [by 2010] the total number of cremated volumes of the Scripture must exceed (at least) several hundred thousand copies"

^It doesn't matter if it's machine printed or not. Even if every single one of those is modern-day machine printed....you tell me how you can justify those numbers... and those numbers are only during a short period of time...this agan bhet ritual has been going on for 50+ years most likely (at the very least).......maybe not under Narinder Singh Jee the whole time...but it doesn't matter...he's been there for the past 25 years....and look at what he has done.....I can't even imagine what others before him all around the world have done.... you tell me...are you trying to preserve Sikhi..or destroy it?

On top of this, check out the expansion of this ritual.....

  • "...the organization has rapidly expanded its activities to other areas in northern and southern India. By 2004 a third cremation place was constructed at a local Gurdwara in the outskirts of Delhi (Gurdwara Majnu da Talla). In the following years two additional centers were established in the villages Nathwan and Ramgarh Bhullar, in Haryana and Punjab respectively."
  • "In southern India the first fire sacrifice under the guidance of Narinder Singh was carried out in 2007 at Gurdwara Barambala Sahib in Hyderabad. The following year (2008) the congregation in Hyderabad constructed a cremation chamber and arranged a second ceremony which scriptures and prayer books collected from Sikh in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala, Maharashtra, and Tamil Nadu were consigned to fire."

Seems very suspicious to me. Around the same time when the missionaries start their major campaigns into these areas which are full of hidden gems....there is a great rush to introduce cremation services.

Just a coincidence?......

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Come on Dasamgranth ji

Have you read that owner of sikh pulwari, a missionary person, sold puratan gutkas to a kabria ( scrap collector) and eventully

they ened up on grbage heap used as envelops.

Is it not better that birdh gutkas are agan bhet instead.

You were giving reference of manuscripts are being agan bhet and it is imperative such misleading news is corrected.No one is agan bhet manuscripts. What is wrong to correct that perception?

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I personally like the tradition of writing Gurbani. Printing has just created a surplus amount of sroops and pothis that people don't take care of and They end up being agan bhet as a result. I would like to see the lost tradition of writing Gurbani revived.

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Does anyone know what Gurmukhs have said on this topic. Can recordings and/or videos be posted. Nothing will be solved by yelling at each other. I see there are genuine people on both sides of the discussion. When both sides are deadlocked it best to ask a Gurmukh on what should be done.

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