Do Only Khalsa Amritdhari Gursikhs Leave Reincarnation?

[Bijla Singh]

With all due respect, this entire discussion on nirgun sargun reads wrong. Questions and answers reveal that both are a bit lost. Maybe its wrong choice of words. While the intent is right and it is great of have this type of vichaar but I encourage usage of Gurbani so we don't miss the essence. Again, I intend no disrespect. Guru Rakha

[N30S1NGH]

Is Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Ankar, and lobh Sargun or aspect of Sargun?

It's maya and maya is illusion we could say vices are subtle tendencies and actions which are done by influence of these tendacies are done in realm of (trai gun-sargun- maya smait) so actions influenced by vices are in realm of sargun rather vices being itself sargun or being aspect of sargun.

Maya-5 vices it's neither real nor fake its illusory connected with our human consciousness/meta reality/perception. It exist as long as human consciousness perceives it and influence by it, as soon as human consciousness perceives bhramgyan of real self, maya-5 vices tendacies is no where to be found in that human consciousness/perception.

[N30S1NGH]

With all due respect, this entire discussion on nirgun sargun reads wrong. Questions and answers reveal that both are a bit lost. Maybe its wrong choice of words. While the intent is right and it is great of have this type of vichaar but I encourage usage of Gurbani so we don't miss the essence. Again, I intend no disrespect. Guru Rakha

Good to hear from you bro and hear your feedback. The answers are based on my understanding after research and contemplation of deep layers of gurmat. We are all learners so lets do ardas to guru maharaj to give us more bibek buddhi to dive more deeper into deeper layers of Gurmat.

[Only five]

It's maya and maya is illusion we could say vices are subtle tendencies and actions which are done by influence of these tendacies are done in realm of (trai gun-sargun- maya smait) so actions influenced by vices are in realm of sargun rather vices being itself sargun or being aspect of sargun.

Maya-5 vices it's neither real nor fake its illusory connected with our human consciousness/meta reality/perception. It exist as long as human consciousness perceives it and influence by it, as soon as human consciousness perceives bhramgyan of real self, maya-5 vices tendacies is no where to be found in that human consciousness/perception.

Maya existence is not dependant on human consciousness. In Sri Anand Sahib Satguru says Akal Purakh created maya:

ਮਾਇਆ ਤ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਤਿਨੈ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਠਗਉਲੀ ਪਾਈਆ ॥ ang 918

[Only five]

It's maya and maya is illusion we could say vices are subtle tendencies and actions which are done by influence of these tendacies are done in realm of (trai gun-sargun- maya smait) so actions influenced by vices are in realm of sargun rather vices being itself sargun or being aspect of sargun.

Maya-5 vices it's neither real nor fake its illusory connected with our human consciousness/meta reality/perception. It exist as long as human consciousness perceives it and influence by it, as soon as human consciousness perceives bhramgyan of real self, maya-5 vices tendacies is no where to be found in that human consciousness/perception.

Is Sargun subject to Akal Purakh?

[N30S1NGH]

Maya existence is not dependant on human consciousness. In Sri Anand Sahib Satguru says Akal Purakh created maya:

ਮਾਇਆ ਤ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਤਿਨੈ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਠਗਉਲੀ ਪਾਈਆ ॥ ang 918

Yes akaal purakh created maya but like everything else its connected with our consciouness- everything is inter-related and ultimately its neither real nor fake as ultimately maya existence is perceived by individual and also dependent on spiritual development of human consciousness blessed by guru's grace.

Please contemplate on full sukhmani sahib 21st astphadi, listen to sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale katha again, 21st asthpadi talks sargun nirgun nirankar sun sun samadhi ajap jap in detail also talks about 4 types of nature parloa (destruction), but asthpadi also talks about 5th most important one bhramgyan/gyan parloa where in the bhramgyan ultimate non transcendental consciousness nothing exist all the perceptions, concepts, maya, technicalities etc does not exist in the consciousness..nothing exist in the supreme consciousness as everything just folds and that itself is ultimate reality of bhramgyan.

According to my understanding and contemplation of gurbani, all the concepts, various percetions, maya khel does not exist in bhramgyani consciouness -that does not mean it literally does not exist that very much exist on seperate meta reality/human consciouness level.

For example in gurbani- subtle aspect of sargun-

Kya Narak, Kya Surag Vichaara, Santan Doyoo Roade ||

Perception of hell or heaven does not exist in saint's consciousness, so to them why even vichar about it among themselves? Both are rejected. Now that does not mean hell or heaven literally don't exist , it very much exist but on separate meta reality level/ human consciousness level.

That reinforces every concept in sikhi is not separate organized christian abhramic type of concepts/christian type- seing it separate entity and man being doomed in it ...rather everything is interrelated ultimately part of supreme consciousness (IKongkar)

However, what underpins human consciousness getting out of maya perception, slowly perceiving higher reality supreme consciousness and going towards it ultimate reality is hakum of akaal purkh/satguru's grace (be it animate-sargun, non animate form- shabad/self).

Is Sargun subject to Akal Purakh?

Everything is interrelated nothing is separate entity on its own that would denote duality contary to gurmat non dual path.

[Only five]

Yes akaal purakh created maya but like everything else its connected with our consciouness- everything is inter-related and ultimately its neither real nor fake as ultimately maya existence is perceived by individual and also dependent on spiritual development of human consciousness blessed by guru's grace.

