Edl 'sikh Divison'

[TandooriSingh]

In my opinion its really important to not start following a group in its hate against Islam just because they flatter Sikhs and Sikhi as Tommy does...

Some people need to ask themselves the question... Do you hate Islam or just Islamic extremists?! People say EDL and Tommy hate just Islamic extremism but his actions and words say something else he speaks against the Koran as if hes a scolar of it and calls it barbaric.... aren't we told in Gurbani not to speak bad of Islam and the Koran? You guys really wanna cheer people that mock Islam/koran and belief system of so many Sufi sants and Muslims who were blessed my our Gurus?!?!?

I love Islam and the people who follow it peacefully, I dont know where you guys have been bought up that you have so much hate for a faith group but I have some of the nicest, humblest Muslim friends and colleagues.... didn't Guru Hargobind Singh Ji build a mosque for Muslims!?... how would our Gurus feel if EDL turned up outside Mosques built by our Gurus and shouted "who the f**k is allah?" and "Muhammed is a peado"? What would people like Pir Buddha Shah say?

I understand that the EDL have reacted to Islamic extremism but I just don't get the mentality on the forum from fellow Sikhs whereby supporting and justifying the EDL has become accepetable... should some of you on this forum find it acceptable to shout slogans of intolerance and hate against Islam and smash up Muslim shops etc then I just dont understand how thats compatible with Sikhi!? Can someone provide me a historical context where our forefathers have launched a premtive strike on a perceived threat or agaisnt Muslims practising Islam?!

In my opinion, any group that attacks places of worship and religious beliefs is wrong! Guru Tegh Bahadur taught us to defend another's faith even if you don't believe it! I hope we can all put this into practice...

WRONG.

Guru Tegh Bahadur sacrificed himself for peoples RIGHT TO WORSHIP WHATEVER THEY WANTED FREELY. He didn't die just for the sake of Hinduism.

Sikhs are not meant to DEFEND anyones sensibilities and feelings, only our own lofty ideals. We believe in Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, equal rights, and defending the innocent from actual harm.

Where does it say we aren't allowed to criticize other faiths? Where does it say we should stop people calling out Islam for what it really is? All that matters is we tell the TRUTH, however ugly it may be.

In fact our Guru's weren't afraid to criticize and laugh at the illogical nature of other faiths AT ALL!

Here are some facts...

Islam:

The Guru's referred to Halal as 'Kutha' meat. The meat of a dog, because it was considered barbaric. Muslims are mandated to eat Halal meat in the Koran, what does that say for how much our Guru's respect the tenets in the Koran?

Guru Nanak slept with his feet towards the Kabba at Mecca to mock how Muslims pray to it. How much do you think he respected Islam?

The Sikh Empire banned the 'Azaan' wherever it ruled. The Azaan is the call to prayer which basically blasts out the Shahada (the declaration of faith) over a wide radius, annoying the crap out of anyone who isn't Muslim.

The Guru's may have been friends with individual Muslims, and they may even have liked various bits of poetry that fitted their ideals, but that does NOT mean they liked Islam.

Hinduism:

Cutting off a Durga Idols nose:

"During expedition, Guru Gobind Singh reached Kiratpur, which was in the state of Raja Tara Chand in temple of Naina Devi (goddess) where a Sikh Bhairo cut the nose of the Idol of Durga. After complaint of hill kings to Guru Gobind Singh, Singh enquired from the Sikh in front of the kings to which he replied to ask from the goddess who has cut her nose. On this the kings replied that goddess cannot speak. Bhairo laughed and replied, “if the goddess (idol) cannot speak and cannot protect the body then what good you expect from her?” Then the kings were quiet and anger still persists."

Not to mention...

The Guru's told us to reject all of the many falsehoods that these two religions promoted whether it be fasting, pilgrimages, idol worship, inequality and the caste system, the veiling and mistreatment of woman or just dumb old superstitions.

The Guru's thought all these things were either pointless, wrong or downright stupid. Thus, how much respect do you think they had for the principles of these religions? Not much I assure you.

http://www.sikhs.org/guru1.htm

Guru Nanak himself was quite sarcastic and never afraid to make fun of the ineptitude of others.

