Jump to content

Is Guru Granth Sahib Your Teacher / Guide Or Is It A Diety


panthicunity
 Share

Recommended Posts

Whats the difference b/w saroop of sggs and the pdf version ?



To me there is no difference , yes I don't do chavar or prakash/sukhasan of my laptop but I try to read as much as I can along with translations - but in the end its the same Shabad guru - physical saroop or pdf , IMHO key is to incorporate the lessons in our day to day life - taki " halat palat mukh ujjal hoye " - we are saved in this life and hereafter.


Share your thoughts

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its a deity if your relation is all about mehar and based on pure emotion wherein most of the time you are imploring guru to fulfil your wishes.

Its a Guru (literally - dispeller of darkness) - if you study it , contemplate (sabsai upar gur shabad beechar) on it and try to incorporate the teachings in your day to day lives.

Share your thoughts !

UKL = 100% agree with you Paji

You are right and it's shame that the vast majority of the population see the GGS as a deity and a wish fulfilling machine. GGS is not here for us to fulfill our wishes it is here for us to lose our egos and follow hukam.

UKL = Agreed Paji

I disagree with you on this point. The Guru is my guide, my teacher, to help me try to understand Waheguru. The light of Waheguru shines through our Guru,

but I do not worship Guru Ji, I worship Waheguru - Guru Nanak strictly condemned worship of anything other than the formless Almighty.

That's my view anyway. :)

UKL = I agree with you Paji

When I read passages about the Guru "being" God, I believe that means the Gurus have the light of God. Equally, so do we all, as God is everything and pervades all matter and the universe, but the Gurus were on such a high spiritual enlightenment and had such a deep connection with Waheguru that they could guide the rest of us.

It's a very deep, complex issue, but I personally don't like to say the Gurus "are" God, because then people take that to mean Gurus are incarnations of God, and that limits perception of the almighty to just one physical entity. That's a concept which Guru Nanak Dev Ji rejected - God does not come down to Earth as incarnations (Ram, Krishna etc), but we are all part of God.

UKL = Agree with you Paji

Have a read of this, it's an ebook of bhai randhir singh taking on a christian in a discussion about guru granth sahib being an idol and diety. So it might be relevant to the discussion

http://www.vidhia.com/Bhai%20Randheer%20Singh%20Ji/Is-bowing-to-Guru-Granth-Sahib-Ji-akin-to-idol-worship.pdf

Btw brushing your teeth, taking a bath, washing your hand are all rituals. They have deeper meanings behind them, sikhi doesn't reject rituals it rejects blind rituals- things which have no phaal or fruit or any spiritual merit like throwing an idol in the river or throwing water backwards, or kissing the black stone of mecca, or throwing stones at the devil represented in mecca, or bowing to the pagan temple kaba. Guru shows the true path of bhakti is in the heart that god resides within that. If we are going to equate nitnem to lipservice then you got to realize the power of gurbani as it is to other man made books.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਇਫਤਰਾ ਭਾਈ ਦਿਲ ਕਾ ਫਿਕਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

The Vedas and the Scriptures are only make-believe,

O Siblings of Destiny; they do not relieve the anxiety

of the heart. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 727)

UKL = Good point Paji

Veerji imho the Shabad should be the real guru - the guide , the teacher , the dispeller of darkness - not the saroop

Bani also says - "devi deva poojiye kya mango kya dey" .

UKL = 100% agree with you. Shabad Bani is our true Guru without a doubt.

Suppose i am unlettered man and is not able to read SGGS ji. Am i debarred from God realization?

UKL = Absolutely not Bhai Sahib. Sikhi is universal and for the illiterate as well as the literate. Gurbani can vocally be heard by the illiterate as well and thus we will often find more dedication to Sikhi amongst the illiterate than amongst the so-called educated classes.

Gur-Man-Tar

Man=Mind.

Tar=Tool

Why a tool ??

How does One steady their mind and stop following their thoughts ?

Well, I certainly need a Tool to help me with this and mine is the Gurmantar-Waheguru !

