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Free Will, Hukam, Karam?


TheFancyBanana
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If you read Ashtpadhi 21, Sri Sukhmani Sahib, that explains why Waheguru creates the us, and why he plays the game. He creates demons, and deities. As kids, when we wanted to play a game of cards, play chess etc, we had to find an opponent, otherwise the game couldn't be played.

Why do people enjoy going into a maize? Why do people enjoy playing games? It's the same with Waheguru...

It is a cruel world, in terms of pain and suffering, but there exists remedy too; Waheguru expects us to follow Gurbani.

Guru Nanak Ji came to earth in the purest form. I.e. aap Naryan kala Dhaar...to show us the way to salvation.

He creates 4 yugs, turn by turn, and then wraps everything up, until he wants to do it all over again.

The world is a cruel place; perhaps that's why 10th Patshahi in Jaap Sahib describes Waheguru as kroor Karmeh. I.e. doer of cruel things, but Maharaj does namo to that aspect of Waheguru too...

Waheguru....

Nice post

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Lol yeh really good question though I believe both action and thought are done by God. The decision in my opinion would be dependent on intellect of the individual. The intellect is based on a persons life experiences, what they have studied in life, their up bringing, their responses to the 5 senses etc etc. But like you said in the simulation they had all the same experiences and everything was the same. Therefore it would be likely to be the same action every time but I am also aware of each visual and sensory stimulus does not necessary cause the same action it could be one of many learnt actions. It would be like the matrix when neo is with the architect and they are looking at the screens determining the possible actions he will do next. But the question is who determines that particular action, which I believe to be God as thought and action occur hundredths of seconds before we become consciously aware of them.

Yes that would be a great thing to do. I would also like to hear opposing views but the main reason I am against free will is that it if there was free will it would make God not all knowing... Also having no free will gives the solution to the karmic paradox I mentioned earlier. But I am always open to different opinions.

Was actually thinking of this and "The One". Yeah, I was actually starting to lean towards no free will despite posing that question/scenario because if literally everything in the Universe including experiences and whatnot in everyone in the Universe could be replicated (theoretically) an infinite amount of times, it should be the same. Then again when someone does Naam and recites Vaheguru's name don't they get rid of karam and start to merge back into Vaheguru even while alive? Only way to get out of karam and charasi lakh joon is through Guru Sahib.

Good to see others thinking about these things lol, really is insane to think about especially considering how little we know and how massive even the observable Universe is. Who knows how many times we've lived and what we've seen in our previous janams. After a point i think there is only so much we can speculate on and rest depends on how much simran we do and answers may come then.

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Guru Nanak Ji came to earth as the pure embodiment of Waheguru, I.e. not under any influence of maya.

We came to earth, as embodiment of Waheguru, but under the influence of maya.

As jeevs, Waheguru is under the influence of maya in that role, but at the same time, he remains detached:

Electricity is powering my computer, the computer is not electricity, the computer is electricity roop. If I smash my computer, that will not affect the national grid electricity supply.

Waheguru adopts the two roops, I.e. Sargun and nirgun. On a sunny day we place 100 buckets of water in the garden, the suns rays reflect in each bucket, that does not mean that there are 100 individual suns, there is only one sun, but 100 reflections. If we destroy one bucket, have we destroyed the sun? If we destroy all buckets, the sun still remains intact.

Waheguru is within us, and separate at the same time. If you look in the mirror, you will see your face. If you look into 100 angled mirrors, you will see 100 of you, but in reality, you are one, not 100.

Waheguru has the ability to ek and anek, at the same time. Just as the sun remains detached from the buckets of water, but gives its rays to the water, just as the 100 mirrors cause the illusion of you being 100; in the same way Wahegurus pritibimbh is within us, in reflection form, but separate, at the same time too...

Waheguru...

waheguru. i think i finally understood sargun nirgun.

