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Why Don't We Have A Gurdwara With Dasam Granth Sahibji Parkash In Ontario?


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This doesnt change the fact thag Guru Sahib has also spoken of Krishan Bhagwanji as God. All it does is show that Gurbani is complicated. And if the Gurus did not respect Devis then why would Pehli Paatshahi name his skn Laxmi? Let me guess.... That name Laxmi is referring to something or someone else riggt? Or he named his son after money and not the Devi?

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There is a difference about status of avtars per Hindu and sikh teachings. Hindus consider their avtars as supreme God or absolute divine authorities. Sikhism consider these avtars as creation of ak

Which quote is it ranjodh singh jee .. (you can use the serach function to find it)...... I study SGGS on a daily basis havent come across any ! Also I haven't found bani to be contradictory or 'hie

Sat Sri Akal Sangato, I always wonder why we dont have a Gurukar with DGSJi Parkash. It is possible, so why has it not been done yet? I am sure there are enough believers for the Gurukar to operate.

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veer ranjodh singh do you seriously believe rama's first fighting and later abondoning his pregnant wife a godly act

or krishna's stealing clothes of bathing young women ?

or shiva's killing modi's son .... I can go on and on

quote me where bani says krishna was god - bani says god never comes in human forms - parmatma is ajooni - just coz neo singh has an opinion on things doesnt it a fact.

also why do we need devi devtas when we can meditate on akaal purakh himself !

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You have been on this site for how long? And you have never come across the angs in GGSji where Guru Sahib says God came in the form of Krishan Bhagwanji? I shouldnt hve to tell you the quotes and lines as there are people on this site like neosingh and others who have mentioned what I did numerous times. And i already know Durga was made (saajkay) by Sadashiv. Thats the whole point of the line... They were made deliberately by God, not like me and you. I really dont see how you can degrade higher beings by quoting the Guru as if you hold the same authority.

RanaJodh Singh Jee, No doubt Krishan was a very powerful being. But to understand the Sikh view of Krishan from the point of view of Bani one needs to look no further from Chandi Di Vaar in Dasam Granth. Guru Jee says:

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

Oh Vaheguru, it is only because of your bestowed strength that Krishan was able to grab Kans by the hair and throw him.

Guru Jee also says:

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

Meaning, it is only because of your bestowed strength that Raam was able to kill Ravan with arrows.

All the Rakshas that Krishan and Raam killed was not their doing. It was Vaheguru who did it by working through them. But the credit of all these heroic deeds went to Krishan and Raam and so they were worshiped instead of Vaheguru. This is why I feel when Gurbani uses terms like Madhusudhan or Murari it is not referring to Krishan but to Vaheguru who indeed was the real power which killed the Rakshas Mor and Madhu through Krishan. So for us Murari and Madhusudan titles rightfully belong to Vaheguru.

In Guru Granth Sahib, Guru jee writes that even Harnaksh was killed by Vaheguru because he was about to killed Bhagat Prahladh. Or when Draupadhi was being disrobed, it was Vaheguru who had saved her honour when she began to do Simran with full Shardha. But again, these heroic deeds were attributed to Avtars of Vishnu. In Sri Dasam Granth, Vaheguru Himself says(Akal Purkh Baach) he had created Shiv, Vishnu and Brahma, the Devi Devtas and even the Rakshas/Asur.

But people in India forgot the real creator(Kartar) and began to worship His creation(Shiv and Vishnu). From time to time, with the Kripa of Vaheguru Bhagats such as Prahladh and Dhru would recognize the real power behind these creations and began to worship Vaheguru instead of the creation.

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I understand that the devi devtay were made the sadashiv but i still believe the gurus give respect to them because then they wouldnt say god acted through them. There is a quote that is explicitly praising krishan bhagwan and you cant be loke : "oh no forget that quote and place it under these quotes that seem to dis the devi devte" because your telling me to place a hierarchy on gurbani. You cant say one quote is more importat than the other. So if you think those quotes are in a hierarchy then your one basically saying there is a paradox in gurbani that is self contradictory. There is something that must explain the paradox of why one guru praises krishan and one seems to dis him. The only person on this site that has resolved this paradox without placing a hierarchy on gurbani lines and without saying gurbani is contradictory is neosingh. Im tired of people trying to say one ang is more valuable than anoter.