"When Guru Nanak stopped at Hardwar a pilgrimage center on the Ganges river he found a large gathering of devotees. They were taking ritual baths in the holy river and offering water to the sun. When the Guru asked "Why do you throw water like that?" The pilgrims replied that they were offering it to their ancestors. Guru Nanak upon hearing this started throwing water in the opposite direction towards the west. When the pilgrims asked him what he was doing?. Guru Nanak replied "I am sending water to my farm which is dry". They asked, "How will water reach you crops so far away?". Guru Nanak replied, "If your water can reach your ancestors in the region of the sun, why can't mine reach my fields a short distance away?" The pilgrims realized their folly and fell at the Gurus feet."

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There is no evidence that Guru Hargobind built a Mosque, this is merely speculation.

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You LOVE Islam? Hahahaha! Well sorry to break it to you but Islam HATES you. Whether your Muslim friends are true friends or not I can't say, but I'd be wary of Taqiyya and Kitman if I were you, Muslims are ALLOWED to lie to get what they want. Sikhs are not.

Have you read the Koran? I have. You REALLY should too.

Sura 9:29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah.

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Sura 3:28: Do not take unbelievers as friends, unless it’s to find protection. Hide your faith if needed.

Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

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The EDL are NOT attacking any Muslims, and NOT smashing up any shops or Mosques. There is NO proof of any of this taking place. They continue to peacefully protest, even when they constantly get bottles thrown at them by the Socialist 'United Against Fascism' group. Tommy Robinson has given normal everyday people a platform to voice their anger, that anger could so EASILY have erupted into violence as it did in the Bradford Riots.

You want to talking about smashing up shops?

A gang of 40 Sikhs were forced to smash up a small restaurant in Leicester to root out a bunch of grooming pedophile Muslims. They did this because the desperate family who was suffering wasn't getting ANY help from the police so they turned to the community for help.

The POLICE and the MEDIA have mostly proven that they aren't on OUR side. They are only interested in preserving 'community cohesion' which means licking Muslim bottoms, because they know that SIKHS won't blow themselves up when they get grumpy.

The groomers were arrested STRAIGHT after the attack took place, as the Police couldn't pretend it wasn't happening anymore. It took AGES before the names of the groomers (all of them Muslim, with one Hindu mentioned) were finally released. The use of the term 'ASIAN' constantly smears and insults us, and the Sikhs involved in the attack who got us justice were villified as mere misinformed THUGS. The Police first LIED to our faces, and THEN tried to arrest as many Sikhs as they could afterwards.

If the Police just DID THEIR FREAKING JOB, none of this would have happened...

Who ELSE is worth siding with moreso than the EDL at this point? Aside from UKIP the political party?

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Pre-emptive strike? No problem .

How about Guru Gobind sending Banda Singh to destroy the Mughal government in Punjab? After he believed that he had been betrayed by the Mughals (in this case Bahadur Shah, whom he believed had allied himself to Wazir Khan and was plotting to attack Sikhs) once again.

Now, whether the Bahadur Shah WOULD have betrayed the Sikhs or not, Guru Gobind issued the order regardless as he clearly had had quite enough.

But if I DIDN'T have that great example, what difference would it make?

It is the actions of certain Muslims, their disgusting aggression and intolerance for our way of life (this is happening around the world remember) that is the ONLY reason people feel the way they do and why groups like the EDL exist.

The pre-emptive strike has ALREADY happened, and it was Muslims that fired the first shot. As usual.

The EDL didn't just appear out of NOWHERE. They exist to combat a REAL problem.

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As for the topic...

Didn't we ALREADY have this discussion in the Political forum?

Yet there are still pagal's on this forum who spew idiocy and bury their heads in the sand, and want to pretend that Sharia Law isn't encroaching and already messing with our way of life, and how the VAST majority of Muslims want Sharia Law in the UK.

WHERE IS THE LOGIC in worrying about the chavvy looking white guy across the street, when there's ALREADY some Pakistani nutjob stabbing you in the back?

