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TheFancyBanana

Free Will, Hukam, Karam?

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Naam removes previous karams so we have no karma remaining but if we had no previous karams to start of with then shouldn't we be liberated in both situations? Using your theory maya would still effect a person without karma be it with naam or without then there is no escape. Can maya effect or influence a person without karma?

So you said the jeev is placed under maya by God thereby god is causing the individual to do evil or good. Lets say we do naam and we get our karma amount to zero then how do we know that god won't just put us into the grips of maya again like he did when we started of?

When first created, our previous karams were zero, but despite this liberty, we then started doing things under the I fluency of maya.

When Waheguru created the jeev, it is Waheguru himself who comes to the world, in the form of the jeev. Waheguru, in the form of jeev, has to place himself under maya, otherwise the worldly game cannot be played out. Please read Ashtpadhi 21 of Sukhmani Sahib.

Once the jeev becomes liberated from maya, through Naam, the jeev will not go to its influence again:

When a water bubble floats on the water, it appears to be separate from the ocean, but when it bursts it becomes ocean roop. Once it becomes ocean roop, can you bring that particular bubble back?

When everything ceases to be, and all the jeevs become infused in Naam, then is no more individuality.

When Waheguru decides to create the universes again, then the same game takes place, but this time it won't be us, since we lost our individuality, when everything ends:

Jabb akhrakh kart hoo Sabah koh; tum me Milat de kar sabhoo....Sri Chapaee Sahib...

Waheguru...

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then why create us? whats the point of doing anything. we are supposed to reach god. god sent guru nanak to us. why send guru nanak if god is going to choose who will jap naam and who wont. he wouldnt have to send guru nanak or sikhi because he was deciding who does bhagti. why is there kalyug? or any jugs? surely god wouldnt increase paap for his own enjoyment. bani describes a bond with waheguru as a marriage, we are supposed to fall in love with god. but are we falling in love or really going on a journey to god if he is making us do it. why reincarnate people who dont jap naam? the man who drinks alcohol or works off innocent people, it isnt there fault they are doing those things as god is making them do it.

im sorry if my questions annoy you (some people said i shouldnt question. im too nastic apparently).

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The question was actually mine, none of what I mentioned had anything to do with Sam Harris lol.

What you replied is the basic argument that Sam Harris makes against free will if I'm not mistaken. I'm still not sure though, after we get the thought what exactly determines the decision and would it be the same if all the conditions in the Universe were exactly* the same and repeated an indefinite amount of time?

Would they be the same every time?

I'm thinking about starting a topic in intellectual thread and we can debate this where I post this situation and have people debate one side vs the opposing. What do you think?

Lol yeh really good question though I believe both action and thought are done by God. The decision in my opinion would be dependent on intellect of the individual. The intellect is based on a persons life experiences, what they have studied in life, their up bringing, their responses to the 5 senses etc etc. But like you said in the simulation they had all the same experiences and everything was the same. Therefore it would be likely to be the same action every time but I am also aware of each visual and sensory stimulus does not necessary cause the same action it could be one of many learnt actions. It would be like the matrix when neo is with the architect and they are looking at the screens determining the possible actions he will do next. But the question is who determines that particular action, which I believe to be God as thought and action occur hundredths of seconds before we become consciously aware of them.

Yes that would be a great thing to do. I would also like to hear opposing views but the main reason I am against free will is that it if there was free will it would make God not all knowing... Also having no free will gives the solution to the karmic paradox I mentioned earlier. But I am always open to different opinions.

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When first created, our previous karams were zero, but despite this liberty, we then started doing things under the I fluency of maya.

When Waheguru created the jeev, it is Waheguru himself who comes to the world, in the form of the jeev. Waheguru, in the form of jeev, has to place himself under maya, otherwise the worldly game cannot be played out. Please read Ashtpadhi 21 of Sukhmani Sahib.

Once the jeev becomes liberated from maya, through Naam, the jeev will not go to its influence again:

When a water bubble floats on the water, it appears to be separate from the ocean, but when it bursts it becomes ocean roop. Once it becomes ocean roop, can you bring that particular bubble back?

When everything ceases to be, and all the jeevs become infused in Naam, then is no more individuality.

When Waheguru decides to create the universes again, then the same game takes place, but this time it won't be us, since we lost our individuality, when everything ends:

Jabb akhrakh kart hoo Sabah koh; tum me Milat de kar sabhoo....Sri Chapaee Sahib...

Waheguru...

You said "we then started doing things under the I fluency of maya."

Can I ask you what is the difference between the nature of maya and sargun nature of God?

Also you say through naam one gets liberated. I assume you mean they burn away their karama by naam right? You also have given the analogy of the bubble bursting and losing individuality once karma is "burnt" away. If so then what is the difference in the outcome between a person who starts of with no karam and one who burns away their karma, shouldn't they both have no individuality as the outcome is the same.

You say waheguru places himself under maya so does he lose his true nature when this happens? Or does both maya and nirgun remain dependent of each other even when waheguru places himself in maya?

