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Historical Sikh Population Records From 1800S (Tangent Topic: When Did Your Family Become Sikhs)


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I can see your point, but what we need to also consider is that at some stage to be considered Sikhs, the father or grandfather of these mona Jat Sikhs from 1881-1901 would have had to have undergone a formal conversion to Sikhism..ie the Pahul. It is unlikely that an Amritdhari parent would then not make their sons and grandsons Amritdhari in turn. Although quite common now with the lack of parchar but it would have been very unusual and certainly something that the census would have mentioned in those days. Although I think the Punjab Administration report for a few years after annexation does mention that sons of Sikh fathers are less likely to come to Amritsar and take Amrit, but this seems to have been in small instances but for it to have been so bad as to have turned over half the Sikh Jats into Hindus, it would have meant that 50% of Sikh fathers were not taking their sons to take Amrit. This is highly unlikely.

I do remember reading many years ago that Sikh Jats would marry their sons off to the daughters of Hindu Jats but would only give daughters in marriage provided the bridegroom became a Sikh..ie became a Keshadhari. If this happened to a large scale then it would take only a few generations for the Hindu Jats to disappear.

My parents and grandparents also tell me they never were aware of ANY jatts who lived in what is now the Indian state of Punjab who were Hindu rather than Sikh.

I think it does depend to a large degree which area your parents and grandparents are from. As I wrote in one of the earlier posts, the 50% Hindu Jats were not uniformly distributed. My parents told me that in our area, the Jagraon Tehsil of Ludhiana district the only Hindus they ever came across were shopkeepers who were of the Khatri caste. The only Khatri Sikhs at that time were from Lahore and the Rawalpindi area. They also said that after partition when a large number of Khatri Sikhs moved into the smaller towns of East Punjab, the East Punjab Sikh Jats were quite surprised to realise that Khatris could also be Sikhs! So your parents could also be from an area where the Sikh Jats were predominate. In Ludhiana District, it was the Samrala tehsil that Hindu Jats were enumerated in large numbers.

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Based on discussions I've had with my parents and grandparents, it does seem that mona jatt sikhs were almost non-existent in the 20-30 years prior to the partition. Beard-trimming was common even back then, but it was virtually unheard of to see an adult jatt sikh male without a turban and facial hair.

Yeah, I think this is true. Some elders in my family didn't know much about Sikhi, but they kept their hair and never cut it.

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so how many muslims converted to Sikhism? I have a feeling my ancestors were definitely muslims lol

Well that's something to be very proud that your ancestors were Muslims as of course Bhai Mardana Ji was the very first Sikh in our Panth. In Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Sangat 50% of the original Gursikhs were born to Muslim parents. The more Sikhi was considered a threat by the Islamic Empire of the Mughals more and more difficulty was placed in the way of Muslims wishing to join the Sikh Panth. Not least the punishment for apostasy in Islam. As Prophet Muhammad decreed that whoever dared to reject Muhammad's personal ideology should be put to death.

And thousands upon thousands of brave ex-Muslims that became Sikh were killed for leaving Islam. By the time of Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj's shaheedi the Islamic Empire of the Mughals was openly killing down Sikhs and apostates from Islam were often among the first Sikhs to be brutally killed and subsequently generation by generation the Sikh Panth began to be comprised more of converts from Hinduism then Islam.

Sources say that sadly only 1 in 8 of the converts from Maharajah Ranjit Singh's time until 1947 were Muslim, while seven in eight were of Hindu ancestry. In that period between Maharajah Ranjit Singh's leadership of Punjab and 1947 the Muslim Jatts, Muslim Rajputs, Muslim Gujjars, Muslim Arain/Kambohs and Muslim Khatri's remained quite loyal to Islam and generally Muslims who became Sikh were from non-Saka tribal ancestries. Sadly since 1947 there have been even fewer converts to Sikhi from Islam the most famous of whom are probably Bhai Gurmohinder Singh Ji, Kuldip Manak and in the 1980's Shaheed Lakshman Singh Babbar.

Given that there are more than 500million Muslims in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh the SGPC should spend a bit of money translating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji into Shahmukhi Punjabi script, Urdu, and Bengali at the very least. Once Muslims realise that Sikhi is all about 100% devotion to Allah and none other (just not slaveowners like Muhammad) a small minority of certain open-minded people born to Muslim parents will naturally come towards Sikhi - particularly women as Sikhi offers 100% gender equality whereas Islam discriminates and oppresses women. We can't stick to the old routine of not criticising the personal life and failings of slaveowners such as Prophet Muhammad online for fear of offending Muslims if the consequence is that innocent people with true faith in one God are left trapped within Islam. We need to encourage them towards Sikhi as the more people helping the Panth achieve the objective of a just and peaceful society the closer it will come to reality. If people are racistly told that they must remain in the religions they are born into all we can expect is more genocides, more bombs killing innocent victims, more grooming targetting innocent children + more terrorism against the innocent.