The PROBLEM RIGHT NOW which is ACTUALLY affecting us is Islam. Let us defeat the MAIN problem first.

Sikhs have a problem. White people have a problem. We have the SAME exact problem.

I'm friends with plenty of white people, and they are either willfully ignorant or TERRIFIED of how the world is changing around them. White people have all but lost their fighting spirit now and we have nothing to fear from them.

What's the phrase? "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

The earliest version of that phrase is Indian by the way .

The 'Sikhs Against EDL' and 'Turban Campaign' must be stopped, they are protecting Muslims and AGAINST our interests. On the other hand if Sikhs want to join the EDL and take part in peaceful protest then more power to them, a few brown faces would tip the balance and we'll all get what we want.

There is only ONE Koran, that is where Sharia Law stems from, and the Hadith of course. 'Radical' Islam and 'Moderate' Islam follow the SAME EXACT principles. The only difference is HOW GOOD OF A MUSLIM DO YOU WANT TO BE?

Muslims are free to believe in whatever they want, so long as it doesn't affect anyone else. The problem is that Islam as it stands will never allow peace and it will never change.

So...

We must chop the balls off Islam once and for all through strong legislation and education. We MUST ensure that Sharia Law, the TRUE nature of Islam stays in the wretched Middle Eastern desert where it rightfully belongs. For the sake of EVERYONES future (Non-Muslim and Muslim) this must happen.

[singh1986]

In response to Tandoori

Nowhere did I state Guru Tegh Bahadur died for Hindusim… I agree he died for Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, equal rights, and defending the innocent and that includes muslims freedom of religion, equal rights etc!

And yes… Thankfully I have taken the time to read the Koran (not a good read in my opinion) and have sought understanding from Muslims who actually speak Arabic and study the Koran, do you read in Arabic or you relying on translations someone made for you?… copying and pasting translations from the internet unfortunately doesn’t give one the understanding of the Koran and Hadiths in my opinion. There are many Sufi and moderate muslims who could take you translations and put them in a different context/interpretation. That is the difference between extremists and moderates! You obviously believe that all Muslims follow your extremist translation. I know they don’t!!!!

Once again although I respect your understanding and knowledge of the term “Kuttha Meat” (never heard of this one before, where the Gurus also anti-Jewish then?!?). However, I would be interested in listening/reading your logic when this argument is put forth to Taksali/AKJ etc Singhs… and others who interpret Kutha as in meat full stop and nothing to do with Islam!? Which is what I personally believe…

You might argue that there is no evidence that Guru Hargobind Singh Ji did not build a mosque but I personally take the word of Baba Kirtan Singh (Tarna Dal) who has stated that the Mosque was built by Guru Sahib. But hey… once again I respect your view if you think Baba Ji is just speculating I personally don’t think Baba ji would speculate that his Jatha have been looking after the mosque.

I would also like to point out that azans where only banned by Sikhs in some areas to prevent extremist Muslim preachers from gaining a platform to launch attacks on Sikh Empire and cause disharmony in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs reign. Its Muslim authors who propagate Sikhs to have been intolerant rulers who banned the Azan all across the Empire. I’m surprised you’re paraphrasing the rhetoric of Anti-Sikh authors. Talking of this period… I am proud that Sikhs did not stop Muslims from practicing Islam imagine the EDL in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs reign and its not as if they didn’t have to deal with Islamic extremism then… its just that they knew not to bash the whole of Islam.

I would also like to point out that the case in Leicester also had Gujarati Hindu groomers involved and it wasn’t only guys from a muslim background! I would also like to point out that all the major Imams in Leicester condemned the groomers involved and Child grooming full stop, surely if you have the read the Koran and are knowledgeable about the true nature of Islam you would know such activities are not permitted in Islam! And yet the voice of the Imams is often ignored. And let me remind people if it has been forgotten that talking of Leicester… It was in Leicester itself in Big Johns restaurant that EDL members smashed the place up whilst the place was full of women and children who in terror had to hide in the kitchens whist drunken thugs ran amok! So yes they do smash up Muslim shops and businesses… anytime they enter a Muslim dominated area that’s what they do… I can’t believe even this point is up for debate when those who have bothered to go to an area once EDL have left will see the drunken mess they have left!

