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Singh559

Over Analyzing And Making Sikhi 'complicated'.

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There's two ways to look at it: Some analyse to truly comprehend (and occasionally it does go over the head of most people such as myself), whilst there's a few who analyse and over-expand to make themselves feel superior to the simple folk. I guess it depends a lot on the intention.

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There's two ways to look at it: Some analyse to truly comprehend (and occasionally it does go over the head of most people such as myself), whilst there's a few who analyse and over-expand to make themselves feel superior to the simple folk. I guess it depends a lot on the intention.

I was thinking the same thing and was going to elaborate and acknowledge another side, but I know the kind of replies people would make. Generally speaking the rule I now follow is if someone can't explain a concept very simply and directly, I won't listen. Sikhi is about making someone walk a path and then eat the fal of your bhagti and GurSikhi jeevan - something you can't observe or explain.

An example of something acceptable, in my opinion, is getting someone to follow rehit and explain why rehit is important. After that it's the individual's journey with Vaheguru. Brahmgianis that I've seen don't tell people to do something a certain way and over analyze and explain things, they deliver Guru Sahib's message and get people to become GurSikhs and join them with Guru Granth Sahib.

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There's two ways to look at it: Some analyse to truly comprehend (and occasionally it does go over the head of most people such as myself), whilst there's a few who analyse and over-expand to make themselves feel superior to the simple folk. I guess it depends a lot on the intention.

A while back I remember some individuals on SS said that Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale's katha wasn't that "deep", by deep they actually meant didn't get lost in stories like those told by Giani Thakur Singh from Patiala leaving the listener with a false sense of accomplishment.

In reality Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale's katha is both deep and according to Gurmat, none better than Sant Ji (and Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale and Taksal in general). I used to like writing essays on forums like SS, but now I just see it as "vele bandeya da kam" and don't see a point anymore. Sikhi is about action and understanding Gurbani prema bhagti.

Saach Kaho Sunleho Sabhe, Jin Prem Keeyo Tin Hi Prabh Payo - Dhan Guru Gobind SIngh Ji

There is a fine line indeed between brahman analysis, general over analysis, or even normal analysis and actually Gurmat Veechar, the key is differentiating and recognizing Gurmat.

That's the intention of this topic, so people can discuss this subject and bring to light what Professor Puran Singh Ji meant and how a good portion of the panth is actually stuck in this brahmanvad. Just like victims, many people will be in denial and use the cunning "acknowledge the other side" tool to make their own point seem more legitimate. Would like if people are a bit more objective on this topic lol.

Not pointing fingers at anyone, but I saw this quote and it really hit home for me because this issue has been bothering me personally and shared with Sangat in hopes we can all have a good discussion on this.

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Overall, youths are becoming lazy, there are so much wealth of gurmat knowledge/teaching out there online by our ancestors-saints/scholars to explore deep layers of gurmat and apply the knowledge in our lives and do parchar- its our responsibility to do our share or part whatever it might be ...awareness of gurmat knowledge/sikhi basic fundamental teaching- dya, dharam, humility, advait nirvair, nirbhaou are only way to beat ignorance which may falls into arrogrance , missionary and only way to do parchar even those who are bhramgyani sants (for most part) have studied frame work of sikhi and explore deep layers of gurmat both intellectually and practically.

Knowledge of Gurmat isn't over-anyalizing its just one aspect of Sikhi - it becomes over anaylizing if someone makes it their final destination without spiritual aim. Khoj of Gurmat- Its genuine khoj of seeker/sikh-learner to explore what guru maharaj is trying to tell us so we can reconcile/contextualize each shabad properly to ensure there are no conflicts, debates/division among sikh so that we can do parchar.

If deeply exploring finest tat of gurmat is over anaylizing then sant kartar singh bhindranwale wouldn't have wrote teaching of gurmat by sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale -800 pages long teeka of japji sahib alone. Unfortunately, most people would be only excited that this teeka gets online not exicited about reading and applying the knowledge pratically.

This was atmosphere around sri guru gobind singh time in maharaj darbar of kavi poets - 52 poets.

What an intellectual heritage we have! History, hagiography, philosophy, mysticism, polity, lingvistics, mythology, eulogy, tales of love and sacrifice, manuals of writing poetry and prose, manuals of government and nation building, manuals of logic and rhetoric’s, manuals of ethics and morals, dictionaries and discussion of words - all of this was composed in the majestic darbaar of Guru Gobind Singh. Indeed, what a heritage we have!

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Overall, youths are becoming lazy, there are so much wealth of gurmat knowledge/teaching out there online by our ancestors-saints/scholars to explore deep layers of gurmat and apply the knowledge in our lives and do parchar- its our responsibility to do our share or part whatever it might be ...awareness of gurmat knowledge/sikhi basic fundamental teaching- dya, dharam is only way to beat ignorance/missionary and only way to do parchar even those who are bhramgyani sants (for most part) have studied frame work of sikhi and explore deep layers of gurmat..

Knowledge of Gurmat isn't over-anyalizing its just one aspect of it - it becomes over anaylizing if someone makes it their final destination without spiritual aim. Khoj of Gurmat- Its genuine khoj of seeker/sikh-learner to explore what guru maharaj is trying to tell us so we can reconcile/contextualize each shabad properly to ensure there are no conflicts, debates/division among sikh.

If deeply exploring finest tat of gurmat is over anaylizing then sant kartar singh bhindranwale wouldn't have wrote teaching of gurmat by sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale -800 pages long teeka of japji sahib alone. Unfortunately, most people would be only excited that this teeka gets online not make attempts to read it.

This was atmosphere around sri guru gobind singh time in maharaj darbar of kavi poets - 52 poets.