Again you are saying maya existence is perceived by individual.......But Satguru does not say this. Satguru says Maya has been created. For example spirituality existence is not perceieved by individuals. A person cannot say spirituality does not exist simply by saying I can't see it or I have surpassed it. Satguru created maya and it's existence is not dependant on humans.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥

ang 291

Above is from Sri Sukhmani Sahib the 21st Astphadee. You say maya existence is perceived by individuals. But Satguru in the above says there is no other doer. Vaheguru does all (which means he created maya). If anything you have said their is dualism in Sikhi.

[N30S1NGH]

Again you are saying maya existence is perceived by individual.......But Satguru does not say this. Satguru says Maya has been created. For example spirituality existence is not perceieved by individuals. A person cannot say spirituality does not exist simply by saying I can't see it or I have surpassed it. Satguru created maya and it's existence is not dependant on humans.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥

ang 291

Above is from Sri Sukhmani Sahib the 21st Astphadee. You say maya existence is perceived by individuals. But Satguru in the above says there is no other doer. Vaheguru does all (which means he created maya). If anything you have said their is dualism in Sikhi.

I already mentioned maya is created by akaal purkh. However, maya - 5 vices- panj chor - kaam, krodh, lob, moh, ahankar is not rock solid creation (lack for better term) as its illusion-illusory limited to five physical and subtle senses ...its neither fake nor real. It's real when individual consciousness affected by it and perceived it as that and its cease to exist when individual consciouness is leen in its real saroop supreme consciouness - atma-paratma and its no where to found in bhramgyani supreme consciousness/vahiguroo as its out of maya realm so there is no perception of maya there but perception of maya is found rather in maya mandal (lack of better word) -plane of existence/in non liberated individual consciousness.

Also please listen to bhramgyan parloa portion in the 21st asthapadi katha by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale for further in depth katha.

In puratan sampardaras there is quite in depth discussion on dristha/dristhi/dristh (perceptor/perception)- who is preceptor? who is perceiving? and whats being perceived? its classic riddle asked by bhai dya singh ji written in soraj parkash and along with 61 questions quizzed by sri guru gobind singh ji in sri akaal ustat sahib...i am not saying my answers are gospel truth and for everyone to accept and they are final...they are just based on my understanding, my research of deep layers of gurmat in gurbani ...you are more than welcome to starts your own search bro you are not confined to my answers. Puratan gursikhs would spent 20 years-30 years not only spent years with mahapursh/gyani learn and search for answers intellectually within gurbani but also get their own answers during bhagti as well.

I am done with this discussion bro. Enjoy !!

[Only five]

I already mentioned maya is created by akaal purkh. However, maya - 5 vices- panj chor - kaam, krodh, lob, moh, ahankar is not rock solid creation (lack for better term) as its illusion-illusory limited to five physical and subtle senses ...its neither fake nor real. It's real when individual consciousness affected by it and perceived it as that and its cease to exist when individual consciouness is leen in its real saroop supreme consciouness - atma-paratma and its no where to found in bhramgyani supreme consciousness/vahiguroo as its out of maya realm so there is no perception of maya there but perception of maya is found rather in maya mandal (lack of better word) -plane of existence/in non liberated individual consciousness.

This what Gurbani says and this is where I am getting my answer:

ਨਾਉ ਬੀਜੁ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਬੋਹਲ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸਗਲ ਦਰੋਗ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਵਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਵਿਜੋਗ ॥੨॥ ang 955

I remember in one of our other discussions you said the world was the Sargun Saroop of Akal Purakh. Here in the above Gurbani, Satguru is saying that the world is false. Therefore Sargun Saroop of Maharaj cannot be the world.

Next here is Gurbani it is staed that all the worlds (creation) is maya:

ਸਰਬ ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਭਵਨ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ang 351

In all I have seen your form and the whole world is your maya

Do you see how in both lines of Gurbani presented that Maharaj says a fully consciousness being (Brahmgyani) will realize this. This means your theory that maya existence is dependant on humans jeevan is false. The world does not cease to exist once a Sikh becomes Gurmukh. If it did then Baba Budha ji would have destroyed the world.

The one tuk you use to say the world is Sargun Saroop of Maharaj is saying exactly as to what the above tuk is saying. In that pauri on ang 922 of Sri Anand Sahib Maharaj is saying develop the eyes to see Maharaj in everything.

[N30S1NGH]

Here is further clarification bro on my previous post as i already mentioned sargun is nirgun and nirgun is sargun as Ikongkar - sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai- in eyes of bhramgyani in the past.

I already mentioned maya is created by akaal purkh. However, maya - 5 vices- panj chor - kaam, krodh, lob, moh, ahankar is not rock solid creation (lack for better term) as its illusion-illusory limited to five physical and subtle senses ...its neither fake nor real. It's real when individual consciousness affected by it and perceived it as that and its cease to exist when individual consciouness is leen in its real saroop supreme consciouness - atma-paratma and its no where to found in bhramgyani supreme consciousness/vahiguroo as its out of maya realm so there is no perception of maya but world being -sargun parsara -parpanch being hari roop- Eh Vish sansar tum dekhde eh har ka roop hai har roop nadri aaya || ... perception of maya is found rather in maya mandal (lack of better word) -plane of existence/in non liberated individual consciousness.