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  1. What do you mean by 25% of Sikhs?
  2. Any source of your claim? I am interested to read. Is there any source of how many sikhs were there in the world in 1947 etc?
  3. Yeah...Sikhs converting to Christianity is a big problem for Sikh community....
  4. Strengthening the family-values and producing babies....

1. Yes Uggi wale Veer a horrific 25% of Sikhs in Pakistan were killed in 1947. The other 75% were ethnically cleansed out of Pakistan. It should be added that Sikhs will never condone the suffering of innocent Muslims from Uggi pind in Jalandhar district or any other village being treated badly in the mayhem of 1947 when the Muslims League wanted to again eradicate the Sikh Qaum.

However, those that actively demanded and voted for Pakistan (which left Sikhs as the main losers - as some often refer to us as) should rightly have been free to go to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan founded by a pork-eating, wine-swilling scoundrel like that Muslim Rajput called Jinnah and his sidekick the Punjabi Muslim Brahmin Iqbal.

2. Multiple sources. As you know academic research generally ranges from between 750,000 to 1.5million innocent deaths as a result of the Muslim demand for Pakistan and Partition and the Muslim League's employment of terrorist jihad tactics in order to achieve that objective and an ethnically cleansed state only for the supposed "master race" (=Ummah as described in the Quran). Around a million and half Sikhs lived in Pakistan in 1947. Given that it's widely acknowledged that at least 25-35% of the victims of partition were Sikh despite our percentage of the Punjabi population being more like 13% then it's clear the Sikh Panth suffered the horrific Genocide of around 25% of our people in Pakistan. Of course the 1947 Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs was not anywhere near as bad as earlier holocausts in which 50% and more of the Sikh Panth was killed off by Muslims. But victims of genocide are all equal and any honest Sikh will always condemn the suffering of innocent Muslims from Uggi or elsewhere in Punjab in 1947. Sadly when the Muslim League fanatics attacked Sikhs with a view to ethnically cleansing us out of Mahja, Malwa and Doaba as had been effectively achieved on the other side of the partition-designated border line they miscalculated and underestimated Sikhs. Even though Punjabi Muslims were more numerous than Sikhs in many areas like Amritsar, in a one on one situation (or a fair battle) Sikhs never retreat, Sikhs never surrender and Sikhs never come out as losers (should weaponry on both sides be equal).

3. True. American Christian missionaries bribing poor Sikhs to convert for financial gain is despicable. Luckily local Punjabi Muslims who stayed behind after 1947 - notably in the example of Malerkotla where Muslims are a majority - have enough knowledge of Sikhi to know that no significant numbers of normal Sikhs (who are not under severe financial pressure) will ever convert out of Sikhi given the ideology of Muhammad that Islam represents. All Abrahamic cults are dangerous but i agree with you in East Punjab, Sikhs should be most wary of American missionaries and to a lesser Wahhabist infiltrators.

4. Whilst you are correct on that, in isolation that will achieve nothing for Sikhs. Sikhs already have the lowest population growth rates in India because Sikhs are the richest community out of Hindu's, Sikhs, Muslims and Christians. Also East Punjab has a very high population density meaning there is an upper limit to population growth there. The Sikh community will only grow primarily from decent people whose parents are non-Sikh, who have faith in one God and want to see a society of justice, peace and brotherhood joining it. Fundamentally, there's nothing disqualifying you as our Punjabi veer from following in the esteemed footsteps of Bhai Mardana Ji but even if you don't all of the Sangat here will wish you a blessed Ramadan very soon.

You know what I strongly and openly oppose but it's never personal against you as we all realise how difficult it must be for a person (who personally might oppose slavery or pedophilia) to become an apostate from Islam.

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Interesting.

E.Punjab has more population density than our side of Punjab..I guess it is b/c of the fact that Indian Punjab was divided further into three pieces. As you divide a land, population density becomes larger...

Indian Punjab's population density in 550 person per sq. kilometer...which isn't that much. With proper infrastructure...Indian Punjab can hold many more people..

Once human civilization finds a way to develop an ecosystem in deserts that can sustain human populations, many of our current problems will be solved.