UKL = But Lucky Singh Paji it is strongly believed by many that Naam Simran must be accompanied by practical action towards Sarbat Da Bhala in order to avoid it becoming a modern day ritual. Spiritual attainments surely only accompany practical action, would you not agree Paji?

I think you misunderstood the point of his post, he was saying that by repeating something blindly with no good faith or intentions, you won't get anywhere.

Nothing wrong with rituals, as long as they're not blind; they should serve a purpose, i.e. to better oneself, help the panth, and improve society.

UKL = 100% agree with you Sunny Paji

Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not God.

The first thing Sikhs read every morning is the Mool Mantar and it is very clear that Ik Oankar is "without form".

Ik Oankar is not a physical object which can bee seen with the eyes, neither the Guru Granth Sahib nor the 10 Gurus which came before it were God- God-conscious beings, certainly, but not God.

That is my understanding :)

UKL = I agree with you Aman Singh. Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj were not their own prayers to themself as Mool Mantar clarifies clearly.

Incarnations? Really?

The Mool Mantar also mentions how Ik Oankar is "Ajooni"= without births and deaths, which kinda makes that argument impossible. There is no concept of incarnations in Sikhi because God is not born and God does not pass away. If the Gurus were God-incarnates, then why not Jesus Christ?

UKL = Paji it's ironic since our Guru Sahib wholeheartedly rejected Jesus, Krishna and Ram being Avtars of God that Vedc influences have seen certain Sikhs copy the Christians and Hindu's in this avtar-hood game when Shabad Bani (Guru) is supreme Truth.

But the Gurus always told us never to worship them, and that Akaal Purakh is formless. If you wanna say Guru is God, then we're all God, in the sense that Waheguru is all-pervading and everything and everywhere. The Gurus achieved the ultimate level of realisation of Truth and Naam, and taught us how to work towards doing the same. This passage from the SikhiWiki website sums it up nicely:

"

He is the teacher who shows the way. He is not an intercessor, but an exemplar and guide. He is no avatar or God’s incarnation, but it is through him that God instructs men. He is the perfectly realized soul; at the same time, he is capable of leading the believers to the highest state of spiritual enlightenment.

The Guru has been called the ladder or the rowboat by means of which one reaches God. He is the revealer of God’s word. Through him God’s word, sabda, enters human history. The Guru is the voice of God, the Divine self-revelation. Man turns to the Guru for instruction because of his wisdom and his moral piety. He indicates the path to liberation.

It is the Guru who brings the love and nature of God to the believer. It is he who brings that grace of God by which haumai or egoity is mastered. The Guru is witness to God’s love of His creation. He is God’s hukam, i.e. Will, made concrete."

UKL = Agree with you Sunny Paji

Whats the difference b/w saroop of sggs and the pdf version ?

To me there is no difference , yes I don't do chavar or prakash/sukhasan of my laptop but I try to read as much as I can along with translations - but in the end its the same Shabad guru - physical saroop or pdf , IMHO key is to incorporate the lessons in our day to day life - taki " halat palat mukh ujjal hoye " - we are saved in this life and hereafter.

Share your thoughts

UKL = I agree with you Paji and given the Beadbi of Maharaj online, i think we need to keep cooler heads in instances of physical beadbi of saroops ... as it was pointless for three Gursikhs serve out decades rotting in jail over that Pakhandi Sadh in Rajasthan Surajmani ... when they could have more constructively help the Qaum by being active and free to tackle abortion clinics, drug and alcohol peddlars as well as those that discriminate in Punjab or those bureaucrats that do not help our Panth's children gain an adequate education.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If i present you with a line that directly says Guru is God from Gurbani, will you accept it?

