Historical Sikh Population Records From 1800S (Tangent Topic: When Did Your Family Become Sikhs)

[LegalSingh]

your theory falls flat because areas such as Jalandhar and Hoshiarpur which were a part of the Lahore state had more Hindus Jats than Sikh Jats. This was also the case with Sialkot and Gujranwala districs. If your theory was correct then in Gujranwala most of the Hindu Jats would have been Sikhs because Gujranwala had been the base of the forefathers of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and there would have been a great urge among the HIndu Jats to become Sikh being from the same area as the Maharaja. The Gujranwala district also witnessed a great deal of turmoil because of the wars between the forefathers of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the Muslim tribes, Exactly the type of situation which if your analysis was correct would have led to a large number of Hindu Jats becoming Sikhs.

Please show me which census shows the majority of "jatts' in Lahore and Gujranwala were Hindus. Sure, as everyone knows, those districts always had more Hindus than Sikhs, but can you tell me how you've concluded that those Hindus were jatts rather than arora or khatri for those areas were the traditional heartlands of those 2 latter groups.

[proactive]

Excluding Hoshiarpur, which as I explained earlier has always been a bit of an anomily in terms of demographics and geography, the jatts of Jalandhar district have been Sikhs since the 6th Guru's time but doaba as a whole has always been minority jatt. It is the heartland of the ravidassias and they, and other groups, have always been larger in numbers compared to malwa and majha where the jatts are easily the majority. Thus, given doaba's non-sikh face, it is not surprising that the sikh population has always been lower in doaba. However in the case of the just the jatts, the opposite is true.

In 1881, in Jalandhar the Sikhs Jats were 56,407 compared to 87,262 Hindu Jats. Even in Kapurthala State which I am sure you will agree does not have the same physiology as Hoshiarpur and was a protected state within the Lahore state, had 12,020 Sikh Jats compared to 16,245 Hindu Jats.

Due to the parchar work of the Singh Sabha, in Jalandhar there were only 12,754 Hindu Jats compared to 160,286 Sikh Jats in 1931. The figures for Kapurthala state were 35,757 Sikh Jats and 1,148 Hindu Jats in 1931.

The only reason I can deduce is that the Jats who were more adventurous and who were ambitious to stake a claim to the land were more likely to become Sikhs and join the Misl bands and the ones that did not have this mentality remained Hindus until the Singh Sabha came along.

[proactive]

Please show me which census shows the majority of "jatts' in Lahore and Gujranwala were Hindus. Sure, as everyone knows, those districts always had more Hindus than Sikhs, but can you tell me how you've concluded that those Hindus were jatts rather than arora or khatri for those areas were the traditional heartlands of those 2 latter groups.

I did not write anything about Lahore district or even Amritsar for that matter. One being the religious capital and the other being the political capital of the Sikh state, then the Jats would obviously have been more inclined to be Sikh than Hindu. Also given that a majority of the Misldars also came from these districts, this would have given another impetus to the Jats becoming Sikh.

The census of 1881 states that there were 23,373 Hindu Jats compared to 16,849 Sikh Jats in Gujranwala district. By 1931 this had changed to 35,339 Sikh Jats and 2,299 Hindu Jats. Between 1881 and 1931 a part of the Gujranwala district was split into Sheikhupura district where Sikh Jats were 41,181 and Hindu Jats 857 in 1931.

The case of Gujranwala is interesting because the likelihood of who was a Sikh or Hindu Jat prior to the Singh Sabha depended mostly on which got that person belonged to. The Virks, Manns, Sidhu and Sandhu were more likely to be Sikh and the Varaich, Cheema and Chatha were more likely to be Hindu than Sikh. The Virks and Manns had had Misldars who were from their got and who retained some of their estates after the annexation.

[harj1ts1ngh]

Legal Singh,

How else would the Sikh percentage of Punjabi's triple from 5% at the end of 18th century to 15% of all Punjabi's in the 21st?

If it wasn't for Hindu and Muslims turning to Sikhi? Assuming Muslims, Sikhs and Hindu had equal rates of birth until 1947.

[esingh]

From a Jatt clan and have been Sikhs from Guru Hargobind Jee's time.

[proactive]

Excluding Hoshiarpur, which as I explained earlier has always been a bit of an anomily in terms of demographics and geography, the jatts of Jalandhar district have been Sikhs since the 6th Guru's time but doaba as a whole has always been minority jatt. It is the heartland of the ravidassias and they, and other groups, have always been larger in numbers compared to malwa and majha where the jatts are easily the majority. Thus, given doaba's non-sikh face, it is not surprising that the sikh population has always been lower in doaba. However in the case of the just the jatts, the opposite is true.

The reason why Jalandhar is a Sikh minority district has to do with many factors. If you compare Jalandhar with Ludhiana by taking away the entire population of Muslims, then the Sikhs Jats become 36.68 % of the remaining population of Jalandhar and 40.38% of the remaining population of Ludhiana. So the percentage of Sikh Jats in both districts were very similar. If you then take the population of so-called lower castes like Chamar it is clear that there Chamars were about 20% of the population of Jalandhar while they were only about 10% of the population of Ludhiana. This still would not have had a great effect on why Jalandhar became a Sikh minority district. The true reason was that whereas Sikh Chamars were only 5% of the Chamar population of Jalandhar, Sikh Chamars in Ludhiana were 63% of the Chamar population.