Yes, I also follow Bhai Nand Lal and Court Jewels of Guru Gobind Singh Ji on facebook as well...indebted to the Singhs who run the page and appreciate their work. That is a different subject than being discussed.

Anyways, so you disagree with Professor Puran Singh Ji? His quote doesn't refer to Taksal nor does it refer to Gurbani Veechar - see my last post.

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I don't disagree with his quote, its not that black and white.. He is speaking from pure love feeling perspective-bhai nand lal ji type of immense high love stage. Once we all get there, we will perceive pratically what his quote is perceiving too but with that being said, his quote cannot be applied to all perspectives or aspects. For example- you cannot give this quote to 20 year old sikh boy who is in the process of becoming an parcharikh which is also an stage in itself all going towards main goal but if same 20 year old boy wrap his head around knowledge making that as road block itself in spirituality then this quote should come in handy.

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I don't disagree with his quote, its not that black and white.. He is speaking from pure love feeling perspective-bhai nand lal ji type of immense high love stage. Once we all get there, we will perceive pratically what his quote is perceiving too but with that being said, his quote cannot be applied to all perspectives or aspects. For example- you cannot give this quote to 20 year old sikh boy who is in the process of becoming an parcharikh wihch is also an stage in itself all going towards main goal.

Yes it doesn't apply to everything blindly, never insinuated that, but I can actually think of many cases where what Bhai Sahib says is true with modern kathavachiks. You will never find their kind of modern katha done by the likes of old Taksal, Sants or like Sant Singh Maskeen. They are very direct and easy to understand and they speak to people of all avastas- both high and low.

Personally when I get goosebumps is when I hear a katha once and hear it again and again and keep finding something new. I don't like exaggerations and lies about miracles that attempt to make the katavachik seem really "good" or a bunch of complex concepts that really don't make sense, even if you try to wrap your head around. Such things should be left to experience.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

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In grand scheme of things, expereince, pratical sikh living is everything but sometimes those complex concepts exploring deep layers of gurmat are needed (for understanding purposes not to wrap our head around it too) to do parchar, clear misunderstanding people have and to beat missionary parchar as biggest problem with missionaries is lack of contextualization, failure to look at gurmat from sargun, shabad, nirgun-gyan perspective.

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In grand scheme of things, expereince, pratical living is everything but sometimes those complex concepts exploring deep layers of gurmat are needed (for understanding purposes not to wrap our head around it too) to clear misunderstanding people have and to beat missionary parchar as biggest problem with missionaries is lack of contextualization, failure to look at gurmat from sargun, shabad, nirgun-gyan perspective.

Don't bring missionaries or LondonUK and are going to come in here lol.

Let's try something else, you said you don't disagree with Bhai Puran Singh Ji's quote. Can you specify what you agree with and give me an example of a kathavaachik or example of brahmanic analysis/overanalysis that you would consider refers to the quote?

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“Beware of the magic of Brahmanical philosophic analysis of everything, even the most secret and complex infinites of faith, life and love. It killed them, it shall kill you. Analysis is the opposite pole of feeling. I worship my mother, I love my wife, but what would they be if I wished to know them by analysis!” Professor Puran Singh Ji

Here i don't think prof puran singh ji confines bhramanical philsophic type "analysis' to only hindus or bhramin, snatan as you quoted but it applies to much broader context as well mindset from all religions which includes hindus as well and as its do with "pscho analysis everything" with or without parnioa which screws people up in long run as raw anything is bad. Gurmat is balanced, center marg.

We do have examples too in our panth where kathavachikhs goes off tangent in sakhiya and over complication which screws up rhythm of katha. However, over complication too is subjective term - it could be over complicated for someone but it may not over complicated for others. As van hel singh veer said, It truly depends on intention of individual. Its hard to say

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A while back I remember some individuals on SS said that Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale's katha wasn't that "deep", by deep they actually meant didn't get lost in stories like those told by Giani Thakur Singh from Patiala leaving the listener with a false sense of accomplishment.

In reality Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale's katha is both deep and according to Gurmat, none better than Sant Ji (and Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale and Taksal in general). I used to like writing essays on forums like SS, but now I just see it as "vele bandeya da kam" and don't see a point anymore. Sikhi is about action and understanding Gurbani prema bhagti.

....

Some like to add their own masaleh to spice up proceedings, all the while thinking, "As long as it gets the sangat on-side, whether it's strictly true or not it doesn't really matter as long as I'm not blaspheming or leading them away from Waheguru". Whilst others stick to the message, not one syllable more or less, and they leave it up to us to take the decision, without any inducements of any sort. Whatever works I guess.

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I agree with you. This over analyses of the simple path of Gurmat like Pandits just makes it more confusing and can even cause a potential brain freeze at times :ohno: . When one listens to the Kathas done by Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale and his successors, one notices how direct and straight to the point their viakhya was. Nothing like today where people try to over analyse and make every thing multi dimensional to the point where one wonders "what the heck is this person talking about?" Guru Jee gave us a simple path so the average down to earth men can follow it. They followed the simple path of the Gurus not the confusing multi dimensional path of the Pundits.

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In grand scheme of things -

Sri guru gobind singh ji sums it up all in two lines in sri akaal ustat which triumph all

Sab karam fookat jan sab dharam naihfal man
Bin ek naam aadhar sab karam barhm bichar
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I find sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale katha to be quite deep actually its not all direct straight to vaikhiya. As i was talking to johnny veer in this thread below, japji sahib teeka by sant kartar singh bhindranwale teaching of gurmat by sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale is close to whopping 800 pages long with full analysis, conceptual entomology theological commentary of Gurmat. Yes in grand scheme of things, everything is simple*(refer to akaal ustat line above) but one simply cannot ignore other aspects - vidya. It's all about striking a right balance.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/34596-meaning-of-gur-prasad/page-2

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