Significant part of Arabia and North Africa is desert....Arabs must invest in heavily is research of advancing agriculture in deserts, using sea water for growing food in desert and so on..if this is successful...then Arabia can become one of the main population centers of the planet and current number of 300 million Arabs can go upto nearly 1 billion Arabs!

Rich Arab states like Qatar are already running pilot projects of creating an ecosystem in desert capable of sustaining vegetation and human population...

These projects, technologies, and inventions etc can really help Islamic World, India, Sikhs etc.

By 2030, Islamic World would be holding 2 billion+ Muslims Inshallah...making use of desert will immensely help us too in increasing our numbers globally after 2030...

Problem isn't infrastructure, Sikh Punjab is mostly farming; sikhs have only increased from 15 % to 20% in urban areas since 47. Farming is becoming less viable due to government policies like not letting Sikhs sell crops out of state, which are some of main issues pertaining to independence of Sikh nation. Only reason land hasn't been further subdivided is because of murder of generation born during 70s by Indian gov. 10-20 years after that.

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1. E.Punjab has more population density than our side of Punjab..I guess it is b/c of the fact that Indian Punjab was divided further into three pieces. As you divide a land, population density becomes larger...

2. Indian Punjab's population density in 550 person per sq. kilometer...which isn't that much. With proper infrastructure...Indian Punjab can hold many more people..

3. Once human civilization finds a way to develop an ecosystem in deserts that can sustain human populations, many of our current problems will be solved.

4. Significant part of Arabia and North Africa is desert....Arabs must invest in heavily is research of advancing agriculture in deserts, using sea water for growing food in desert and so on..if this is successful...then Arabia can become one of the main population centers of the planet and current number of 300 million Arabs can go upto nearly 1 billion Arabs!

By 2030, Islamic World would be holding 2 billion+ Muslims Inshallah...making use of desert will immensely help us too in increasing our numbers globally after 2030...

1. Yes Pakistani Punjab is more than four times bigger than East Punjab and has closer to a 100million people now whereas East Punjab has around 30% of the population size of Pakistani Punjab.

2. Yes, theoretically if the population density of East Punjab was the same as city like Macau then East Punjab could hold 1 billion people as one 50,000 sq/km metropolis. Then again if all buildings were tall like the Burj Khalifa or underground cities were built even more fanciful population projections can be made (without taking them too seriously). But fundamentally Sikhi is not a Punjabi phenomenon to be trapped within a couple of districts of East Punjab. It is a global faith with modern values which most of humankind agree with (if only they knew). So it's not about how we build our population in a tiny pocket of the original area covered by Khalsa Raj. It's about how the Sikh Panth has greater numbers from all different backgrounds in order to bring peace, brotherhood and spiritual happiness to the World. In that respect, my question to fellow Sikhs was how do we do that but my question to you as a proud Muslim is how can Sikhs reach out to fellow monotheists so that they join the Sikh Panth? Or are the Madrassa indoctrination programs so intense that we'd be wasting our time doing any parchaar (dawah) to Muslims? Bhai Mardana Ji the first Sikh bravely became Sikh despite the threat to his own life but with 500 million Muslims on our doorstep what is it about Sikhi that fundamentally makes many Muslims shy away from Sikhi even though it is a monotheistic faith based on logical truth especially when compared to Prophet Muhammad's claims? Or is this fear of leaving Islam purely + squarely controlled by Prophet Muhammad's decreed punishment (death) for brave ex-Muslim apostates?

3. Agreed

4. The prospect of Wahhabist numbers increasing in tandem with the Arab population is not appealing to non-Muslims ... so please can you advise how can monotheists like Sikhs remove jahilya-like ideologies which are popular with Salafist Arabs today and replace those discriminatory ideologies whch condone Slavery and Pedophilia with the slogan of Sarbath Da Bhalla (May God bless all humanity). That way even if there were 2 billion Arabs by 2050 a significant minority them would be Sikh, with others as Atheist, Muslims, Buddhists etc in a utopian world where most Arabs no longer associate themselves with the ideology of one Qureshi Slaveowner from Mecca around 14 centuries ago.

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Problem isn't infrastructure, Sikh Punjab is mostly farming; sikhs have only increased from 15 % to 20% in urban areas since 47. Farming is becoming less viable due to government policies like not letting Sikhs sell crops out of state, which are some of main issues pertaining to independence of Sikh nation. Only reason land hasn't been further subdivided is because of murder of generation born during 70s by Indian gov. 10-20 years after that.

Yes bro East Punjab has historically had the best infrastructure in India but i think our Pakistani veer was meaning more in terms of facilitating higher urban densities. When we see how Ludhiana floods so badly so often it's clear our infrastructure is still poor overall, if considered against global standards rather than compared to Bihar etc.