Interestingly enough Jalandhar became a Sikh majority district ( 56.4%) by the time of the 1951 census due to the resettlement of Sikh refugees in the district after partition. However, due to the migration of Sikhs to the west and also into Terai region of UP and because a large number of so-called lower castes declared themselves to be Hindus in order to avail themselves of reservation, which until 1956 was only available to Hindu lower castes, the Sikhs became a minority of 44.8% in 1961.

[LegalSingh]

This still would not have had a great effect on why Jalandhar became a Sikh minority district. The true reason was that whereas Sikh Chamars were only 5% of the Chamar population of Jalandhar, Sikh Chamars in Ludhiana were 63% of the Chamar population.

Its never as simple as that. Just like any other groups in any other country around the world are divided by geography, the same is true for the 'scheduled castes' of doaba. Its always been the case that the 'scheduled caste' in doaba were the chamars and the scheduled caste in malwa (Ludhiana) were churhe. The 2 groups hate each other with a passion and each look down on the other. Since the beginning of Sikhism the chamars have always mostly kept their distance from Sikhism proper and adhered to their own seperate ad dharmi faith. The churhe, on the other hand, embraced en masse either Christianity or Sikhism. When they became Sikh they have always been the best Sikhs there are, provining themselves in war and spirituality. They've alwats been the best proper Sikhs ; Mazabhi Sikhs.

Anyway, cut along story short, I think you're confusing the churhe mazabhi Sikhs of malwa with the chamars of doaba.

To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of the 1881 census. Its full of anomilies. For example, many of those listed as jatts were, in the next census of 1891, not included in the jatt category at all. Also, the 1881 described how 66% of all Sikhs were jatt and at the same time says half the jatts in Punjab were Hindu. If thats the case then surely the 1931 census after all the supposed 'hindu' jatts dissapeared and became Sikhs, the jatt proportion of Sikhs should have increased to a figure in the 90 per cents. Instead it stayed near 66%. Something somehwere just don't add up.

But I'm not knocking it. The legend in my village is that our clan became Sikhs when Guru Arjan Dev came down to our doaba area to get married. Most others say it was during Guru Hargobind's time. I can't claim the same for every jatt clan out there so who am I to argue with the census.

[proactive]

I know the difference between Chuhras and Chamars, thank you very much. You are probably not aware that about Chuhras about 24,000 out of 40,000 claimed Ad Dharmi as their religion, that's 60% of Chuhras in Jalandhar. Your claim that Ad Dharam was a Chamar faith is clearly wrong. The chief movers were Chamars but the Chuhras of Jalandhar also responded to it in a big way, as did those in Lyallpur district who gone over as the laagis of the Jat colonists from Doaba. There were large numbers of Chuhras in Doaba as well and it wasn't as simple as you seem to believe that lower castes were Chamars in Doaba and Chuhras in Malwa. This is however the case with regard to Doaba and Majha. Majha had very few Chamars but large numbers of Chuhras. You are right that Chuhras for the most part when they became Sikhs, they were ardent Sikhs.

The simple fact is that in Malwa for whatever reason, the Chamars and Chuhras were much more likely to be Sikhs than Hindus or Ad Dharmis. This was the case whether it was in the British districts like Ludhiana or in Patiala, Nabha or Faridkot states.

The information I have given is from the Census reports of 1931.

[Jonny101]

I agree with Proactive Jee,

Many people think that Jatt Sikhs have been Sikhs since either the Guru period or 1700s. This is a huge misconception. Some Jatts became Sikhs, but there were still significant numbers of Hindu Jatts still remaining in Punjab before Singh Sabha movement. During the 1700s, after great sacrifice and determination when Khalsa was finally blessed with Raaj over Punjab, Sikhs were only about 5% of the entire population of Punjab. During the Raaj of Lahore Durbar, Sikh population grew as more people became Sikhs. But after the fall of the Sikh Raaj, many Sikhs(belonging to all castes) who had just recently become Sikhs had reverted back to Hinduism. Demographically, Sikhi was in the decline when the Panth got together at Sri Darbar Sahib and did ardas to Guru Jee to do kirpa on the Panth. It is said that the result of this ardas, a white light orb entered Sri Darbar Sahib and stopped infront of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and then it vanished. This miracle occurred infront of hundreds of people who saw this. The resulting Singh Sabha movement was successful because Guru Jee did kirpa on the Panth and saved it. I am proud that my family had become Sikhs of the Guru because of this miracle. The Sikh population share in Punjab almost tripled within a short time period. While other religions spread through the sword or by bribery(laalach), Sikhi was spread by Parchaar in the true sense.

[isingh1699]

I think we should forget the past and look to the future.

If the legacy of Aurangzeb + the Islamic Empire's brutality means two thirds of Punjabi's nowadays are proud to be Muslim, then we should be able to do a better job than Aurangzeb as we are not killing people but liberating them from immoral lies which directly result in extreme misery to the lives of innocent human beings.

I think the time has come to stop this racist attitude held by too many that a person born a Hindu, should stay a Hindu and just be good at being Hindu and focus on praying to idols. And that a person believing in Nazism, should remain a Nazi and just concentrate on being a good Nazi and focus on copying Hitler as a role model.

The same kind of advice to Al-Qaeda and George W.Bush has resulted in so much suffering throughout the world.

If more people conned into the Abrahamic + Hindutva philosophies could understand and agree with Sarbath Da Bhalla as an ideology in this generation or century it would bring peace, prosperity and happiness globally.