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I understand that the devi devtay were made the sadashiv but i still believe the gurus give respect to them because then they wouldnt say god acted through them. There is a quote that is explicitly praising krishan bhagwan and you cant be loke : "oh no forget that quote and place it under these quotes that seem to dis the devi devte" because your telling me to place a hierarchy on gurbani. You cant say one quote is more importat than the other. So if you think those quotes are in a hierarchy then your one basically saying there is a paradox in gurbani that is self contradictory. There is something that must explain the paradox of why one guru praises krishan and one seems to dis him. The only person on this site that has resolved this paradox without placing a hierarchy on gurbani lines and without saying gurbani is contradictory is neosingh. Im tired of people trying to say one ang is more valuable than anoter.

I agree that one should not disrespect any of the Avtars. They were spiritually elevated beings and they did good things and deserve respect for that. But pooja should only be of Akal. By worshiping the Avtars one can only go as far as Gian Khand where the Avtars are located. In fact Gurbani(Japji Sahib) states in Gian Khand there are many Krishans and Shivs(Kete Kaan Mahesh). If your goal is Gian Khand where Vaikunth is located then it is okay. But if one wants to go to Sach Khand then Naam Simran and Kirtan of Vaheguru is essential.

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Which quote is it ranjodh singh jee .. (you can use the serach function to find it)...... I study SGGS on a daily basis havent come across any !

Also I haven't found bani to be contradictory or 'hierarchical' as you might put it.

Jhonny ...

Abondoning your pregnant wife is hardly respectworthy .

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Jhonny ...

Abondoning your pregnant wife is hardly respectworthy .

The Avtars are respect worthy in the sense that they fought against tyrants of the time. Why disrespect them? The Avtars were not perfect, although they are spiritually elevated from humans, but like Humans they also made mistakes. Even Gurbani states Bhulan Andar Sabh ko, Abhul Guru Kartar. Everyone including the great Paigambars(prophets) and Avtars are Bhulanhar. Only Guru Jee and Vahaguru are infallible. That is why only Vaheguru is worthy of worship.

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ram fought for his wife

krishna's vile & foul means in battle of mahabharat are well know

killing kansa - I will take guru nanak's "Kans ched kya bada bhaya " over your personal opinion. Similarly "ravan mar kya bada bhaya" - make SGGS basis of your opinions and they will sound lot more palatable ....

Also will you respect someone who demeans women by stealing their clothes ?

Talking of fighting tyrants - how about bhai satwant singh , beant singh, sukha jinda ... who did it without having any personal beefs

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Ok, to be honest. Your opinion is of absolutely no value to me.

O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling. ||1||Pause||

ਕਰ ਧਰੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਉਧਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant.

ਦੁਹਸਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਸਭਾ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਅੰਬਰ ਲੇਤ ਉਬਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥
In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed. ||1||

ਗੋਤਮ ਨਾਰਿ ਅਹਲਿਆ ਤਾਰੀ ਪਾਵਨ ਕੇਤਕ ਤਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
You saved Ahliyaa, the wife of Gautam; how many have You purified and carried across?

ਐਸਾ ਅਧਮੁ ਅਜਾਤਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਤਉ ਸਰਨਾਗਤਿ ਆਈਅਲੇ ॥੨॥੨॥
Such a lowly outcaste as Naam Dayv has come seeking Your Sanctuary. ||2||2||
(SGGS : 988)

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥
The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||
( SGGS : 1082)

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ ॥
He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and the ceremonial tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.

(SGGS : 1105)

GGSJi has this BLATANT praise of Krishan. Its time you stopped trying to say the devi devtay and avtars are not respect worthy. If the Gurus thought that they would not have included this in GGSji. Stop trying to be the Guru. Keep your egoistic logical mind to yourself and accept the Gurus Bani. They have said it, now accept it. Dont try to bring your own theories in it and be like "oh no but the Gurus said KRishan is NOTHING but ANTS, so forget everythign else, Im just going to selectively listen to the Gurus Bani and disrespect the devi devtay and avtaars as if i hold the same authority as Guru Sahib". And Im not saying pray to the devi devta or avtaars. Im saying respect them. I dont think matha teking to the Devi devtay is bad either but I dont think it will give you mukhti. However, just like how I would chukaa my sees at the place where Mahabali Baba Deep Singh JI's head fell, I would bow my head to the place where Devi devta have come. Their not god, they are his/her soldiers.

