Relation Between Atma And Parmatma

[navsangeet]

sangat ji,

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!

i am puzzled, i know we should not focus on defining parmatma because we can't. but i wan't to know what relation exists between atma and parmatma?

is he the husband and the soul is the bride, or is he the father and the soul is the child, or is he the friend or is he the malak and soul is the daas.

i need it because when i do simran how should i remember him as...please enlighten me....gurbani tuks would be a great help....

[MKaur89]

sangat ji,

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!

i am puzzled, i know we should not focus on defining parmatma because we can't. but i wan't to know what relation exists between atma and parmatma?

is he the husband and the soul is the bride, or is he the father and the soul is the child, or is he the friend or is he the malak and soul is the daas.

i need it because when i do simran how should i remember him as...please enlighten me....gurbani tuks would be a great help....

This is a very interesting question, I have always wondered this too. As far as I understand, the atma originates from parmatma and one day hopes to break free from the cycle of birth and death by achieving union with parmatma.

But I am not sure about the exact relation that exists either, hopefully some other people will have more information that they can share.

[N30S1NGH]

There is no difference between atma and paratma in essence. However, it appears different, when one associate themselves with body, egoistic mind, individuality. Rise above from body, egoistic mind and individuality by surrendering your body,mind, ego to satguru ji and do naam simran and self inquiry (associate one with real self only) and slowly one will realize their daulity is destroyed and there is no difference. We all one day or one life time under hakum of akaal purkh/guru maharaj kirpa, all of us will go back to our source where we came from and merge with paratma .

[navsangeet]

but veer, the duality would only go away when he himself wants it to...til than thinking that there is no difference in my soul and parmatma would be pretence...

the reason i asked the question is because i found anand in relating to Him, it would make the relation personal, then every time i hear His name or about Him in any shabad, i would

listen with pyaar....

[jasdeepsingh2k125]

but veer, the duality would only go away when he himself wants it to...til than thinking that there is no difference in my soul and parmatma would be pretence...

the reason i asked the question is because i found anand in relating to Him, it would make the relation personal, then every time i hear His name or about Him in any shabad, i would

listen with pyaar....

bhenji , daas feels that its like we can relate to god as any thing which suits us.......like a lonely folk can think god as his/her friend,a widow can treat him as a husband,an orphan as his parent,because god is everything whole of the universe is god himself sabh gobind hai..... guru sahib ji blesses us tu mera pita,tu hai mera mata

tu mera bhantab,tu mera brata

so how u like u can think..there is no bounds :smile2: :smile2: ... in sri jaap sahib ji maharaj salutes everything,bcoz god is everything...............

so how we relate is upto us but main thing is do do simran for it salute to u....though this is just daas tuchi budhi

[Raaj.Karega.Khalsa]

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਆਗ ਤੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਆਗ ਉਠੈ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਫੇਰਿ ਆਗ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

jaisae eaek aag thae kanookaa kott aag out(h)ae niaarae niaarae hue kai faer aag mai milaahi(n)agae ||
As from a big fire, millions of sparks of fire arise, they get scattered and again they merge in the same fire.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਤੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਪੂਰਤ ਹੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਕੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਫੇਰ ਧੂਰਿ ਹੀ ਸਮਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

jaisae eaek dhhoor thae anaek dhhoor poorath hai dhhoor kae kanookaa faer dhhoor hee samaahi(n)agae ||

As from a heap that consists of myriads of dust particles, those dust bits disperse and arise above and then those dust particles merge in the same dust.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਨਦ ਤੇ ਤੰਰਗ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਜਤ ਹੈਂ ਪਾਨਿ ਕੇ ਤਰੰਗ ਸਬੈ ਪਾਨਿ ਹੀ ਕਹਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

jaisae eaek nadh thae tha(n)rag kott oupajath hai paan kae tha(n)rag sabai paan heekehaahi(n)agae ||

As from a river millions of waves of water are produced and these watery waves merge with water and will still be called as water.

qYsy ibs rup qy ABUq BUq pRgt huie qwhI qy aupj sbY qwhI mY smwihNgy ] 17]87]

thaisae bis rup thae abhooth bhooth pragatt hue thaahee thae oupaj sabai thaaheemai samaahi(n)agae || 17||87||

As both the animate (sentient beings) and inanimate (non-sentient objects) are manifested from the Universal Lord. They arise from Him and shall merge again in their primal source.(17)(87)

The above quote from Sri Akal Ustat (Dasam Bani - 48) explains how 'Aatma' is a part of the 'Param-aatma'.

The soul, as compared to God, is like a drop compared to the ocean.The drop, and the ocean, are both water. In the same manner, the soul and God are the same.