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mokham singh ji, i prefer your argument.

i think of it as a game. god set a tamasha (guru nanak called it a play). god watches this game or play folding out. the aim of the game is to reunite with waheguru. in the way is maya, who stops us. maya attempts to break us down and stop us. but god wants us to make it. god protects players who ask him. so like bubbles from the ocean. the bubble wants to merge back. but maya locks the water in a bubble. we have to escape. this is naam simrans job. guru nanak came to break us out (miti dhund jag chanun hoa). so we play. some get influenced by karma. others wont. those who get bad karma and dnt win the game (unite with god) have to replay (reincarnation). the karm from previous lives determines the cards they are dealt with in the next. bad karam is worse cards. but we can all make it out if we get luck or kirpa done on us. "jo to prem khela ka chao". the game of love. we all play, but some lose to maya so they dnt step on the path and gove their ego up to guru sahib. late night thoughts :D. sorry if it makes no sense.

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If you read Ashtpadhi 21, Sri Sukhmani Sahib, that explains why Waheguru creates the us, and why he plays the game. He creates demons, and deities. As kids, when we wanted to play a game of cards, play chess etc, we had to find an opponent, otherwise the game couldn't be played.

Why do people enjoy going into a maize? Why do people enjoy playing games? It's the same with Waheguru...

It is a cruel world, in terms of pain and suffering, but there exists remedy too; Waheguru expects us to follow Gurbani.

Guru Nanak Ji came to earth in the purest form. I.e. aap Naryan kala Dhaar...to show us the way to salvation.

He creates 4 yugs, turn by turn, and then wraps everything up, until he wants to do it all over again.

The world is a cruel place; perhaps that's why 10th Patshahi in Jaap Sahib describes Waheguru as kroor Karmeh. I.e. doer of cruel things, but Maharaj does namo to that aspect of Waheguru too...

Waheguru....

Nice post

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Lol yeh really good question though I believe both action and thought are done by God. The decision in my opinion would be dependent on intellect of the individual. The intellect is based on a persons life experiences, what they have studied in life, their up bringing, their responses to the 5 senses etc etc. But like you said in the simulation they had all the same experiences and everything was the same. Therefore it would be likely to be the same action every time but I am also aware of each visual and sensory stimulus does not necessary cause the same action it could be one of many learnt actions. It would be like the matrix when neo is with the architect and they are looking at the screens determining the possible actions he will do next. But the question is who determines that particular action, which I believe to be God as thought and action occur hundredths of seconds before we become consciously aware of them.

Yes that would be a great thing to do. I would also like to hear opposing views but the main reason I am against free will is that it if there was free will it would make God not all knowing... Also having no free will gives the solution to the karmic paradox I mentioned earlier. But I am always open to different opinions.

Was actually thinking of this and "The One". Yeah, I was actually starting to lean towards no free will despite posing that question/scenario because if literally everything in the Universe including experiences and whatnot in everyone in the Universe could be replicated (theoretically) an infinite amount of times, it should be the same. Then again when someone does Naam and recites Vaheguru's name don't they get rid of karam and start to merge back into Vaheguru even while alive? Only way to get out of karam and charasi lakh joon is through Guru Sahib.

Good to see others thinking about these things lol, really is insane to think about especially considering how little we know and how massive even the observable Universe is. Who knows how many times we've lived and what we've seen in our previous janams. After a point i think there is only so much we can speculate on and rest depends on how much simran we do and answers may come then.

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Guru Nanak Ji came to earth as the pure embodiment of Waheguru, I.e. not under any influence of maya.

We came to earth, as embodiment of Waheguru, but under the influence of maya.

As jeevs, Waheguru is under the influence of maya in that role, but at the same time, he remains detached:

Electricity is powering my computer, the computer is not electricity, the computer is electricity roop. If I smash my computer, that will not affect the national grid electricity supply.

Waheguru adopts the two roops, I.e. Sargun and nirgun. On a sunny day we place 100 buckets of water in the garden, the suns rays reflect in each bucket, that does not mean that there are 100 individual suns, there is only one sun, but 100 reflections. If we destroy one bucket, have we destroyed the sun? If we destroy all buckets, the sun still remains intact.

Waheguru is within us, and separate at the same time. If you look in the mirror, you will see your face. If you look into 100 angled mirrors, you will see 100 of you, but in reality, you are one, not 100.

Waheguru has the ability to ek and anek, at the same time. Just as the sun remains detached from the buckets of water, but gives its rays to the water, just as the 100 mirrors cause the illusion of you being 100; in the same way Wahegurus pritibimbh is within us, in reflection form, but separate, at the same time too...

Waheguru...

waheguru. i think i finally understood sargun nirgun.

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Was actually thinking of this and "The One". Yeah, I was actually starting to lean towards no free will despite posing that question/scenario because if literally everything in the Universe including experiences and whatnot in everyone in the Universe could be replicated (theoretically) an infinite amount of times, it should be the same. Then again when someone does Naam and recites Vaheguru's name don't they get rid of karam and start to merge back into Vaheguru even while alive?