Like I said previously the EDL did not come out of nowhere…. But having pure hate of Islam and all muslims in my opinion is wrong. And I think this is the difference… I do wonder whether some people are so paranoid that muslims are calling them “kaffirs” and doing “black magic” and trying to “convert” them that they are unable to engage in meaningful engagement and discussion with practicing muslims. Anyone actually spoken to an Imam!? Or is this stuff just picked up from Internet and youtube?! They aren’t out to get you!!!

I think this is just one of those things where some Sikhs think its acceptable to team up with the EDL… I say good luck to them. I personally don’t find their views/actions compatible with Sikhi! But that just might me being a “liberal westernised Sikh" I suppose...

[harj1ts1ngh]

Singh1986 said "You might argue that there is no evidence that Guru Hargobind Singh Ji did not build a mosque"

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^^^ Singh1986 Veer, 6th Guru was Guru Hargobind Ji (not GHGS).

Also Azan contains praise of Hazrat Muhammad who Muslims openly admit was slaveowner and pedophile.

Obviously no normal society will allow praise of a pedophile as a rallying cry to Muslims to kill kaffir infidels.

Real Sufi's are not considered Muslims as they do not agree with the personal lifestyle of Hazrat Muhammad.

[proactive]

^^^ Singh1986 Veer, 6th Guru was Guru Hargobind Ji (not GHGS).

I already pointed his mistake out to him in my post before you did but he continued to refer to Guru Hargobind Sahib as Guru Hargobind Singh! He obviously has the time to ask read the Quran, ask Muslims it's meaning but can't be bothered to refer to the Guru by his correct name!

A lot is made of the Guru Ki Maseet but no evidence is every presented that it was actually built by Guru Hargobind ( not Guru Hargobind Singh!). Even if it were does that mean that Sikhs have a duty to build Mosques considering they will be used as a base to attack them in the future?

He obviously did not have the time to read the above, probably too busy digesting the BS given to him by his Muslim mates. On the point of the Guru KI Maseet, now if the Sikhs of 18th century were aware of what the Guru had done for the Muslims, then why was the Mosque in Shahbad converted into a Gurdwara in the 1780s?

You might argue that there is no evidence that Guru Hargobind Singh Ji did not build a mosque but I personally take the word of Baba Kirtan Singh (Tarna Dal) who has stated that the Mosque was built by Guru Sahib. But hey… once again I respect your view if you think Baba Ji is just speculating I personally don’t think Baba ji would speculate that his Jatha have been looking after the mosque.

It could be to so with him wanting publicity for his group. By doing what he did he made headlines in newspapers across India. What is the maryada for removing the Guru Granth Sahib from where it has had parkash and sukhasan for the last 60 years and then turn that building over to the Muslims? Is there any precedent for that? No wonder the Muslims of Lahore have been enboldened to do mischief around the Shahidganj Gurdwara. His removal of the Guru Granth Sahib is certainly not something that the Sikhs of old would have done but then these are new age Nihangs, so PC they would make people like the UAF and western liberals cringe at the way they submit to the Muslim demands!

I would also like to point out that azans where only banned by Sikhs in some areas to prevent extremist Muslim preachers from gaining a platform to launch attacks on Sikh Empire and cause disharmony in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs reign. Its Muslim authors who propagate Sikhs to have been intolerant rulers who banned the Azan all across the Empire. I’m surprised you’re paraphrasing the rhetoric of Anti-Sikh authors. Talking of this period… I am proud that Sikhs did not stop Muslims from practicing Islam imagine the EDL in Maharaja Ranjit Singhs reign and its not as if they didn’t have to deal with Islamic extremism then… its just that they knew not to bash the whole of Islam.