When one remembers Sri Akaal Purakh ji whilst simran, it's very difficult to confine him into particular roles. With Maharaaj ji's kirpa, Sri Akaal Ustat explains in an extremely vast way about how Akaal Purakh ji is prevading the the universe and the world we live in.

Above all of it, He is actually our real self. And it can be very hard to imagine it whilst doing simran if one hasn't yet had the 'darshan' of the real self.

In my humble opinion, the easiest way of remembering Him whilst simran would be the Guru's role He's playing for us! To plead to Him, the Guru, to show us the real self, to show us the right path, to help us across the way, ....all of it can only be done by the Guru.

And we sikhs are utmost blessed that Sri Waheguru ji is our Guru Himself! What else can one want!

qUM myrw ipqw qUMhY myrw mwqw ]

thoo(n) maeraa pithaa thoo(n)hai maeraa maathaa ||

You are my Father, and You are my Mother.

qUM myrw bMDpu qUM myrw BRwqw ]

thoo(n) maeraa ba(n)dhhap thoo(n) maeraa bhraathaa ||

You are my Relative, and You are my Brother.

qUM myrw rwKw sBnI QweI qw Bau kyhw kwVw jIau ]1]

thoo(n) maeraa raakhaa sabhanee thhaaee thaa bho kaehaa kaarraa jeeo ||1||

You are my Protector everywhere; why should I feel any fear or anxiety? ||1||

[N30S1NGH]

but veer, the duality would only go away when he himself wants it to...til than thinking that there is no difference in my soul and parmatma would be pretence...

the reason i asked the question is because i found anand in relating to Him, it would make the relation personal, then every time i hear His name or about Him in any shabad, i would

listen with pyaar....

It's not pretence as its reality, it depends on person faith or nicha on naam simran and gurbani updesh of self enquiry and person faith and nicha comes with prem for satguru to the point where one is ready to surrender their body, mind and ego to satguru and follow satgur updesh of start doing simran and self inquiry (Man tu jot saroop hai apna mool painchain). Satguru has already provided first portion of grace to all of us in form of bibek and Satguru has already shown the path in gurbani to us and but it is us who have to walk the path..for most part-one cannot expect kirpa to happen when they are waiting and not walking the path (actually working towards it).

[DSGj]

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥

Dhanaasaree, First Mehl:

ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥

If the Lord bestows His Glance of Grace, then one remembers Him in meditation.

ਆਤਮਾ ਦ੍ਰਵੈ ਰਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥

The soul is softened, and he remains absorbed in the Lord's Love.

ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਏਕੋ ਕਰੈ ॥

His soul and the Supreme Soul become one.

ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥

The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1||

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥

By Guru's Grace, God is found.

ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

One's consciousness is attached to the Lord, and so Death does not devour him. ||1||Pause||

ਸਚਿ ਸਿਮਰਿਐ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥

Remembering the True Lord in meditation, one is enlightened.

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਰਹੈ ਉਦਾਸੁ ॥

Then, in the midst of Maya, he remains detached.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਐਸੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥

Such is the Glory of the True Guru;

ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਚੇ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥

in the midst of children and spouses, they attain emancipation. ||2||

ਐਸੀ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੈ ॥

Such is the service which the Lord's servant performs,

ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੈ ॥

that he dedicates his soul to the Lord, to whom it belongs.

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

One who is pleasing to the Lord and Master is acceptable.

ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵੈ ਮਾਣੁ ॥੩॥

Such a servant obtains honor in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਾਏ ॥

He enshrines the image of the True Guru in his heart.

ਜੋ ਇਛੈ ਸੋਈ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ॥

He obtains the rewards which he desires.

ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੈ ॥

The True Lord and Master grants His Grace;

ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਕੈਸਾ ਡਰੈ ॥੪॥

how can such a servant be afraid of death? ||4||

ਭਨਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

Prays Nanak, practice contemplation,

ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਿਉ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥

and enshrine love for the True Word of His Bani.

ਤਾ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥

Then, you shall find the Gate of Salvation.

ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਇਹੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੫॥੨॥੪॥

This Shabad is the most excellent of all chanting and austere meditations. ||5||2||4||

ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Gond, Fifth Mehl:

ਅਚਰਜ ਕਥਾ ਮਹਾ ਅਨੂਪ ॥

Wondrous and beautiful is the description,

ਪ੍ਰਾਤਮਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਰੂਪੁ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

of the beauty of the Supreme Soul, the Supreme Lord God. ||Pause||

ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬੂਢਾ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬਾਲਾ ॥

He is not old; He is not young.

ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਮ ਜਾਲਾ ॥

He is not in pain; He is not caught in Death's noose.

ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥

He does not die; He does not go away.

ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥

In the beginning, and throughout the ages, He is permeating everywhere. ||1||

ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਉਸਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਸੀਤੁ ॥

He is not hot; He is not cold.

ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਦੁਸਮਨੁ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ॥

He has no enemy; He has no friend.

ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਹਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਸੋਗੁ ॥

He is not happy; He is not sad.

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਇਹੁ ਕਰਨੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥

Everything belongs to Him; He can do anything. ||2||

ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਬਾਪੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥

He has no father; He has no mother.

ਇਹੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਹੋਤਾ ਆਇਆ ॥

He is beyond the beyond, and has always been so.

ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਕਾ ਇਸੁ ਲੇਪੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥

He is not affected by virtue or vice.

ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਜਾਗੈ ॥੩॥

Deep within each and every heart, He is always awake and aware. ||3||

ਤੀਨਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਇਕ ਸਕਤਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

From the three qualities, the one mechanism of Maya was produced.

ਮਹਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਹੈ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ The great Maya is only His shadow.

ਅਛਲ ਅਛੇਦ ਅਭੇਦ ਦਇਆਲ ॥

He is undeceivable, impenetrable, unfathomable and merciful.

ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਸਦਾ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥

He is merciful to the meek, forever compassionate.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥

His state and limits cannot ever be known.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੨੧॥

Nanak is a sacrifice, a sacrifice to Him. ||4||19||21||

ਤ੍ਵ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

BY THY GRACE

ਦਿਨ ਅਜਬ ਏਕ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਅਨਭਉ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਹਦ ਅਕਾਮ ॥

On a day the curious soul (asked): The infinite and Desire less Lord, the Intuitive Entity.

ਅਨਛਿੱਜ ਤੇਜ ਆਜਾਨ ਬਾਹੁ ॥ ਰਾਜਾਨ ਰਾਜੁ ਸਾਹਾਨ ਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥੧੨੬॥

Of everlasting Glory and long-armed; the King of kings and Emperor of emperors.1.126.

ਉਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥

The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible;

ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥

What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127.

ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥

The Higher Soul said:

ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥

This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless.

ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥

Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228.

ਡੋਬਿਓ ਨ ਡੁਬੈ ਸੋਖਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਟਿਓ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਨ ਬਾਰਿਯੋ ਬਰਾਇ ॥

It is neither drowned nor soaked; It can neither be chopped nor burnt.

ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਸਤ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਤ ਪਾਤ ॥੪॥੧੨੯॥

It cannot be assailed by the blow of weapon; It hath neither an enemy nor a friend, neither caste not lineage.4.129.

ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਹੰਸ ਸਤ ਸਤ ਪ੍ਰਘਾਇ ॥ ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਖੰਡਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

By the blow of thousands of enemies, It is neither wasted away nor fragmented.

ਨਹੀ ਜਰੈ ਨੈਕ ਪਾਵਕ ਮੰਝਾਰ ॥ ਬੋਰੈ ਨ ਸਿੰਧ ਸੋਖੈ ਨ ਬਯਾਰ ॥੫॥੧੩੦॥

It is not burnt even in the fire. It is neither drowned in the sea nor soaked by the air.5.130.

ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਮੀਤ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਪੁਰਖੋਤਮ ਪੂਰਾ ।

ਪੋਖਨਹਾਰਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਨ ਊਰਾ ।

ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਪਤਿ ਸਦ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਾ ।

ਵਾਹ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਓ ਪੁਰਖ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸੂਰਾ ।

ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਜੀਅ ਜਪਿ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੀ ਵੇਲਾ ।

ਵਾਹ ਵਾਹ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ ੧੪ ॥

The life patron of Puranas, is the perfect Supreme Soul.

Har, the Sustaining Lord, is not deficient in protection.

Hail! Manifested is the Supreme Being in the countenance of gallant Guru Gobind Singh,

Who is spectacular, and with his marvels, profusely he is Satguru, the True Lord.

Remember day and night, the virtues of Har who, at the times honest, endows truth.

Hail, hail (Guru) Gobind Singh; He, Himself, is the Master and the Disciple too. | 14 |

Also check out this Shabad...

http://sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID=B&PageNo=&ShabadID=6463&Format=2

paarabreham pooran purakh paramaesur dhaathaa||

pathith paavan paramaathamaa sarab a(n)thir jaathaa||

har dhaanaa beenaa baesumaar baea(n)th bidhhaathaa||

banavaaree bakhasi(n)dh aap aapae pithaa maathaa||

eih maanas janam amol hai milanae kee vaelaa||

vaah vaah gobi(n)dh si(n)gh aapae gur chaelaa ||11||

[navsangeet]

thanks everyone for your replies...it helped..

[puneetkaur]

A small query again ji, could anyone please explain what is the real self?

thank you