Good to see others thinking about these things lol, really is insane to think about especially considering how little we know and how massive even the observable Universe is. Who knows how many times we've lived and what we've seen in our previous janams. After a point i think there is only so much we can speculate on and rest depends on how much simran we do and answers may come then.

Yeh tell me about it. A lot of the stuff just goes way over my head :blush2: God's creation and attributes have no limit.. it's just too much to comprehend lol. To be frank my interpretation of naam has changed over the years as I have been using gurbani to test my understanding of naam and the meaning of it. I've come to the conclusion that understanding naam for even 1 sec burns all karma.. But that is another topic in itself and we could open a topic talking about what is naam? As I don't want to side track from this topic.

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Guru Nanak Ji came to earth as the pure embodiment of Waheguru, I.e. not under any influence of maya.

We came to earth, as embodiment of Waheguru, but under the influence of maya.

As jeevs, Waheguru is under the influence of maya in that role, but at the same time, he remains detached:

Electricity is powering my computer, the computer is not electricity, the computer is electricity roop. If I smash my computer, that will not affect the national grid electricity supply.

Waheguru adopts the two roops, I.e. Sargun and nirgun. On a sunny day we place 100 buckets of water in the garden, the suns rays reflect in each bucket, that does not mean that there are 100 individual suns, there is only one sun, but 100 reflections. If we destroy one bucket, have we destroyed the sun? If we destroy all buckets, the sun still remains intact.

Waheguru is within us, and separate at the same time. If you look in the mirror, you will see your face. If you look into 100 angled mirrors, you will see 100 of you, but in reality, you are one, not 100.

Waheguru has the ability to ek and anek, at the same time. Just as the sun remains detached from the buckets of water, but gives its rays to the water, just as the 100 mirrors cause the illusion of you being 100; in the same way Wahegurus pritibimbh is within us, in reflection form, but separate, at the same time too...

Waheguru...

I agree with your post above but I don't agree with your understanding of karama as you contradict yourself on the effects of having no karma. I understand what you are saying but it doesn't seem to me to be correct. I thank you for taking your time out to reply to my posts.

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mokham singh ji, i prefer your argument.

i think of it as a game. god set a tamasha (guru nanak called it a play). god watches this game or play folding out. the aim of the game is to reunite with waheguru. in the way is maya, who stops us. maya attempts to break us down and stop us. but god wants us to make it. god protects players who ask him. so like bubbles from the ocean. the bubble wants to merge back. but maya locks the water in a bubble. we have to escape. this is naam simrans job. guru nanak came to break us out (miti dhund jag chanun hoa). so we play. some get influenced by karma. others wont. those who get bad karma and dnt win the game (unite with god) have to replay (reincarnation). the karm from previous lives determines the cards they are dealt with in the next. bad karam is worse cards. but we can all make it out if we get luck or kirpa done on us. "jo to prem khela ka chao". the game of love. we all play, but some lose to maya so they dnt step on the path and gove their ego up to guru sahib. late night thoughts :D. sorry if it makes no sense.

Meh hoo param purkh ka daasa; dekhan ayo Jagath tamasha....10th Patshahi...

It is all a tamasha, and Naam is the only salvation. The beauty of Naam is that it starts to drown maya out, so eventually one is left with the Anand of Naam. The person still plays the worldly game, but now the the world is a playground, rather than a battlefield.

Prisons are full of inmates, who have to abide by the rules and endure suffering. The prison has a Governor, security guards, and visitors; despite the latter being in prison, they're not there to suffer, they are free to come and go as they please.

If you reas the last pankti of Ashpadhi 21, it says it's up to Waheguru whom he wants to play the game of maya, and whom he wants to play the game of Naam...

Waheguru.....

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Meh hoo param purkh ka daasa; dekhan ayo Jagath tamasha....10th Patshahi...

It is all a tamasha, and Naam is the only salvation. The beauty of Naam is that it starts to drown maya out, so eventually one is left with the Anand of Naam. The person still plays the worldly game, but now the the world is a playground, rather than a battlefield.

Prisons are full of inmates, who have to abide by the rules and endure suffering. The prison has a Governor, security guards, and visitors; despite the latter being in prison, they're not there to suffer, they are free to come and go as they please.

If you reas the last pankti of Ashpadhi 21, it says it's up to Waheguru whom he wants to play the game of maya, and whom he wants to play the game of Naam...

Waheguru.....

I love your analogies!

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I agree with your post above but I don't agree with your understanding of karama as you contradict yourself on the effects of having no karma. I understand what you are saying but it doesn't seem to me to be correct. I thank you for taking your time out to reply to my posts.

That's the Beauty of Gurmat, Khalsa Ji, discussing views, bouncing ideas off each other; thank you too, for replies. As long as we can discuss things, without any bitterness, then all is well...

Waheguru....

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