Why we are still a minority in urban East Punjab astounds me. No wonder everyone in the cities of East Punjab talks in Hindi.

With subdivision and discriminatory GOI policies farming simply isn't viable and those with uneconomic landholdings need to ditch farming asap and work in the urban commercial sector so that Sikhs have more of a presence where the real money is. Rural Sikhs in Punjab can learn a trick or two from our Pakistani Veer's Arain caste in that respect. 100 years ago they were mainly all farmers in united Punjab. Now if I'm not mistaken the Arain caste in Pakistani Punjab dominates the number of lawyers in Lahore courts and has been very successful in making it in an urban commercial setting (despite their equally rural background) so perhaps our Pakistani veer will be kind enough to educate us on the secrets of the Arain caste's success?

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What the eff? O.o

What kind of policy is this? Punjab is already a fertile, agricultural area...agricultural yields must be sold in highly urbanized centers, and industrial zones of country. How Sikhs sell their products if they are not allowed to sell crops out side of state? What is the logic behind this law? Any idea?

It's not so much that the agricultural produce remains restricted to Punjab. It's the fact that the enemy bureaucrats for GOI artifically control the prices by purchasing the produce within the state at artificially low levels. The logic of our enemies is that they keep our people poor and supply the food at subsidised prices to innocent folks who they then program into believing Hinduism and/or voting for the Congress Party. The enemy bureaucrats are afraid of us. All our enemies who have attacked us have been afraid of us because Sikhi stands for equality, justice, fairness and goodwill to all and hence they try to oppress us (or use us) as that doesn't fit or didn't fit with the exploitative model upon which they run their control over nations/empires.

Hence, the urgent importance for us to grow our numbers beyond the 2% that Sikhs currently are among India's 1.25billion.

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1. You'll be wasting your time by calling Prophet a pedophile, or by insulting Islam vigorously as you and others often do here...I mean, insulting like that and dawah don't go hands in hands you know...

2. On a serious note : These is nothing that makes Muslims shy away from Sikhi...The problem is that Islam has built-in structures that make it very, very hard against outside ideologies/influences. For example, Islamic doctrine that Prophet Muhammad was last messenger and Qur'an is the last message of God etc....no other religious system has such built-in doctrines in such clear way. I mean, Qur'an literally mentions it...Bible, Gita, Guru Granth, Torah etc do not mention such doctrines in explicit terms as Islam does.

3. So when someone reach to a Muslim for 'dawah', Muslims generally don't give two heeds about what is being said...b/c remember, it is already established that Islam is the last, and only true faith and Allah himself says it in his book very explicitly (a thing missing in ALL religions)...

4. Salafism has alot to do with politics too. They don't even listen to the preaching of traditional Islam, forget about Sikhi...These movements arise from a culture that is highly tribal and politicized...and the actions of others make them more radical. I mean, look at today, just few hours ago..Army over-threw MuslimBrotherhood's government in Egypt...now, do you think that followers of Muslim Brotherhood will leave party OR they'll become even more radical?

1. Very true bro in respect of a personal face to face setting. But i figured that a proud Muslim coming on to a Sikh forum is hardly a candidate for enlightening about Sikhi, so why not go the direct route and cut out the Islamic dawah at source - as after all, nobody can defend the indefensible and established facts relating to the facts that Muhammad was indeed what is considered to be a pedophile and obviously Muhammad's ownership of slaves and his sale of human beings for financial gain is well documented in the Hadiths, as is the age of Aisha at which he (at 54 years old) consummated the marriage with her (when she was only a 9year old little girl).

2. I hear you and obviously these indoctrination methods have been perfected all the way since the time of Abu Bakr (Aisha's father for those that don't know) but surely educated Muslims themselves can see through the lies themselves? I mean when I read the Quran from cover to cover I was absolutely disgusted by the picture of Allah painted by Muhammad. So surely many Muslims see the character of Muhammad for exactly what he was but are just scared to leave the faith openly?

3. I agree with you, no matter what logical proofs are offered clearly disproving Islam the average indoctrinated believer will stick by Muhammad regardless of the fact that only Allah (swt) + the answers to be given to the most High should be important rather than any misguided loyalty to a man that sold women and children into slavery.

4. Opposing Salafism as I do, one thing is crystal clear, it represents the true ethos of Islam in the true spirit of how Muhammad treated kaffirs+opponents. All the other Muslim schools of thought are glorified apologists I strongly believe.

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