Go for it, but as I said before, it comes down to interpretation. There are passages in Guru Ji about reincarnation, and also passages about heaven and hell. Are we take both of these literally? That would conflict with each other, so at least one of them has to be a metaphor or have a deeper meaning behind it. The point I'm trying to make veerji, is don't take Gurbani at face value - it is poetry, the most beautiful poetry ever written, and as with all poetry, uses poetical devices to illustrate its point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are poems written on science. These poems on science are all factual. But why use poetic form to write science? Why write any message in poetic form? People with less knowledge would not take these poems written on science at face value. Simply because the facts are written in poetic form. With time i can see a lot more ignorance taking place. As many more people will call science false just because some writers have taken a poetic way to convey a message on science.

Something written in poetic form does not make the whole statement just a metaphor with half truths in it. This is one of the biggest mistakes any person can make when reading Gurbani or science for that matter. Poetry can be used to express the truth as it is used in Gurbani and science. Poetic form delivers the message home a lot quicker and sticks in the mind a lot longer. In Gurbani poetic form is used to instill a true message in a person.

Also absolute statement is a statement which cannot be wrong. Here is an example of an absolute statement:

​It will be sunny all day today.

In this statement there is no uncertainty on how the weather will be today or room for interpretation. The interpretation of this absolute statement is simple as today it will be sunny all day. If a person like you came along and said, "I interpret this absolute statement to say that the writer was saying it will be partially sunny today." Then every person that understands absolute statements will know you disagree with the absolute statement. No one that understands absolute statements will say you interpret it differently because there is only one clear interpretation of such statements.

Here is Gurbani in a absolute statement saying Guru is God:

गुरु नानकु नानकु हरि सोइ ॥४॥७॥९॥
Gur Nānak Nānak har so▫e. ||4||7||9||
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9|| ang 864

Poetry is used to deliver a message in a particular style. Gurbani was written at a time when the most prominent members of society were uneducated, illiterate Hindus and Muslims. These people would not understand Guru Nanak's philosophy as it was, it was so revolutionary and amazing that they simply wouldn't comprehend it all! Thus, metaphors and literacy devices were used to convey the message via poetry.

Also, what constitutes an "absolute statement" is subjective. To you, this may an absolute statement, but to me, it is not. I see it as poetic metaphor to describe the fact that Nanak was the most perfectly realised soul - he has soul had totally united with his Creator, the almighty Akaal Purakh. Thus Nanak "was" God in the sense that he had merged with the light of the Akaal, but he was not an incarnation of Waheguru, since Waheguru is beyond limiting physical form - and we realise Waheguru through the grace of the Guru. That's my understanding of it anyway, based on the Gurbani I've read and what I've studied of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's incredible philosophy, teachings, and way of life.

EDIT: Just come across the video posted by Basics of Sikhi, illusrates my point quite nicely about God having no form :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Poetry is used to deliver a message in a particular style. Gurbani was written at a time when the most prominent members of society were uneducated, illiterate Hindus and Muslims. These people would not understand Guru Nanak's philosophy as it was, it was so revolutionary and amazing that they simply wouldn't comprehend it all! Thus, metaphors and literacy devices were used to convey the message via poetry.

Also, what constitutes an "absolute statement" is subjective. To you, this may an absolute statement, but to me, it is not. I see it as poetic metaphor to describe the fact that Nanak was the most perfectly realised soul - he has soul had totally united with his Creator, the almighty Akaal Purakh. Thus Nanak "was" God in the sense that he had merged with the light of the Akaal, but he was not an incarnation of Waheguru, since Waheguru is beyond limiting physical form - and we realise Waheguru through the grace of the Guru. That's my understanding of it anyway, based on the Gurbani I've read and what I've studied of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's incredible philosophy, teachings, and way of life.

EDIT: Just come across the video posted by Basics of Sikhi, illusrates my point quite nicely about God having no form :)

Where do i begin. Show me where the literary devices are used in the Gurbani i presented?

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Break the line down and show me these literary devices in the above tuk.

Next absolute statements are not subjective. Show me where the subjectivity is in the example I gave you and the Gurbani tuk.

​It will be sunny all day today.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Break it down for me here.

Lastly, the singh in the video is speaking about God's form. We are speaking about Guru is God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where do i begin. Show me where the literary devices are used in the Gurbani i presented?