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Was actually thinking of this and "The One". Yeah, I was actually starting to lean towards no free will despite posing that question/scenario because if literally everything in the Universe including experiences and whatnot in everyone in the Universe could be replicated (theoretically) an infinite amount of times, it should be the same. Then again when someone does Naam and recites Vaheguru's name don't they get rid of karam and start to merge back into Vaheguru even while alive?

Good to see others thinking about these things lol, really is insane to think about especially considering how little we know and how massive even the observable Universe is. Who knows how many times we've lived and what we've seen in our previous janams. After a point i think there is only so much we can speculate on and rest depends on how much simran we do and answers may come then.

Yeh tell me about it. A lot of the stuff just goes way over my head :blush2: God's creation and attributes have no limit.. it's just too much to comprehend lol. To be frank my interpretation of naam has changed over the years as I have been using gurbani to test my understanding of naam and the meaning of it. I've come to the conclusion that understanding naam for even 1 sec burns all karma.. But that is another topic in itself and we could open a topic talking about what is naam? As I don't want to side track from this topic.

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Guru Nanak Ji came to earth as the pure embodiment of Waheguru, I.e. not under any influence of maya.

We came to earth, as embodiment of Waheguru, but under the influence of maya.

As jeevs, Waheguru is under the influence of maya in that role, but at the same time, he remains detached:

Electricity is powering my computer, the computer is not electricity, the computer is electricity roop. If I smash my computer, that will not affect the national grid electricity supply.

Waheguru adopts the two roops, I.e. Sargun and nirgun. On a sunny day we place 100 buckets of water in the garden, the suns rays reflect in each bucket, that does not mean that there are 100 individual suns, there is only one sun, but 100 reflections. If we destroy one bucket, have we destroyed the sun? If we destroy all buckets, the sun still remains intact.

Waheguru is within us, and separate at the same time. If you look in the mirror, you will see your face. If you look into 100 angled mirrors, you will see 100 of you, but in reality, you are one, not 100.

Waheguru has the ability to ek and anek, at the same time. Just as the sun remains detached from the buckets of water, but gives its rays to the water, just as the 100 mirrors cause the illusion of you being 100; in the same way Wahegurus pritibimbh is within us, in reflection form, but separate, at the same time too...

Waheguru...

I agree with your post above but I don't agree with your understanding of karama as you contradict yourself on the effects of having no karma. I understand what you are saying but it doesn't seem to me to be correct. I thank you for taking your time out to reply to my posts.

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mokham singh ji, i prefer your argument.

i think of it as a game. god set a tamasha (guru nanak called it a play). god watches this game or play folding out. the aim of the game is to reunite with waheguru. in the way is maya, who stops us. maya attempts to break us down and stop us. but god wants us to make it. god protects players who ask him. so like bubbles from the ocean. the bubble wants to merge back. but maya locks the water in a bubble. we have to escape. this is naam simrans job. guru nanak came to break us out (miti dhund jag chanun hoa). so we play. some get influenced by karma. others wont. those who get bad karma and dnt win the game (unite with god) have to replay (reincarnation). the karm from previous lives determines the cards they are dealt with in the next. bad karam is worse cards. but we can all make it out if we get luck or kirpa done on us. "jo to prem khela ka chao". the game of love. we all play, but some lose to maya so they dnt step on the path and gove their ego up to guru sahib. late night thoughts :D. sorry if it makes no sense.

Meh hoo param purkh ka daasa; dekhan ayo Jagath tamasha....10th Patshahi...

It is all a tamasha, and Naam is the only salvation. The beauty of Naam is that it starts to drown maya out, so eventually one is left with the Anand of Naam. The person still plays the worldly game, but now the the world is a playground, rather than a battlefield.

Prisons are full of inmates, who have to abide by the rules and endure suffering. The prison has a Governor, security guards, and visitors; despite the latter being in prison, they're not there to suffer, they are free to come and go as they please.

If you reas the last pankti of Ashpadhi 21, it says it's up to Waheguru whom he wants to play the game of maya, and whom he wants to play the game of Naam...

Waheguru.....

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