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ram fought for his wife

krishna's vile & foul means in battle of mahabharat are well know

killing kansa - I will take guru nanak's "Kans ched kya bada bhaya " over your personal opinion. Similarly "ravan mar kya bada bhaya" - make SGGS basis of your opinions and they will sound lot more palatable ....

Also will you respect someone who demeans women by stealing their clothes ?

Talking of fighting tyrants - how about bhai satwant singh , beant singh, sukha jinda ... who did it without having any personal beefs

Panthic Unity Jee, Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the bases of my belief. But Dasam Bani is also Gurbani. Guru Jee in both Granths tells the people that the Avtars are not to be worshiped. They were sent for a specific task. The Avtars were fallible like humans and made mistakes. Guru Jee makes it clear that it was always Vaheguru who killed Kans, Ravan, and Harnaksh and not the Avtars who are given credit for these deeds.

If Sikhs need to do Parchar to others, disrespecting their beliefs is not the right approach. The greatness of Sikhi is self evident. One does not need to indulge in putting down or using derogatory language for other religions in order to show greatness of Sikhi.

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Ok, to be honest. Your opinion is of absolutely no value to me.

O my Father, Lord of wealth, blessed are You, long-haired, dark-skinned, my darling. ||1||Pause||

ਕਰ ਧਰੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਉਧਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥

You hold the steel chakra in Your hand; You came down from Heaven, and saved the life of the elephant.

ਦੁਹਸਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਸਭਾ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਅੰਬਰ ਲੇਤ ਉਬਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥

In the court of Duhsaasan, You saved the honor of Dropati, when her clothes were being removed. ||1||

ਗੋਤਮ ਨਾਰਿ ਅਹਲਿਆ ਤਾਰੀ ਪਾਵਨ ਕੇਤਕ ਤਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥

You saved Ahliyaa, the wife of Gautam; how many have You purified and carried across?

ਐਸਾ ਅਧਮੁ ਅਜਾਤਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਤਉ ਸਰਨਾਗਤਿ ਆਈਅਲੇ ॥੨॥੨॥

Such a lowly outcaste as Naam Dayv has come seeking Your Sanctuary. ||2||2||

(SGGS : 988)

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥

He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥

He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥

His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥

The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥

The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥੧੧॥

The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved Lord God; I cannot count all His limbs. ||11||

( SGGS : 1082)

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਬਿਰਾਜਿਤ ਦੇਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੁ ਜਮੁ ਡਰਿਓ ॥

He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and the ceremonial tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.

(SGGS : 1105)

GGSJi has this BLATANT praise of Krishan. Its time you stopped trying to say the devi devtay and avtars are not respect worthy. If the Gurus thought that they would not have included this in GGSji. Stop trying to be the Guru. Keep your egoistic logical mind to yourself and accept the Gurus Bani. They have said it, now accept it. Dont try to bring your own theories in it and be like "oh no but the Gurus said KRishan is NOTHING but ANTS, so forget everythign else, Im just going to selectively listen to the Gurus Bani and disrespect the devi devtay and avtaars as if i hold the same authority as Guru Sahib". And Im not saying pray to the devi devta or avtaars. Im saying respect them. I dont think matha teking to the Devi devtay is bad either but I dont think it will give you mukhti. However, just like how I would chukaa my sees at the place where Mahabali Baba Deep Singh JI's head fell, I would bow my head to the place where Devi devta have come. Their not god, they are his/her soldiers.