That's just pure speculation on your part. The only 'extremist' Muslim preacher at that time who was against the Sikh state was Syed Ahmed who operated in the tribal areas and Peshawar region of the Sikh state. But the azan was banned across the Sikh state. So either there were 'extremist' preachers in every mosque in Punjab or you're just speculating in order to defend your false statement,

I would also like to point out that the case in Leicester also had Gujarati Hindu groomers involved and it wasn’t only guys from a muslim background!

The fact that gujju haram.zadas were involved just shows how bad the situation has got. While people like you are poring over the Quran, the groomers are so confident that they can get way with their evil acts that they involve people of other communities in their acts not fearing that they would have no loyalty to them and would have no qualms in giving them up to the police.

They aren’t out to get you!!!

Said the Turkey on seeing the farmer and his wife enter the pen on Xmas morning brandishing a knife!

[singh_comradz]

Maharaaj has given the panth the gift of khande pahul di daat and the ability to stand on our own two feet.

Guru Gobind Singh Jee has made his Khalsa fight 125,000.

We don't need to rely on others for support. When the 2011 riots happened the Sikhs were out protecting places of worship where the edl were no where to be seen.

Sikhi teaches us to be 'nirvair' - without hate. This principle is against the ethos of the edl who are anti - islam in every way, shape or form.

Therefore when it comes to the edl, sikhs don't need to join the pro or anti camps.

By doing so, it shows that we are moving away from the principles of gurmat and having faith in maharaaj

[singh_comradz]

The people here advocating hate of muslims, understand one thing.

When muslims killed millions of hindus during moghul raaj, none of the Guru Sahibaans preached hate towards one religion. Instead they raised the sword against the tyrant, regardlesss of what religion the tyrant followed, whether it was the moghuls, afghans, or hindu hill rajas.

Their actions set a precedent for us to follow.

[alwayshere]

i support them, there is no sikh movement or even enough unity between the youth to tackle any issues within our community properly so why not give this a try

from browsing this site and occasionly posting i can already see that most people on here live sheltered lives and have probably never had any issues with the muslim community, so you wont understand, all this awareness, internet groups and gurdwara meetings with pappus wont solve anything

[SikhKosh]

Guru Granth Sahib rejects circumcision, Hajj, Ramadan, Hindu fasts, idol worship, etc. Stop being politically correct.

"Call the religions of the Vedas and Katebs false, false is he who does not contemplate on the Truth." - Bhagat Kabeer Ji (1350, SGGS)

[Hammertime007]

i support them, there is no sikh movement or even enough unity between the youth to tackle any issues within our community properly so why not give this a try

from browsing this site and occasionly posting i can already see that most people on here live sheltered lives and have probably never had any issues with the muslim community, so you wont understand, all this awareness, internet groups and gurdwara meetings with pappus wont solve anything

100 percent agree. Groups like sikhs against edl and city sikhs are pappoos sticking up for people who hates us

[Jonny101]

That's just pure speculation on your part. The only 'extremist' Muslim preacher at that time who was against the Sikh state was Syed Ahmed who operated in the tribal areas and Peshawar region of the Sikh state. But the azan was banned across the Sikh state. So either there were 'extremist' preachers in every mosque in Punjab or you're just speculating in order to defend your false statement,

Proactive Veerji, I think this statement about banning of the Azan is a myth created by Muslims in the post anglo Sikh war period. This myth was further magnified by the Muslim league propagandists to demonize the Sikhs so as to incite the Mulsims against the Sikhs. Islam in danger was their slogan and Sikhs at the time were their favourite community to hate. Since Sikhs had all the historical reasons to want to oppose Islamic rule in the form of Pakistan, they (Muslims) had no real reason to hate Sikhs other than their made up myths like saying Sikhs banned Azan or that Sikhs mistreated Muslims the same way Muslims had mistreated Sikhs during Islamic rule.

Truth be told, Sikh rule was the most just rule ever in Indian history. Hindus and Muslims were treated fairly. The Sikh state was so just that it puts to shame the present Pakistan and India. In Sikh rule there was never any Muslim Hindu riot, never any Shia Sunni riot like there are today in the sub continent. Only Syad Ahmad Barelvi tried to cause trouble, but that episode was short lived. May Guru Jee again bless Sikh Raaj.