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Break the line down and show me these literary devices in the above tuk.

Next absolute statements are not subjective. Show me where the subjectivity is in the example I gave you and the Gurbani tuk.

​It will be sunny all day today.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥

Break it down for me here.

Lastly, the singh in the video is speaking about God's form. We are speaking about Guru is God.

I wasn't talking about literary devices in the specific part of Gurbani you quoted, I was talking generally about the fact that you can't take Gurbani at face value, you have to understand the meaning behind the message. I'm not very good at explaining myself here, but I came across an interesting article which explains what I'm trying to say:

http://dailysikhupdates.com/2013/09/22/the-use-of-metaphor-in-gurbani-and-how-to-understand-when-interpreting-shabads/

Furthermore, of course absolute statements are absoute, but re-read what I wrote - who defines what is an absolute statement and what is not? You may think that the line you quoted is absolute, but that is your opinion; personally, I do not think it is absolute. The subjectivity, as I said before, is that you believe it literally means the Guru is God as an incarnation or avatar, but I believe it means that the Guru has the light of Waheguru.

Yes, the Singh was speaking about God's form - and God is formless, exactly what I was saying, so it wouldn't make sense that God could be limited to physical boundaries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Go for it, but as I said before, it comes down to interpretation. There are passages in Guru Ji about reincarnation, and also passages about heaven and hell. Are we take both of these literally? That would conflict with each other, so at least one of them has to be a metaphor or have a deeper meaning behind it. The point I'm trying to make veerji, is don't take Gurbani at face value - it is poetry, the most beautiful poetry ever written, and as with all poetry, uses poetical devices to illustrate its point.

How do you know that these things do not exist. Do you believe in existence of soul?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share


  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • yeh it's true, we shouldn't be lazy and need to learn jhatka shikaar. It doesn't help some of grew up in surrounding areas like Slough and Southall where everyone thought it was super bad for amrit dharis to eat meat, and they were following Sant babas and jathas, and instead the Singhs should have been normalising jhatka just like the recent world war soldiers did. We are trying to rectifiy this and khalsa should learn jhatka.  But I am just writing about bhog for those that are still learning rehit. As I explained, there are all these negative influences in the panth that talk against rehit, but this shouldn't deter us from taking khanda pahul, no matter what level of rehit we are!
    • How is it going to help? The link is of a Sikh hunter. Fine, but what good does that do the lazy Sikh who ate khulla maas in a restaurant? By the way, for the OP, yes, it's against rehit to eat khulla maas.
    • Yeah, Sikhs should do bhog of food they eat. But the point of bhog is to only do bhog of food which is fit to be presented to Maharaj. It's not maryada to do bhog of khulla maas and pretend it's OK to eat. It's not. Come on, bro, you should know better than to bring this Sakhi into it. Is this Sikh in the restaurant accompanied by Guru Gobind Singh ji? Is he fighting a dharam yudh? Or is he merely filling his belly with the nearest restaurant?  Please don't make a mockery of our puratan Singhs' sacrifices by comparing them to lazy Sikhs who eat khulla maas.
    • Seriously?? The Dhadi is trying to be cute. For those who didn't get it, he said: "Some say Maharaj killed bakras (goats). Some say he cut the heads of the Panj Piyaras. The truth is that they weren't goats. It was she-goats (ਬਕਰੀਆਂ). He jhatka'd she-goats. Not he-goats." Wow. This is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard in relation to Sikhi.
    • Instead of a 9 inch or larger kirpan, take a smaller kirpan and put it (without gatra) inside your smaller turban and tie the turban tightly. This keeps a kirpan on your person without interfering with the massage or alarming the masseuse. I'm not talking about a trinket but rather an actual small kirpan that fits in a sheath (you'll have to search to find one). As for ahem, "problems", you could get a male masseuse. I don't know where you are, but in most places there are professional masseuses who actually know what they are doing and can really relieve your muscle pains.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use