Superficially it may appear this way. But one needs to read this in the same light as the Japji Sahib Tukh:

Gur Ishar, Gur Gorakh Brahma, Gur Parbati Mai

Now a non Sikh would look at this tukh and think it is praising Is Ishar, Gorakh, Brama and Parvati but furthur study of this means "mere lei mera Guru hi Ishar Gorakh Brahma te Parbati Mai hai

Similarly the tukhs you presented which you think are praising Krishan is actually praising Vaheguru. ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ which means Oh Vaheguru you create many beautiful dark skinned Krishnas. Then Guru Jee goes on to praise Vaheguru's beauty since Vahaguru is Sarb Viapak(ਸਮਾਇਆ) i.e. present in all His creation. So it is Vaheguru's presence in his creation(Krishan) that he is praising as the real source of Krishan's attractive beauty not Krishan himself as most Indians attribute Krishan's beauty to Krishan.

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RanaJodh Singh Jee,

The way you are saying, there is another Shabad -

"Panchali ko Raaj sabha mein, Raam Naam Sudh aayi". But Panchli ko raam naam sudh taan nahin aayi, Mahabharata serial (made by B.R. Chopra) shows she chanted name of Krishna!. So, we have a contradiction here - SGGS Jee says, she chanted/remebered Raam-Naam, but Mahabharata serial says, she remembered Krishna.

I would definately go with my GURU as this is Dhur Ki Baani - Guru Nanak Ki Baani - which means, this Raam-Naam is different - neither it is Sri Raam Chandra Jee nor it is Sri Krishna Jee.

As per your write-ups, wherever it comes Narayana/Gobind/Raam in SGGS Jee - either it is Sri Krishna or Sri Raam Chandra Jee.

Well, let's look at some baani of Bhagat's born before Sri Raam Chandra Jee -

Bhagat Prahlad Jee

================

ਹਰਿ ਜ੝ਗ੝ ਜ੝ਗ੝ ਭਗਤ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਪੈਜ ਰਖਦਾ ਆਇਆ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ
In each and every age, He creates His devotees and preserves their honor, Lord King.

ਹਰਣਾਖਸ੝ ਦ੝ਸਟ੝ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਪ੝ਰਹਲਾਦ੝ ਤਰਾਇਆ
The Lord killed the wicked Harnaakhash, and saved Prahlaad.

"The above Baani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee says, In every Yuga, he creates his bhagats, "Paij rakhda aaya Raam Raaje", does this "Raam Raaje mean Raja Raam Chandra Jee"? How can Raja raam Chandra Jee take care of Prahalada, when Prahlada was born thousands of years before Sri Raam Chandra Jee?

One more important thing, If Akal Purakh sent Sri Raam Chandra Jee as 14-Kalan Avataar, Sri Krishna Jee as 16-Kalaan Avatar, they are not specific to HINDU'S, as they never created any thing such as HINDUISM. They are earlier Akal Puraak Avataars, with specific and limited capabilities, and not Sarab-Kala-Samrath.

As to the Dasam Granth and your quotes where you say it praises Devte, here you go. -

Patshahi Dasvin Chaupayi

=====================

Mahadev Ko Kehat Sada Siv, Nirankar Ka Chinat Neh Bhiv

"People say Shiva as the Maha-Dev, but don't know the secret of the formless god."

This particular Line(s) and meaning at 02:29, but start listening from start.

Patshahi Dasvin Swavye

====================

Soor Soorardan Sudh Sudhayek, Sant Smooh anek mati ke -

Bed Puran, Kateb Kuran, Jamin Jaman sabaan ke pekhe.

Brahma Mahesar Bisan Sachipat, Ant phase jam phas parenge,

Je Nar Sri Pat Ke pras hain, pag te nar pher naan deh dharange.

"The above Baani says Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh will end up in the cycle of death/birth, whereas a true GurSikh attached to 1 Nirankar will leave the cycle of birth.death!.

Kahun le pahan pooj dhareo, sir kahun le ling gare latkayo,

kahun likhiyo har awachi disa mein, kahun pacha ko sees nivayo.

kou butaan ko poojat hai, pasu kou mritan ko poojan dhaayo,

koor kireya urjheyo sab hi jag, sri bhagwaan ko bhed naan paayo.

See Video below for all meanings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUrwFPiQDi

Dasam Granth baani prakash, please do it, but it does not praises DEVTE :), nor does SGGS Jee.

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